There is no denying that Justin Turner was the Dodgers’ Main Clubhouse Leader during his tenure with the team. Of course, Mookie Betts and Clayton Kershaw were also there and are leaders, and what I am about to write is in no way meant to be demeaning to JT, who will always have a special place in Dodger lore. However, maybe Andrew Friedman and the Dodger Brass felt it was time to move on from JT – Yes, his bat has slowed, his legs are a step slower, and his glovework at 3B has slipped. He is on the downside of his career… as is JD Martinez. However, JD Martinez is nearly three years younger than JT, and while Father Time was partially responsible for JD’s decline last season, it was more injury-related.
JT was not so much of a vocal leader, but he was the guy who got the hitters together and organized a dinner at a nearby steakhouse. He was your buddy. He encouraged you. JT was liked by all. But… maybe Andrew Friedman and the Dodger Brass decided that since JT’s skills were eroding and the Dodgers seemed so “streaky” at times (you know: nobody hits or everybody hits – which was what killed them in the playoffs – nobody hit), that maybe it was time for a change of leadership. That new leader is JD Martinez (hereafter JDM). This is not just my “opinion.” Let me give you some facts from Chad Jennings of The Athletic (From August 23, 2022). It is entitled: “How J.D. Martinez changed the culture of hitting within the Red Sox clubhouse. Here it is (in part) and it starts with:
“In the spring of 2018, the Red Sox did what they’d always done after signing a big-name free agent: They held a press conference to talk about the move and introduce the new guy. This time, it was entirely unnecessary. Rarely had a free-agent signing more clearly spoken for itself.
John Henry had money to spend, Dave Dombrowski had a hole to fill and Alex Cora had a World Series to win. David Ortiz was gone, and J.D. Martinez was the best hitter on the market. It wasn’t complicated. Martinez was hired to hit.”
This is where things deviated from the norm:
But after the press conference and the ceremonial photos, Martinez was sent not into a batting cage to hone his swing but into a JetBlue Park office to receive a special assignment. Dombrowski and Cora explained that he was not simply a home run mercenary. The team wanted Martinez also to fundamentally change the way its best player thought about hitting.
“They pretty much assigned me Mookie Betts,” Martinez said. “They called me into the office and said, ‘This is your project.’ I said, ‘Damn, alright.’” Five years later, Martinez has done basically everything he was hired to do. He had a bad year in 2020, and he’s not hit for his usual power this season, but since 2018 he’s 15th in the majors in OPS, 13th in slugging and seventh in RBIs. He’s been an All-Star four times, and he’s won a World Series ring. His postseason numbers are outstanding.
But even in those dry spells when he hasn’t quite hit as much as expected, the greater impact of Martinez’s tenure has been his effect on the culture of hitting within the Red Sox clubhouse. From Betts to Rafael Devers to Trevor Story, Martinez has been a never-ending fount of knowledge and conversation-starter on mechanics, game planning and offensive approach. Some of his own methods and drills are unique, and he recognizes they’re not for everyone. He’s not looking for converts. There’s a broader culture to consider, and Martinez is at the center of it with open arms, open eyes, and an open mind.
JDM was not just a teammate, a hitter’s friend, or a buddy. He was the hitting guru – he was another hitting coach. He created a culture of hitting, making adjustments, and preparing for games. The Red Sox brought in a player known for his preparation, candid in his evaluations, and relentless in his obsession with swinging a bat and doing damage. The article went on:
“The hitting program kind of evolved around some of his philosophies and ideas,” current hitting coach Peter Fatse said. “It was a collaborative effort, obviously, but J.D.’s driven a lot of the conversation.”
The Red Sox pride themselves on the conversation. Their clubhouse is not strictly a top-down hierarchy. Players are encouraged to have their say. There are organizational philosophies, of course, but workouts and throwing programs are individualized. Cora might tell a player he’s getting a day off, but he’ll often let the player pick the day. The batting cage is an open forum, and hitters’ meetings are a free-flowing exchange of ideas and insights.
In Cora and his staff’s first year on the job, the Red Sox brought into that environment a player known for his preparation, candid in his evaluations, and relentless in his obsession with swinging a bat and doing damage. Tim Hyers was the hitting coach at the time and said that despite Martinez’s meticulous nature and highly specific methods, he arrived with a reputation for open-minded cooperation. The team was not worried he would become a cult unto himself. Quite the opposite.
Tim Hyers (the Red Sox Batting coach) said this:
J.D. came in and was open arms. Open to discuss hitting. Talking about how he prepared. And I thought it just brought the team together offensively and made it more of a focus and engagement — players talking hitting and coming together offensively in a number of different ways. … He was a good example of how somebody goes about each and every day preparing to be the best possible version of themselves they can be in the batters’ box.”
Eight months after signing JD Martinez, the Red Sox won the World Series (don’t we know it?). Mookie Betts said this: “[Having JDM] has been huge. He’s been kind of mentoring me every step of the way with just how to play the game, how to go about each day. To have him here in the lineup and everything else is huge.”
JDM is very humble and does not force his techniques upon other players, and perhaps that is why he is so well respected. Here’s how he views helping other players with their hitting: “Guys that have their own ways (should stick with) whatever works. I kind of do a good job — I feel like — of showing guys why they’re good when they’re good, and why they’re bad when they’re bad, and helping them find their way to good again.”
JDM says that he learned clubhouse leadership from the likes of Torri Hunter, Miguel Cabrera, Victor Martinez, and Paul Goldschmidt. JDM is great at spotting and explaining mechanical flaws, but his greater impact is with approach, game planning, and giving hitters a different way to look at pitchers where they might not have looked at them that way before. Here is a true story that illustrates how JDM can impact a team:
Martinez mentioned one hitters’ meeting in 2018 when he told the team that the only way to beat that day’s starter was to attack one particular weakness. Eduardo Núñez — forever a clubhouse jokester and good-natured punching bag — chimed in with an obvious question.
“Nuney looked at me and he was like … ‘But what if he does this (other thing)?’” Martinez said. “I was like, ‘You fucking strike out and go back to the dugout.’ And he laughed. I was like, ‘Man, if you do that, you’re going to have a long night. You’re playing right into his hands.’ You could try to be Superman, but the guys who try to be Superman are not Superman.”
It does little good for one superstar player to expect his teammates to share his superpowers. Superman can’t teach his X-ray vision, but he can tell his friends what he’s seen, and Martinez has seen more than most. He can “talk hitting in your lane,” Hyers said.
“I feel like he’s a hitting coach in himself,” Bogaerts said. “He’s really involved when it comes to hitting and drills and stuff like that. The good thing is, he’s a player so you can really relate to him, and he really knows what you’re talking about because he’s going through it at the moment.”
The Article in The Athletic ends with:
Yes, Martinez was hired to hit. And he’s done that. But he’s also changed the way the Red Sox talk about hitting. Turns out, he was hired to do that, too.
“It started with him,” Cora said. “But little by little, other guys jump in and that’s been the real value of his knowledge, just pushing other guys to be leaders in that meeting and prepare the team on a nightly basis to go and attack.”
Martinez has lifted the Red Sox with his bat. He’s changed them with his voice.”
I think Andrew Friedman signed JDM to change the culture of the Dodgers’ hitters. I think he will eliminate the “feast or famine mentality.” Will it work? Will the team embrace him? I am betting “YES.” JDM was brought here to change the culture. Kirk Gibson came to the Dodgers and did the same thing.
JD Martinez is also reunited with Robert Van Socyoc, who is his mentor… and friend, as well as Mookie Betts. As good as the Dodgers were while JT was here, they were not “clutch”… at times. As I said earlier, it seemed like “they all hit or no one hit.” JDM is here to DH and do “damage,” but as much as anything, he is here to change the culture, and with no disrespect to JT, he will try and change in ways JT never could. If this team can learn to grind out runs consistently, they could be even better than last year. Will they win 112 games? I doubt it – a lot of stars have to align to do that. Sometimes when they do, they quit aligning in the playoffs.
We have often said that the Dodgers need a leader. Mookie, Freddie, Max, and Will are all great guys, and Miguel Rojas has a great clubhouse reputation. If Jason Heyward makes the team, he is also another leader, but JDM is different in that if players want to get better, he is there to help. The rumor is that JDM told his agent to get a deal done with the Dodgers. He wants to be a Dodger, and he is with his buddies, RVS and Mookie. RVS and JDM make a nice team. When JDM came to the Red Sox in 2018, at the end of the season, he had hit .330 with a .402 OB%, 1.031 OPS, 43 HR, and 130 RBI, but he was not the best player on the team. The guy he mentored, Mookie Betts was the AL MVP. He hit .346, with a .436 OB% and 1.078 OPS, with 32 HR, 80 RBI, 47 Doubles, and 30 SB. Maybe JDM will also elevate Mookies’ game… again!
Welcome to the Dodgers, JDM!
Great report and spot on. After losing in the playoffs many people said the team needed someone like Gibson to make them less complacent. Maybe JDM will bring that!
One criticism I’ve heard about Dodger hitters is not making in game adjustments. Maybe he can help with that. It will be interesting to see who takes the reigns of leadership with the team this year. Some fire and brimstone wouldn’t hurt.
That’s a lot of words in support of JD.
I’ll keep my response short. I’d still rather have JT.
I wrote this a couple of weeks ago over at AC’s site in response to a post on Doc -not long after all the Doc mania here at LADT –
As you can see, I had my own opinions on why AF let JT walk when all around expected a reunion….
Hi Jeff, hope life is good.
Brave decision to “go there” on Doc lol.
Totally agree with your assessment of his attributes but, what i find interesting is where you touched on JT and his role of conduit between Doc and the players for these past few seasons.
I don’t think that it is a coincidence that JT has been moved on at this point in the Dodger’s transitional period, as they try to bed in a number of Rookies at the same time.
He has undoubtedly been a great Dodger, and certainly (until recently), has performed when the lights have been at their brightest. It’s this other role he fulfilled that I’m not so enamoured about.
I’ve thought for sometime that somebody from the players needed to step up, and make Doc a bit more accountable – to challenge him a bit more, if you will.
For all his attributes of managing a lot of Egos and a very deep pool of talent, and to tow the Guggenheim line, the Dodgers were far too flat on many occasions, most recently in our deflating exit to the Padres. It turns out that JT was our “Clubhouse Leader’”, something I was unaware of before now. Of course I knew he was respected, but “ Leader” – No!
Interesting that a couple of well regarded “Club House Presences” in JDM and Miguel Rojas have been bought in. I think AF has decided to change things up in the Clubhouse, especially in this time of potentially 3 Rookies at one time, and unwilling to change things at the top (Roberts), he has done the next best thing.
Everyone was expecting JT back on a lesser deal, and I’m sure he would have liked to remain in Dodger Blue, but it seems to me that AF decided to change it up, and leave Doc a little more exposed. Removing his comfort blanket of JT does this, and personally I’m very pleased.
Have thought for a while that Doc has surrounded himself with Nodding Dogs, and could do with someone with a harder edge to
make him a bit more accountable, someone to take him out of his comfort zone.
By taking JT out of the equation, AF has done this. Just my thoughts – but I’m glad some changes are coming.
Have to say that I’m looking forward to this season as much as anybi have in a long time.
Very optimistic about things, and it was definitely time to make some changes. No more excuses about Belinger. No more Bauer saga. Let the kids play.
This is perhaps the best post I’ve ever read from you. This was great! Yeah, I don’t think Roberts is a classic motivator type. He needs players to assume that role, and, I agree, JT was probably just too nice a guy. I think the Dodgers need an improved clubhouse culture – hungrier, not content to settle with being really talented, a grittier edge … and willing to make adjustments. I hope JDM and Rojas help.
This is perhaps the best post I’ve ever read from you. The bar is not high!
Cheers Patch
Cheers Mark – had to chuckle at that.
Makes me wonder where you got your ideas for today’s post!!
I hope he was kidding.
Do you know?
Good stuff, Mark. Thanks for sharing.
I’m glad JDM is with the Dodgers. Love JT, but I did think that the team needed a shakeup and maybe JT was becoming too much of an institution. JT got a great consolation prize–a better contract than JDM, even though JT is 3 years older. Tracking their respective performances will be a subplot to the coming season.
It does sound like JDM could be like an extra coach. Will he help revitalize Mookie’s game? Get him back into MVP form? I hope so. It might be more important for him targas and Outman too. (Another subplot: How will the Dodgers centerfielder, be it Outman or someone else or a platoon, compare the Cubs’ CF? The Dodgers should at least get more for their money.)
In other news, ESPN just came out with its own prospect rankings–the top 20 for each team, plus extras. Once again, Outman gets Dangerfielded–but at least the writer acknowledged that Outman could make him regret it. I certainly hope so.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/insider/story/_/id/35490491/2023-mlb-prospect-rankings-national-league-team-list
Good stuff Mark, I to am more excited for this year than years past. Even with Trea’s departure believe will have a better hitting and more consistent offense and gonna be fun seeing what some of the rookies can do. Feel like if can develop or acquire another elite type starter and someone to take over and dominate in closer role or develop there to look out. There’s other closers out there in very near future or already here in the Diaz, Hader class we just gotta find him. Also think there’s a very sour taste from top to bottom from that debacle in SD that’s bound to inspire. Bring it on
Really good piece. I’m in.
Welcome Brian.
re JT vs JDM…
Seems clear that JT was looking for a two-year commitment–and he managed to get that from Boston. I wish him well…and expect that JDM will out him. He is younger, after all, and JDM at his best has been better than JT at his.
It’s true that the Dodger braintrust may have no interest in Ohtani, but JDM’s one-year deal will make it easier to bring him in.
AF also lost Anderson to the Angels because he didn’t want to go beyond a one-year commitment. As it turned out, Syndergaard effectively took Anderson’s spot–for about $6 million less, That could be another good tradeoff.
These short contracts might mean nothing. Or it might mean that the Dodgers have bigger plans in mind.
Will the Dodgers make a big offer to extend Julio?
Or will they choose to lose him too?
I see it differently Duke. In their careers JT has out produced JD 34.7 to 26.5. He projects higher for this year too. I like JD just fine. But Turner was a clubhouse leader and an outstanding LA citizen. In my opinion he should have ended his career here in LA.
I like Turner a lot better than Martinez, but this is another example of how RIDICULOUS the W.A.R stat is. How many years has Martinez been a DH? This answer could explain why Turner has a lot higher W.A.R, because he played more defense than Martinez during their careers. Anyways as you can see by career stats their BA’s are similar except Martinez has a higher OPS.
Martinez .288/.352/.520/.872
Turner .289/.366/.466/.832
This is a case of manipulation of statistics to prove what you want, but I don’t fall for it.
JT has 14 Seasons in the Bigs
JDM has 12 Seasons in the Bigs .
JDM is 3 years younger.
JDM has mostly been a DH
JT has mostly played 3B.
Both are now DH’s so it is disingenuous to use WAR (which is comprised of OWAR & DWAR)
In 12 seasons, DJM has 31.2 OWAR – that is 2.6 WAR a season
In 14 seasons, JT has 35.5 – that is 2.5 WAR a season.
JT’s best OWAR Season was 5.2 WAR
JDM’s best OWAR was 6.8.
At three years younger – I will bet 100 Pushups JDM has a better year!
However, that is only part of his value, if he can help these guys hit better. I only wish Belli were here!
See all of that W.A.R stuff doesn’t make sense to me because the best career stats to look at to determine who has out produced who is BA and OPS. That is Martinez slightly and that is coming from me, someone who likes Turner better.
Batting Average?
Seriously?
If serious, why? I mean what’s conveyed by batting average that is not conveyed and augmented by other stats?
“to me … the best career stats … is BA and OPS.”
To you.
Do you ever consider that maybe you’re assumptions are not correct, or you just haven’t looked deeply at the stats to try to understand them to at least make a good assessment … and therefore say something insightful?
You asked me what it is about your posting that frustrates me. This would be an example.
What point are you trying to make?
You like JT better than JDM … for reasons. Ok. I like chocolate milk better than regular nonfat milk. So?
dodgerpatch
I like Turner better because he was a Dodger for many years.
Badger said “out produced” that means hitting/offense and W.A.R is part defense and that was the point I was making.
“Do you ever consider that maybe you’re assumptions are not correct, or you just haven’t looked deeply at the stats to try to understand them to at least make a good assessment … and therefore say something insightful?”
Which stats are you talking about? Talk about frustrating posts.
Bluto
What other stats are you talking about?
“is disingenuous to use WAR “
I think you’re wrong. WAR is what every organization in baseball uses to determine value. Being a DH is obviously limiting. In fact, on the WAR by position list it’s dead last.
Number of years? Do you think JD will catch JT now that they are both DH’s? Not going to happen. Justin Turner has more value than JD Martinez. He’s also paid more. I thought letting him go was part of a plan to get under the cap. But was it? It doesn’t look like it now but we won’t know until the end of the year.
Eric is into Fantasy Baseball and I am guessing that BA and OPS are front and center. I don’t know. I barely have time for regular baseball let alone fantasy baseball
It’s disingenuous when using WAR to try and compare a DH with a position player. It’s grapes vs. grapefruit!
Mark
What’s “front and center” to you? Give me your alternative.
It’s not grapefruit, you are picking cherries. Its not complicated Mark, it’s wins above replacement. And I’m not sure where you are getting your numbers but I was quoting fangraphs. The bottom line is Justin Turner has put up considerably more WAR than has JD Martinez. And he likely will continue that this year.
As I understand, JT is also percieved as insurance for Boston’s rookie first baseman. He might be in the field more that we assume.
JT’s second half in 2022 was damn good for a guy who supposedly can’t catch up with a fastball anymore.
JT was effectively cut loose for 3 reasons:
–AF did not want to give him a two-year commitment to a guy of his vintage.
–AF wanted to create an opening for Vargas.
–JDM was willing to take less $$ for a single year.
In other news, I was a bit disappointed by how Juan Toribio of MLB.com is reading the CF tea leaves.
He seems to think Taylor is the frontrunner, trailed by Trayce. Apparently Roberts is emphasizing Heyward and Zimmer as options, which may suggest that Outman will start in OKC.
I don’t necessarily buy Toribio’s analysis, but he is closer to the decision makers than any of us. … We’ll see.
Maybe JT will do for Boston what JDM will do for LA. Sometimes a new voice is better heard than is a familiar voice.
He’s projected to do more. But, it remains to be seen.
Are there any such thing as long odds of which team will provide the season’s ROY? If there is I’d say it could be very wise placing a buck or two Dodgers will provide that rookie for 2023. There are higher ranked rookies but that’s usually been the case with past Dodger ROYs of which Dodgers more than doubled the next best club. Oh well, there probably is no sports book offering odds on that bet.
The Padres and right-hander Yu Darvish are in agreement on a six-year extension that’ll run through the 2028 season, AJ Cassavell and Mark Feinsand of MLB.com report (Twitter link). Darvish, a Wasserman client, was already under contract for $18MM in 2023. That means the deal will tack on five years and $90MM worth of new money to his contract, which will carry through Darvish’s age-41 season.
That (IMHO) is a dope-fiend move!
JD Martinez is the last player to hit four homers in a game, and he did it at Dodger Stadium against LA. I love JT, always have, but I am a realist. JT struggled a lot at the beginning of last year, got hot for a while and totally disappeared in the playoff series with the Padres. He did the same thing in 21 against Atlanta. His bat is slower, he only played 60 something games at third and the rest as the DH. He hit .270 with 3 homers and 33 RBIs as the DH. Not great production. You will get much more than that from JD. JD also crushes lefties. He hit them for a .319 average last season. I care less about either’s WAR at this point. JT also has had injury issues for the last several years. He has played 150 or more games exactly twice in his career. Usually, he is around 120 or so. He turns 38 this season, so naturally his skills are deteriorating. As much as I love the guy, I know they can match his production with Muncy playing third. Power wise, JT is no match for JD. In less years he has more than 100 more homers than Turner.
Charlie Culberson signed a minor league deal with the Rays. Charlie etched in Dodger lore hitting a walkoff homer in Vin Scully’s last home broadcast, Scully would later sign the bat for him.
While we’re figuring out what it might take to keep Julio or go after Ohtani, it looks like there may be a third worthwhile pitching option next winter, Yoshi Yamamoto.
He won’t cost as much as either of the other two (although he’ll get some very nice $$$), and he sounds like he could be really something.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/02/mlb-rumors-yoshinobu-yamamoto-ace-japan-npb-posted-2023.html
Yeah losing JT bothers me more than anyone I can think of in a long time. He was a big reason why Dodgers were best team in all of baseball during his tenure. I’ll sure never forget that double play he made in Atlanta series, it was the defining moment for me. He was clutch many times. He’ll be back in some capacity would assume, hope dodgers treat him right as in family
JT was great as long as you could keep him on the field, which was getting more difficult as the years have passed. He has a great chance to rejoin the organization at some point. But this year, he is not playing 3rd base in Boston, he is slated to be their primary 1st baseman and DH. He has slowed down that much. Players age and retire. In this day and age, even stars leave their organizations and go elsewhere. I am pretty sure, had JT accepted a one year deal, he might have stayed in LA.
“JT was great as long as you could keep him on the field, which was getting more difficult “
Stats don’t support that Bear. The last two years he’s had over 1100 plate appearances and put up 6.6 fWAR. He’s projected to have over 500 plate appearances this year. He’s 38, birthday in November. I can see him playing past 40 if he wants to. He’s making $8.3M this year, cap hit of $10.8. I believe he’ll easily earn it. Next year he has an option for $13 and there is a buyout. He’s playing some infield and DHing. I see no reason why he won’t earn all the money. And he easily could have done it here too.
But it is more than that!
You can pretend that it is not, but I think as the season progresses we will see who is right.
I am not so much comparing what JT does vs. what JDM does – I am looking at what the team does. It’s not who can hit the best – it’s who can help the team the most.
He has been injured each of the last 5 seasons at some point. Either his hammy or something else. I totally know what he has done, but he cannot match JD’s power or his RBI ability. And the last two post seasons he fell flat on his face. It is time for him to be gone.
My eyes tell me that JD can’t hit a 95+ MPH fastball… and it is going to get worse. He is s “guess” hitter and pretty good at it, so he starts his swing earlier and sometimes runs into one, but I think he is in steep decline. It’s not a lot of money, but several baseball people I have talked to were surprised that JT got the deal he did. They were also surprised JDM only got $10 Million.
JT was old he can only play DH he should have retired a Dodger and then they could have made him like a a roving minor league coach. One how travels to all the minor league games and gives feedback on palyers that’s what Justin should have done. But like every player they always think they can do one more year. That’s what Justin should do is be a coach in training and then who knows some day manager of the LA Dodgers.
The problem is they don’t pay those guys $10+ Million. He could do that for 10 years and not make what the Red Sox are paying him this year!
Man the Dominican Republic got one hell of a WBC team. Be mighty tough for US to repeat. Be a fun watch
We will have a comparison soon.
Hint: I think the DR is #2 behind the USA… but the best team does not always win.
The hot one does!
Whichever team loses, it’s Dave Roberts’ fault
Hanley Ramirez is 39 years old. I wonder if he has grown up yet? It could be exiting him returning as a DH but all the drama to not revisit. Back when he was in blue I sure enjoyed seeing him step to the plate. Terrible with a glove but…………
I will be able to tell you at the end of the season whether JT or JDM was the better dh option for the Dodgers.
Even Ray Charles can see that!