Is there in fact collusion going on in MLB? With all of this backlash on the various trades, it is becoming more clear to me that if the MLBPA did not have Tony Clark as the union president, the union would clean the clock of MLB and it’s own lightweight, Rob Manfred. Boston is not hurting in revenue or operating income, and can certainly afford the salaries and resultant luxury tax if they had retained both Betts and Price. But their owner, John Henry, stated that the goal was to get under the CBT threshold and reset the luxury tax clock. Why? That was also the stated goal for NYY and LAD a couple years back. Why? And the Chicago Cubs are fighting the same threshold as is Boston this year, and they want to make changes that are apparently being hampered due to salary restrictions. Why? Is there an unwritten rule amongst the owners after the 2016 CBA that teams needed to respect the threshold as a de facto salary cap? While MLB cannot mandate (a word avoided by all of the big spending teams) that they reset the tax at least once every three years, they certainly seem to get teams to adhere to it. Why? Are we seeing a version of collusion part deaux? Just exactly where is Peter Ueberroth?
NYY, LAD, Boston, Chicago Cubs, Philadelphia, SF, and NYM are not small market teams and none should be trying to back away from the luxury tax if their team is helped. No team (business) wants to pay unnecessarily a tax, but if it is an investment in winning a WS, then these teams should not shy away from exceeding the CBT threshold, even for three consecutive years. The tax should not be an impediment to investing in one’s team. If the team can afford it, go for it.
That is why I believe that MLB is an accessory to this debacle (as Mark calls it). John Henry would not be trying to trade Mookie Betts if there was not some outside pressure to get under the threshold. If he could not afford it, he would never have agreed to the excessive contracts he has already inked for David Price, JDM, Chris Sale, Xander Bogaerts, and Nathan Eovaldi. Mookie has never said that he wanted out of Boston, just that he wanted to test free agency. Henry should have kept Mookie and then told his agent to come back with the best offer and we will see what we can do. If he wanted to sign Mookie the ballplayer, he should never let the tax dissuade him, because he can afford it, UNLESS someone else is saying to do otherwise.
Since 2011, Boston’s operating income has been:
2011 – $25.4MM
2012 – $23.9MM
2013 – $25.3MM
2014 – $49.2MM
2015 – $43.2MM
2016 – $78.6MM
2017 – $86.0MM
2018 – $84.0MM
That is an eight year average of more than $50MM annually. Boston was over the threshold in 2018 and still made $84.0MM in operating income. We do not know what the 2019 operating income was, but by winning the 2018 WS, I would imagine the bottom line did not go down, even if the payroll went up (slightly).
The new CBT threshold began in 2016 and lo and behold, the operating income increased nearly 82% for Boston. Both NYY and LAD were over the threshold in 2016 and 2017, and they felt it necessary to be under the threshold in 2018, and both teams did. I do believe that the Dodgers had an extra incentive because of the debt service concerns and not knowing what MLB would do if they did not get under the threshold. But NYY had no such concerns and that was a goal of theirs as well. Now Boston’s owner says that the goal is to get under the CBT threshold to not exceed the threshold for the third consecutive year.
Doesn’t it seem odd that each of the three supposedly wealthiest teams work feverishly to get below the threshold so as not to exceed it three consecutive years, but then come back and say they will be able to go over the threshold again after they reset the penalty? Doesn’t it also seem odd that each team stated it was a goal, but they were under no MANDATE to do so? I am generally not a conspiracy theorist, but it sure seems like someone from MLB is telling them to get below, without saying it out loud. There is no way the Yankees, Red Sox, or Dodgers are worried about a tax if they believe they can win with players that exceed the threshold.
Tony Clark needs to give way to a more expert union negotiator because the MLBPA should be in a position to increase the CBT threshold exponentially, and install a salary floor, or teams need to lose their revenue sharing. I am not a fan of the DH, but it is not going away, so the MLBPA should be able to insist that the NL institute the DH for the NL beginning in 2022. Even with the larger FA contracts being let this year, there were only four that exceeded $100MM, and not one small market team was able to grab any of them. This year followed a couple of weak years. Even last year’s big money boys, Harper and Machado, settled for less than what was expected. Mike Moustakas had to take back to back single year contracts. Dallas Keuchel and Craig Kimbrel did not sign until June. Scott Boras’ clients are happy, but how many others? The players are in a good position to extract some favorable negotiations if they handle it correctly.
Sure the larger market teams will be in a better position to compete annually because of their revenues, but it is time to tell the Pirates ownership to spend or sell, and to see what the Marlins can now do under new ownership. The A’s and Rays are showing that they can contend without being big market high revenue teams. The A’s could very well beat the Astros for the AL West crown, and while NYY is the heavy favorite to win the NL East, Tampa could very easily move ahead of Boston, especially without Mookie. Toronto, Cincinnati, and Chicago White Sox are showing signs that they are ready to compete beginning in 2020. KC won a WS in 2015.
If the tax is not onerous for the owners of the larger revenue teams, then why the need to get under the threshold? This is where I believe that there is an unwritten rule telling teams that they need to adhere to the luxury tax (as close as possible) and for sure to get under it at least once every three years. MLBPA can stifle this collusion by increasing the threshold so it is not a de facto salary cap, and minimizing the penalty. If I were negotiating for the MLBPA, and I was advised that the owners want to stabilize the smaller revenue teams, I would counsel the union to advise the owners that they should do it in a way that does not impede player salaries.
The CBT sets the incentives, and the teams, being rational economic actors, look to avoid the most draconian penalties (and in some cases, any penalties). I don’t think it’s collusion, just normal and predictable behavior in response to the current incentive structure. All that said, I agree that if you want to change the behavior you have to raise the threshold and lower the penalties.
Why is it collusion if the owners agree to do what is best for them, but not collusion when the players do the same? Salaries are out of control. Fans are being gouged to attend games.
Thanks AC, love hearing the business side of things, seen and unseen! What’s your prediction for the Mookie mess?
Just got word progress is being made and both sides are hopeful
Isn’t it crazy that pitchers and catchers report in 5 days ??
What the…….gezz
Twins and Dodges are in talks and Boston and Dodges in talks as well, per Ken Rosenthal
Would be interesting to see if the threshold’s penalties were only financial
I’m obviously uninformed, and this is pure use-less speculation but I find it hard to believe there is any kind of formal mandate.
But it is gross.
Heyman, Speier and Rosenthal report positive momentum.
Bluto, you are right there is no FORMAL mandate.
No speculation is useless. It may be uninformed, but it is one’s opinion and therefore not useless.
I haven’t posted on a Dodgers site in 18 months. (Since MLB.com removed their message boards). I’m a Dodgers fan of over 65 yrs. I don’t post much because I type so slow (two fingers, hunt and peck) and I’m not as knowledgeable as the people that post here but I do enjoy reading your comments. Hey, SoCalBum, I see that you post on this site. It’s good to see you. btw, does anyone know where most of the posters from MLB.com are now posting?
Great to see you Hodges! Hope all is good with you. Others from MLB post only on occasion. Do not be a stranger; great group of Dodgers fans here; you will enjoy participating.
All is good with me SoCal. Hope the same is true for you. Can’t wait for ST although I still feel a bit sad every time we pass the Vero Beach exit on 95 (we’re just 1 exit south). Who knows? Maybe my wife and I will live out our Golden years in Az. We have discussed it.
Hello there hodges 54!!!!!!! I occasionally visit here now, began sometime last week as far as this site goes. It’s been a strange off season to say the least, seeing Dodgers miss out on all FA’s. But now this proposed trade with Boston and the Twins has everyone in a holding pattern. Do you want to see Betts and price traded here? I am good with it as Betts gives team a needed RH bat and potential lead off hitter. But he is a 1 year rental, so I at least am glad Dodgers won’t give up that much for him but wss. It’s still a mystery to me as for the real reason that the Dodgers .com comment board on MLB.com went by the waste side.
Hi Paul. Good to see you. I was really happy about the trade. Before the trade, most Sportscasters said the Dodgers would have to give up 1 or 2 top prospects. When that turned out not to be the case I was all for it. But, alas, perhaps it was not meant to be. As you said, wss.
I really have no opinion on collusion. The owners are certainly capable, but I could argue it both ways. Odds are, we will never really know.
I can and have argued it both ways. But today I see collusion, because I do not for one minute believe that John Henry wants to trade Mookie Betts. David Price? Sure. But not Mookie. I also do not believe that Henry wants to trade Price more than he wants to keep Mookie. Why did NYY and LAD both choose to get under the CBT threshold for 2018? They both exceeded the threshold the previous two years, and their goal was to get under to not make it three.
MLB wanted a salary cap, and the MLBPA said absolutely not. So they agreed on a CBT threshold with penalties if exceeded with three years being the most onerous. IMO, the threshold is a de facto salary cap. It cannot be proven, and we will never know. If it is not a salary cap, then let’s increase it to $300MM to see what happens. If teams are truly only concerned about bottom line, then we should see salaries stay in the range they are now. But MLB will never agree to that because of the advantage the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Phillies, Mets, Giants, Nationals will have over the less revenue teams. So they have to create an arbitrary threshold that acts as a salary cap.
Whether player salaries are too high is another issue. And I do agree that each team needs to monitor their own budget. I am torn on this as I am a free market advocate, but MLB is an oligopoly and cannot exist in a true free market world. They need to have some restrictions so that the number of teams is commensurate with an competitive and profitable operating industry. But when teams say that their goal is to get under the CBT threshold rather than win, then the threshold really does act as a barrier and in effect is a salary cap.
Then why doesn’t mlb institute a salary cap like the NFL? Didn’t the NFL players union push for this year’s ago? Oh and let me be the first to officially welcome Mookie and David to LA. Deal will finalize today!
Where are thos reports at??
Some elements of the deal have been tweaked enough to build momentum toward a resolution, according to a source, but a few hurdles remain.
As of last night, the Twins had added a second minor leaguer to the deal – a player outside their top ten prospects – in a last push toward a resolution. The talks progressed from there. The Twins are now expected to get a little more than Dodgers righthander Kenta Maeda in the deal. Just to manage expectations here, focus on “little.”
Oh nice good stuff I appreciate you thank you
My whole point here is that for just 1 year of Betts Dodgers cannot be expected to over pay here. What is really strange as far as I am concerned is Betts telling Jim Rice he wants to or wanted to remain in Boston..yet he turned down a 10 year $ 300 million offer and as I heard a second offer. IMHO if Betts really does not want to be a Dodger that has to be taken into consideration..I cannot see Dodgers or other teams given in to that 12 year $420 million deal Betts has countered with.
I’m with Cassidy, today is good. I was thinking Sunday or Monday, but today is definitely better.
I’m guessing every team has different motivations for how they operate in terms of the cap. In Boston’s case, maybe it’s the Philly virus, management and ownership become concerned with being stuck with an aging, unproductive roster loaded with big contracts and a mediocre farm system. The Dodgers referenced that a few times when they moved toward a lower payroll. Still, they had an excellent farm system, something that the Red Sox do not possess.
I wouldn’t call it collusion. If a team pursues a full rebuild, trades key players to acquire prospects and moves up in the draft, then they win … that becomes the hot new idea and owners hire GMs to attempt to duplicate the success. It’s kinda trendy, nothing more. Obviously won’t work for every team. It’s like the draft and trends toward acquiring college players over high school players. Then others notice and do the same thing. Then somebody goes the opposite direction, more good prep players available. Over the years the Dodgers have done a bit of both.
Then there is analytics. Red Sox ownership has long been fond of the notion of paying less for more production. Of course, who wouldn’t want that? Look at all the bad contracts teams are saddled with these days. How many $300 to $400 million contracts can a team carry?
It will be interesting to see if the players pursue getting rid of the cap and penalties. I certainly would. I’m sure they will also pursue forcing teams to carry a minimum payroll.
Excellent column, AC.
One man’s collusion is another man’s smart business practices.
Do not disagree. Then can we get rid of the CBT threshold and let every team determine their best business practices without restraint?
Aren’t there other penalties besides money for teams that exceed the CBT?
If Boston believes some team will offer Betts 12 years at $35M+ AAV and know they won’t match such an offer then why not get as much for Betts now instead of nothing next year?
Maybe Price and Betts are unhappy living in Boston and as Casey Stengal said we have too many Yankees that aren’t Yankees.
Betts says he is very happy in Boston and did not want to leave. Price on the other hand hates Boston.
But not so happy to accept a big offer from them. Until he is traded he should continue to say he wants to stay.
How sad is it for Yasiel Puig? The two teams that were supposedly remotely interested were Tampa and SFG. Tampa just traded for Manuel Margot, and the Giants just signed Hunter Pence and Billy Hamilton and are no longer considering Puig. Will Puig be willing to sign a Minor League contract and a ST invite? Or will some team offer him a guaranteed contract. Will Mattingly bury his feelings for Puig and let him go home? Will Detroit step up? Indians? They have all said that Puig is not on their radar and they have made other arrangements. Is his attitude that caustic?
The one that surprises me is Brock Holt. Why he has not been signed is very curious. Hopefully if this deal with Betts/Price goes thru then Boston will re-sign him. If he were not LHH, I would have been a big advocate for Holt to be the new David Freese.
The best thing Puig could do for himself is to go over to Japan or Korea for a year or two. He’d be a huge hit over there, hopefully reestablish himself, and then come back and sign a decent contract.
I’m a big Holt fan and I thought he would be a good replacement for Kike or CT3 if we traded either of them. They kind of duplicate each other, both being right handed hitters, so Holt would be a lefty option for the same role. Now that we may be getting Rengifo, he’ll probably fill a similar role so I can’t see any way we sign Holt.
Puig has done this to himself!! The Dodgers got his best days. They held on too long because nobody wanted his drama. The fact the giants were considering him shows you desperation has no bounds.
Some good thoughts to chew on this morning AC! Thank you.
I’m probably more of a conspiracy theorist than you are. I think the CBT might be more of a smoke screen used by the owners to divert attention from how much they actually make through revenue sharing. Under the current CBA, the Yankees in particular, as well as the Dodgers, Cubs and Redsox do quite well under this scheme. There are others who have delved into this quite deeply, and I don’t have the time this morning to do so, but I believe the real problems start there, and are built upon the federal anti-trust exemption and a (now illegal) tax preferred/free financing structure of Stadium debt. Baseball owners do not play on the same field as other business owners throughout the land. The advantages afforded them by the anti-trust exemption are competitively much different than say, for example, Mark has to deal with in running US Water Systems profitably. The exemption and revenue sharing make it easier for the owners to “hide” revenue in their related club owned enterprises. All the while complaining that it is necessary for them to stay under the CBT, to avoid the “penalties.” The alleged “penalties” are never as severe in reality as they are in principle. Just look at a different example – – the Astros are “penalized” for cheating, yet they are able to sign the highest rated player on the international market. That will easily make up for the draft choices lost.
On another note, the only thing that legally allows MLB to treat minor leaguers as a form of indentured servants is MLB’s presumed exemption from the nation’s antitrust laws. If the exemption were definitively lifted, then a minor league ballplayer could sue MLB for violation of labor laws.
So, in my mind, there may be collusion, but it goes deeper than just the owners and MLB working together. They also have to have a few congressmen or congresswomen in their pocket as well.
Finally, I totally agree that the players union needs a much stronger negotiator than Tony Clark.
The MLBPA hired Bruce Meyer to lead it labor negotiations / CBA administration in August 2018. Meyer joins the MLBPA after working in a senior leadership position at the NHLPA. Before that, he spent three decades at the international law firm Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP, where he counseled the players’ unions in the NFL, NBA and NHL.
It appears that Clark knew his limitations and took action to build a much stronger negotiating team that has already had an impact on the next collective bargaining cycle.
One factor affecting salaries that no one has mentioned yet is the “new age “ approach to management.
Teams have gotten smarter about giving big money long term contracts to players past 30.
A player’s best years are low cost years due to the 5 – 6 years of team control. A players hitting free agency at 30 might not have more than 3 really good seasons left.
Teams have finally all figured this out. It’s not collusion, it’s information.
The real problem is this business of teams tanking. No team should be losing on purpose and spending as little as possible. Teams should be fined for this.
Dodgerrick, agree with your last sentence in your post here for sure.
Drugs are bad. Consider this post by someone who was evidently in a deeply psychotic state:
“I am for a reset. Dump Kershaw, Pollock, Kelly, and Jansen for some draft picks or prospects to backfill the Dodger farm. Rebuild around Belli, Buehler, Muncy, Smith, Lux. Cut the leash on May, Gonsolin, and Urias. Bring up some more top Dodger prospects to fill the voids.
Trade for a legitimate closer, and a young legitimate starter.
Eight years of playing the rental game is too long, IMO, so what is another two years of “reseting”?”
WOW!
This team won 106 games last year and it’s time for a rebuild?
I don’t consider the changes / proposed changes a rebuild — I would say realigning the roster for a better opportunity at world championships.
Exactly, SoCal because I have heard on MLBN and elsewhere that the “real” season begins in October for Dodgers.
I think someone said he was insane!
I just read that comment on another page too.
Heymen reporting Madea and smaller piece is almost set with Graterol heading to the Dodgers. That will make our BP even better. A lot of optimism the Metts deal gets done as well.
If the Dodgers do add Graterol gotta wonder what happens to Baez. Will he be traded as well?
Send him to Boston with Verdugo. Sox the hold up deal claiming they thought Baez was a starter
I read that report, but it is a head scratcher to me. Twins agreed to send Graterol to Boston in exchange for getting Maeda. Why would Dodgers have to send a “smaller piece” in addition to Maeda for Graterol? Perhaps another Twins piece would also be included? Regarding Baez, who can be a free agent after 2020 season, I think he could be traded after the arbitration decision is handed down.
I don’t get that either. Why add a piece when that part was agreed upon by both sides? The Twins must be adding something also.
If not after that arbitration hearing for Baez, then perhaps at the July deadline but wss.
Hello norcaldodgerfan! And as Boras (the agent for Graterol) has indicated he is not simply just damaged goods at this point.
I like the idea of Graterol in the Dodger’s bullpen. Who would the Dodgers send to Boston instead? Gray?
Ditto on Graterol. Who goes to Boston? I think it may be Gonsolin.
Agreed. Gray isn’t going anywhere. More likely to be Gonsolin.
Gonsolin 4 years older than Graterol, 3. years older than Gray, makes more sense for Red Sox and Dodgers.
The only thing that worries me about losing Gonsolin is the fact that he is a depth piece for this year. Maybe Boston can be tricked into taking Yadier Alvarez.
In order to pull that Alvarez trick off, you’re going to need to involve David Copperfield, Penn & Teller and Houdini.
At this point then as I am reading these posts, if Gonsolin in the deal gets it done then I am OK with it because we do have Gray and others still intact. No way of course was May or Lux ever going to be in this deal though.
Thank you singing the blue on keeping Gray.
I know that Graterol throws hard, but so have a lot of other pitchers who never amounted to much. He may turn out to be great, or not., or something in-between. I’ve already seen Gonsolin, and I know that I like him.
And like I posted yesterday, sweetening the pot for Boston is distasteful to me.
But at this point I’ll leave the decision to AF, because he knows a lot more than I do, and because I trust his judgment.
Olney:
Olney’s perspective:
“ There’s so much at stake for the Dodgers and Boston Red Sox in the potential Mookie Betts swap that you would assume that some way, somehow, the two sides will find a way to push the negotiations across the finish line. …
But the longer this takes to finish, anxiety within the Boston leadership seems to be building. At the time that elements of the deal were first reported, a rival executive noted that Derek Falvey, who leads the Twins’ baseball operations, has a deep understanding of pitching, and in this exec’s eyes, if Falvey is willing to give up Brusdar Graterol, the hardest thrower in the minors, then there must be some doubt about him. The Red Sox might have some concern about that, or Graterol’s medical history. Or perhaps it’s the natural revulsion some of their fans feel about trading Betts, one of the best players in the game. Or the word going around that Alex Verdugo, the big piece that the Red Sox would get, hasn’t been a perfect teammate.
But multiple evaluators with other clubs believe that Boston’s end of the proposed deal is pretty good — adding in the savings on Price’s contract, close to $50 million of the $96 million remaining. Price is 34 and pitching with some kind of mitigating condition in his elbow.
“What you have to ask yourself is, what would Price get if he was a free agent today?” said one official. Some estimates on that ranged from one year at $12 million, to $18 million over two years.
If the Betts deal with the Dodgers falls apart, then the Red Sox will be faced with exactly the same quandaries they’ve had all winter. If you start the season with Betts on the roster and the team is on the fringe of the wild-card contention in July, do you run the risk of angering the fan base even more by dealing him in the middle of a playoff race? Do you run the risk of retaining him and then seeing him walk away for almost nothing when he becomes a free agent next fall? And what do you do with the expensive group of starting pitchers — Price, Nathan Eovaldi, Chris Sale — if they struggle in the first half or break down? There are just not going to be a lot of opportunities for the Red Sox to trim their payroll in a meaningful way.”
Sometimes I have the memory of a fish, so maybe I remember it wrong. Wasn’t the talk that once Hill lectured Verdugo about his behavior, he turned into a good teammate and his enthusiasm rubbed of on other players?
If true, Hill has missed his calling.
You’re correct Jon. There was also an alleged sexual assault by a minor leaguer. Verdugo was cleared by all parties, the Dodgers minor leaguer who was involved was released but some are bringing that up too.
Deals coming together.
Dodgers are in agreement with Twins, pending medical review – Maeda and cash would go to MIN for Graterol and another prospect. Other elements perhaps.
Meanwhile, per Passan:
LAD and RedSox in agreement on Betts and Price for Verdugo & Jeter Downs + more.
I’m glad it’s Jeter instead of a pitcher. Pitching depth is crucial. It still stings to lose those two players.
Sounds like other pieces are going to Boston, perhaps a lower level pitcher since Downs is included.
Jeter Downs heading to Boston
1) Did we now send less cash to Boston?
2) we basically flipped the Twins relieve for Jeter Downs
oh, and 3) F boston
What I just read does not include Price.
MLBTR reports Price included in deal
I’m seeing both being reported. Price and no Price.
It would defeat the purpose if Price isn’t included. I can’t imagine he isn’t part of the trade.
That would be fantastic
Sorry yall I think this is a fabulous trade we got betts price and grateral, any thoughts
No Price. Jeter goes to Boston.
Can’t see Strip being in the Angels trade.
What a mess. I don’t like this nearly as much as the original. Boston just got rewarded for being raging asshats.
Passan is reporting Price is included
But looking at it from a higher level, we traded Downs for Gatteral. And Rengifo replaces Downs as a middle infield prospect
It does look like Price is in the deal. And Connor Wong. Hate to see him go. I think Wong has a lot of potential.
Not sure how I feel about this.
Not the same deal.
https://twitter.com/jeffpassan/status/1226641372712665088?s=21
I think the first deal was more favorable for the Dodgers. Isn’t there 1 more piece coming back from Minnesota?
Allegedly, it’s Bettes and Price and half of Price’s salary for Verdugo, Downs, and Wong.
Still don’t know for sure about the Twins or Angels deals…
It’s not as sweet as the first deal, but other than Verdugo, whom I really like, the other two players are potentially utilitymen.
IDK what to make of this breaking news, as I did not think Dodgers would have to part with someone like Downs to get this deal done. It makes it a bit of an overpay for a 1 year rental but maybe I am missing something. In the case of Wong being also included, well Dodgers have a plethora of good catching prospects so there is that. But if Dodgers are thus getting Graterol from Twins in this case, i am OK since Boras Graterol’s agent seems to think there is nothing too medically wrong with him
I’d rather have Graterol than Downs. He was blocked! We have much more need for a top reliever! I think it’s even a better deal for us
Agreed!!!!
I’m ok with Downs. I have stated before I am not a huge fan of Downs. More a personality thing. And he doesn’t fit into the near term future. I would rather have the young fireballer.
Wong also doesn’t really have a place, he is blocked. But he’s better than his rankings. I don’t see him as a star catcher. But he plays a decent 2b, he’s athletic and has a fair amount of power. I think he could be a starting catcher/backup for a long time in the show. I think the Dodgers value him more than the scouts let on. He’s also a good kid.
What I hate most is letting Boston extract more. They are being rewarded for not acting in good faith.
Not a great deal for the Dodgers. It looks like we overpaid, but I trust AF that this is better than the alternative.
Now we’ll see what the Angel deal is all about
Twins get Maeda and $10mil. We get Gatterol, a lower level prospect, and the rights to the 67th pick in the June draft.
The great thing about comp picks is that it gives the team a larger pool to possibly overpay slot value.
Unless that lower level prospect is really good, this seems like a very odd trade
What is odd about it?
Dodgers deal from Surplus to get cost-controlled, high-upside BP arm and the 2nd best player in baseball.
Not one player nor prospect traded was the top prospect at their position.
Sox had no C prospects and now have one. Downs is probably in their top 5 prospects now.
Maeda gets to start.
I was specifically referring to the Twins trade.
I think the issue is that Maeda’s value is as a spot starter and reliever. From everything I’ve read, he wanted to start. If he stayed, he would not be happy. The return for him is good. At least in my opinion it is.
So, it looks like the Dodgers are flexing their financial Muscles again by sending $10 Million and Maeda to the Twins for Graterol.
But the Dodgers are cheap.
I love this trade IF Graterol’s arm is, indeed, healthy (and we extend Mookie).
If Boston somehow re-signs Betts after this season, I will be quite upset. Otherwise, I’m fine with the deal, except for the Angels part, where we give up Pederson and Stripling for a utility infielder. It is irritating that we had to end up with Graterol, whom we didn’t want in the first place, but it’s better than the deal falling apart. And as I suggested yesterday, we should now just never deal with Boston again. Because we have traded Maeda and probably Stripling, we have lost three of our rotation starters from the beginning of last season, plus someone who could perhaps have filled in as #5. We did get Price, let us hope that he is able to win 12-15 games. And then we have to sign Betts long-term to make all of this really worthwhile.
We don’t know what the Angels trade will ultimately look like. It all depends on what prospects we get back from the Angels.
I can’t see AF letting the Angels give up pure lottery picks. I am reserving judgment.
Long shot. But if we somehow get Marsh… it’s a win.
The twins had agreed Graterol for maeda. But we say no let’s give you 10 million for a number 67 pick? Is that right? What am I missing here?
Exactly
Does anyone really know what the initial trades looked like? We were all at the mercy of talking heads and ill-informed posters.
The trade was never formally announced so we have no idea if dollars were included in the original deal or not.
I think Freidman wasn’t too happy having to rework this deal, but to me he has proven once again that he is ALL IN this year, and he’s going for it. He was dealing from surplus players, which is one of the reasons he made that trade last year with the Reds, to get trading chips. Just used one. As some of you mentioned, if this guy from the Twins works out, that would be a plus plus. You can never have enough pitching.
AC always says that you can’t keep all your depth and Wong and Downs were depth. The Red Sox may have gotten three pretty good players, but if Price is Right, he could flourish in the NL with a light workload. Price is the crapshoot.
Graterol was the #32 ranked MLB prospect btyBaseball Prospectus. Dustin May (#8) is the only Dodger pitcher ranked higher. He could make the Opening Day roster… or not, but his stuff is filthy.
Almost looks like Graterol is throwing a screwball.
I am both happy and pi**** about this deal. I am obviously ecstatic for getting Betts and Price. But there is nothing wrong with Graterol’s medicals and the commissioner should have told Boston they needed to live with the trade. The Dodgers had to throw in $10MM and another prospect (lower level) to keep Graterol. In effect they traded Downs, Wong, lottery pick and $10MM for Graterol and the 67th pick in June’s draft. Probably not out of line, but not as good as the original deal. If this was the original deal, I would have been okay. No pitching prospect, and dealing from two prospect strengths.
Boston cheated to a WS in 2018 and now reneged on a trade and got away with it.
For Boston’s punishment for cheating and reneging, the commissioner should tell them they cannot sign Mookie as a FA. $5MM is chump change to these owners, and losing draft picks as low as they are drafting means very little. If they are told they cannot sign FA, or limiting their FA budget, that would hurt.
I have to think that Boston’s reputation as a potential trading partner is damaged. Particularly when the Dodgers making the trade for Graterol supports the position that he is not damaged goods. Maybe Boras will do us a favor for that? Of course not. But if I were a GM, I would never deal with Boston again.
Yes, we’re all pissed that Boston got away with re-working the deal, but don’t for a minute think that teams will now refuse to deal with them.
If they have something another team wants, the trade will be made.
Even with Stripling and Maeda gone, here’s the Rotation Candidates:
Kershaw
Buehler
Price
Urias
May
Gonsolin
Wood
Nelson
Gray
That is still stellar. And Gray at the bottom, won’t last long.
I still like the deal. For all we know Downs or Wong could have been in the original deal and one of them had to be added to finish it off. Dodgers get who some are saying is the second best player in the MLB, a #3 SP for $16 million a year.
Downs and Wong have a lot of potential, but they are prospects. Verdugo hurts a little, but this trade is still a steal but not the felony type that was described originally. All-in-all I love it and can’t wait to see Price and Betts in Dodger Blue next weekend.
1st step down with the BoSox trade. All medicals have been cleared. Now just waiting for commissioners office to approve.
2nd step, Joc and Strip to Anaheim for Rengifo, M Mouse, and D Duck
That’s Goofy!
The money going to Minnesota may have been there before. We don’t know. The talking heads were just leaking stuff and trying to be first. They probably didn’t have the entire deal. Basically the Dodgers kicked in some cash and bought a high draft pick from the Twins. I hope Graterol closes a World Series for us some day as big F U to Boston. I’m glad Gonsolin didn’t go. I think he could be an excellent starter with a nice bat, but also a future closer with that splitter he throws. Kenley has two years left so the Dodgers need to groom a new closer.
Agree about Gonsolin. There was nothing not to like last year! I always thought he could replace Strip
I like this deal better than first. Rather have Graterol over Downs and Wong has no future in LA and think he’s a career backup. Downs is blocked with us and Graterol could give us something this year. Much rather give up Downs over Gonsolin and Gray. Total win for AF and Dodgers!
I now see this team as better than last years 106 win team. Question: ON PAPER, is this the best Dodger team of all time?
if someone steps up as a LEGIT #2, or 1B with Buehler, then yes. Otherwise, we need to go get that dude in July.
Is this the best Dodger offense ever? Our offense is better than the best starting lineup you can throw together from SF, Col, AZ, and SD combined!
As we celebrate today’s transactions plus the potential value of having signed Treinen, let us bow our heads in gratitude that we are not Giants fans. Their team, after doing nothing all off-season made up for it in the last 10 days by signing Pablo Sandoval, Billy Hamilton and Hunter Pence.
Luke Raley back to the Dodgers. Per Passan.
Can’t be I thought they said prospect!! Lol wasted piece
I’ll never like giving up 5 years of Verdugo for 1 year of Betts. Yes I said 1 year of Betts.
I’ve never been high on Downs and Wong, so I don’t care here other than they could have been used in a better trade FOR SOMETHING WE NEED like a #2 starting pitcher to slot in behind Buehler.
Details of the Maeda trade has not fully been reported, so I’ll wait for the details. So far in my mind from depth a swap of Price over Maeda at best is a wash. and again Maeda could have been used in a trade for SOMETHING WE NEED like a #2 starting pitcher.
If the Angels trade that was discussed earlier this week happens, I will be pissed. DO NOT TRADE JOC.
Joc is as good as gone,
Maybe not………………
What do you give up for a #2? It would take more than Verdugo, Downs, and Wong. Teams would want May or Lux. I’m not even sure what decent pitchers are available for trade at this time.
All we NEEDED before this mess was a bona fide #2 starting pitcher and a bona fide closer.
I don’t think anyone will be available until closer to the trade deadline. The Dodgers have plenty of trade capital to make a deal. Most likely the cost won’t be as severe.
The Dodgers likely have both already!
Tell me the #2 starter we could get for Downs and Wong! You could add Verdugo and still not get one.
They are trying to catch lightning in a bottle with Price.
Rosenthal reporting no deal between Angels and Dodgers, sources have told the Athletic
Joc was not going to sign long-term with the Dodgers and no way they offer platoon players the QO, so he has to go and they also get under the Lux Tax. It’s trade him now, or get ZERO. It would be dumb to keep him now. If he doesn’t go to the Angels, he’s going somewhere.
Joc said he didn’t hit lefties because he did not have the opportunity. The Dodgers say he can’t hit lefties. We will find out who is right.
I like Luke Raley. Another Matt Beaty-esque player.
If Raley is coming back to the Dodgers this is a good deal. Luke had a tremendous AAA season and was on the short list to make the Twins roster this year. I was not happy that Luke (with Smeltzer) was traded to get Dozier. Raley was climbing and never seemed overmatched. The only downside is that he is another LH bat. LAD has a lot of em. That will be a good pickup.
Look for Joc to be flipped for a couple of pitching prospects.
I hope they keep Chicken Strip but I cannot see how Joc comes back to the Dodgers after being traded and being beaten in arbitration. I agree, I’m looking to see him being traded in the next day or two
MLB.com ranks Kenley as the #7 Closer in baseball. Driveline could have him go even higher.
Strange that the Angel trade collapse wasn’t announced until after the other trades were finalized. I wonder if Arte was getting pissy.
1. Betts RF (R)
2. Bellinger CF (L)
3. Turner 3B (R)
4. Muncy 1B (L)
5. Pollock LF (R)
6. Seager SS (L)
7. Smith C (R)
8. Lux 2B (L)
Bench:
Barnes, Taylor, Beaty, Kike, Rios, White, Raley (only room for 5)
That lineup is a nightmare and the bench is stacked!
David Price had a 7-2 record with a 3.16 ERA through his first 17 starts, before he had to have a cyst removed on his wrist in 2019. He was 16-7 with a 3.58 ERA in 2018 and was outstanding in the World Series of 2018. He could be rejuvinated out of Boston… we shall see.
A real key to how good this Dodger team will become are how good Jansen and Treinen are. Yes we could use a legit co ace with Buehler for October but there aren’t a lot of deadline ace prospects out there. If you have an opportunity to pick up a top 5 player in baseball you jump at it and AF did.
Don’t forget Kelly, Wood, Nelson and Graterol.
Very happy we got Mookie Betts!! The steal AC’s theme, that was a very bold move! I think the price we paid was fair. If the Redsux fans think they didn’t get a enough, they can “Cry me a River” (little teaser for tomorrow’s post).
I like the trade with the Twins. I’m happy to have Raley back and I think that the 67th pick will produce a decent prospect(players drafted in that range in the past couple of years include, Pete Alonso, Bo Bichette, Mitchell White and Michael Grove. I am a huge Matt Beatty fan, but at the time Raley was traded, I actually thought he was a better prospect. I may have been in the minority, but that was my opinion.
Be interesting to hear what happened on the Angel deal and what happens next. I was getting more and more excited to see what we had in Rengifo. In any event, I think Ross Stripling’s Big Swing Podcast is going to be really interesting this week.
I was (am) a fan of both Beaty and Raley. But I have to admit, I was a little more partial to Raley. I hated the Smeltzer/Raley trade for Dozier. Smeltzer’s chance of breaking into the rotation took a hit with Maeda, but he will still get a good shot. I will be hoping he has a great spring. I am very much looking forward to Raley coming back into the Dodgers’ fold.
After the league screwed up Joc’s hearing it’s probably best that he’s not returning, and who knows, maybe Rengifo will prove to be a plus. And maybe including Verdugo will preclude any problems that may have arisen over his having allegedly witnessed a sexual assault in 2015.
I don’t like the Red Sox being rewarded for their shameful behavior, but the Dodgers are clearly a better team today than they were yesterday. And who knows, maybe Graterol will ultimately make the Red Sox look stupid.
Now the 40 sits at 42.
You have to figure that Joc and Strip are still going to be moved for prospects, and undoubtedly better than what the Angels can possible offer. After Adell and Marsh, that system is pretty barren. I was really trying to dig to see what the Angels could possible offer to make it fair, and it was hard.
Bob Nightengale says Anaheim is the one that backed out of the Joc deal.
On a side thought, look for the White Sox to come after Joc now.
Losing downs we needed Rengifo. Graterol might pay big dividends in the pen. I thought all along that Boston would want a catching prospect which is our depth position. Hopefully Betts and price can put us over the top. A year from now we may be wishing we had verdugo but AF I am glad you took the risk. Signing Taylor for 2 years gives us time to get our next kike which could have been Rengifo or downs. We have lost hill, ryu, and maeda from the rotation but I like our upside better with may and Gonsolin easing in and urias getting a shot. I really wish we had completed the Angel deal. Now what? Got to do something.
I would have been happy with a player like Rengifo, but do not sell Zach McKinstry or Devin Mann short. Also Omar Estevez has a chance to be a quality utility player.
To steal a line from our friends from Houston, “Im so F’ing happy we got Graterol !!!”
Jayne Cobb, any word from your Anaheim source?
I know the White Sox have a thing for Joc. How about Joc, Strip and a decent prospect for Bummer. Or make a run for Hand from Cleveland and add Baez to that mix.
I would do that. Would the Sox?
I doubt the Sox would bite.
The Dodgers most likely will trade Joc and maybe Strip but if not, Turner and Kershaw will wrap their arms around them. I hope they wind up trading Pollock instead. They both were a great fit in Angel Land.
Moreno is a dbag. Funny, Stripling went on twitter and said he was happy he wasn’t being traded To Anaheim. Joc might feel differently. Of course odds are Pollock gets hurt before they get to opening day.
Apparently I missed the story about the Joc trade to the Angels being called off. I guess that means both Strip and Andy Pages are back with the Dodgers. So although including both Downs and Wong in the Boston deal removes two potential pieces that could be used in potential future deals, getting back Joc, Strip and Pages opens other possibilities. I’m guessing that AF isn’t done yet.