The election for the Hall of Fame was held last week. Scott Rolen was the only player getting the requisite 75 or more percent of the vote. Todd Helton, former Rockies’ first baseman, fell short by 11 votes. There were some who questioned Rolen’s Hall worthiness. Today’s voters value players much differently than in the past. Had he played in the 1960s, Fred McGriff most likely would have gone in simply on his power numbers. He has the same number of homers as Hall of Famer Lou Gehrig. But he had to wait until last December when the Golden Age committee called his name.
It is very easy to find a list of the members of the hall. Wikipedia has a full list. Not all of those players were solid citizens. And there is supposedly a criterion for voting that takes into account one’s character. But there are known bigots and drunks and others in the hall who were in no way, choirboys. Conversely, there are some genuinely solid character guys also. The first class was five players, Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, and Honus Wagner.
Mathewson and Johnson were known as solid citizens. They neither caroused nor had problems off of the field. Wagner was the son of German immigrants. But by most accounts, he neither smoked nor drank. He once had a cigarette company remove all of his baseball cards of him because he did not smoke. One reason the T-106 Honus Wagner card is so rare and worth millions.
Cobb was probably one of the most hated players ever to play the game. He is also probably the best hitter who ever lived. Up until Pete Rose passed his total hits of 4191 hits, he held the record. He also holds the record for the highest career batting average at .366. No one is close to that. He was a fiery competitor. He would sharpen his spikes and slide with his feet in the air. If an opposing player got spiked in the process, Cobb did not really care. He was all about winning. Off the field, he had more than his share of scrapes. In today’s game, that kind of behavior leads to bad PR. Back in his time, there was not much said about it.
Ruth was larger than life, and he, too, had many bad habits that caused his manager and owner to fine and suspend him more than a few times. But he almost single-handedly saved the game after the Black Sox scandal in 1919. Surprisingly, none of the first five who went in were voted in unanimously. Cobb had the most votes with 222 out of 226 ballots. Ruth and Wagner tied at 215.
But as one goes down the list, the line blurs some between greatness on the field and being merely very good. There are also executives in the hall, some umps, and a commissioner or two. One such commissioner is the very first one, Kennesaw Mountain Landis. Landis is known for his handling of the Black Sox scandal. It was the reason he was hired. But he demanded unlimited power and a lifetime appointment. That part came true as he stayed commissioner until his death. He was elected to the Hall in 1944. So, why am I talking about him? Landis was a known racist. He is one of the main reasons that blacks did not break into the majors long before Jackie Robinson.
There have been a few elected over the last several years that had some people shaking their heads. Harold Baines was one of those guys. His career slash line is .289/.356/.465. His OPS is .820. OPS+ 121. He was a career 38.8 WAR player. He had 2866 hits, 384 homers, and drove in 1628 runs. The only thing he ever led the league in during his 22-year career was slugging – once. He was an All-Star 5 times. He played more than half of his games as the DH. He never got more than 6.1% of the writers’ vote in the six years he was on the ballot. He went in when elected by the Today’s game committee in 2019. Baines was a very good hitter. He was not that great in the outfield, which is why his teams used him as a DH. You compare him to Edgar Martinez or David Ortiz; he is not in their league.
Bill Mazeroski was a career .260 hitter. He has a lower WAR than Baines, and he had little power, but he won 8 gold gloves in his 17-year career, and he was an 8-time All-Star. Maz got in because of his glove. He was one of the better fielding second basemen of his time. He was also noted for hitting a walk-off homer in the 1960 World Series that beat the Yankees in game seven and won the series for the Pirates. But a Hall of Famer? His percentage grew a little each of the 15 years he was on the ballot, but in his final year, it was only 42.3%. Nine years later, the Veterans Committee voted him in.
Hall players who had known drinking problems included sluggers Jimmy Foxx and Hack Wilson. Both were used as models for the Jimmy Dugan character in A League of Their Own. Grover Cleveland Alexander also was seen to have a drinking problem. It was magnified by the fact that Ol Pete also had been gassed in World War I, and it brought about epilepsy. He had fainting spells, and his seizures were often mistaken for drunkenness.
You could go through the list of members of the hall, and there are a few who probably would not be elected today with the emphasis on sabermetrics. Wilson’s WAR is 38.7. He played 12 years; his first seven were excellent, but his last five were not that good. Also, he hit 1/5th of his career total of homers in a single year, 56, in 1930. He never came close to that number again.
As for players who used PEDs, so far, none are in the hall. Piazza was on a list that said he used, but he never tested positive. Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, Rodriguez, if any of those guys get in it, will be through the Golden Era committee. Their time on the writers’ ballot is done. Curt Schilling is deserving, but he basically shot himself in the foot with some of his comments. He still might make it through the committee.
I believe that somewhere down the line, Pete Rose will finally get in. But my feeling is that if he does, it will be after he has passed away. I do not think the powers that be want Pete to reap the monetary benefits associated with being a Hall of Famer. I also believe that none of the Black Sox players will ever get in, either. There was a lot of sympathy at one point after Field of Dreams for Shoeless Joe Jackson. But that has faded some. I think Gary Sheffield is going to have to wait for the election by the committee. Sheffield definitely has the numbers. But like Bonds and Kent, his relationship with the press has been a little tumultuous. Next year’s class features a lock, Adrian Beltre, and a couple of other strong candidates. Todd Helton, who missed by 11 votes this year, will most likely go in with Beltre next year. The outside shot goes to Billy Wagner, who will be in his last year of eligibility.
My final thought on the Hall is that it is not perfect. No person or thing is. There are some questionable personalities in the Hall. But there are those kinds of people everywhere. I just feel that sometimes those who are truly deserving, have to wait a long time. Sometimes they never know because they are no longer living. Gil Hodges deserved to be in with Pee Wee, Jackie, the Duke, and Campy. That it took until last year for a class person, and the best 1st baseman of his era, that long to get in was a travesty.
Always enjoy your writing Bear, thank you
Thanks Michael. I try to make them enjoyable.
Bear, good read. As I.ve always felt Buck Weaver was dealt a rotten hand and should not have been grouped with the ‘Black Sox’. But there were ‘Clean Sox’ players of which Eddy Collins is in the HOF. Sadly, I believe Comisky is also in the HOF.
Weaver is the one guy I felt got railroaded. I think his only crime was knowing about it and not reporting it. Part of Landis’s verdict was to know and not report was as bad as being involved. Yeah, Comisky is in the Hall. And his miserly attitude towards his players and his reneging on promises made to Cicotte and other members of the team was part of the reason for what they did. But Comisky was one of the founding owners of the American League. So he pretty much was a lock for enshrinement.
Lets hope that the history lesson for 2023 is that the Dodgers rolled the dice with their young players and won a WS! Thx Bear. Always enjoy your articles as well.
I jumped in my time machine for you:
1. Outman was the good. Flirted with a 40/40 season and turned down for Trout straight up
2. May was unhittable
3. Vargas never dipped below .300
4. Roberts found a crystal and now consults in during inning breaks
5. Thor finished Top 5 Cy
You been hanging out with Friedman?
Thanks Cassidy. I love doing this.
Great write up Bear. I enjoy your posts about the former Dodger players.
How did Phil Rizzuto get into the HOF? What a joke.
Good question. Rizzuto believe it or not has a higher WAR than Wilson. 42.2. He did win an MVP award and was 2nd in that vote once. 5 All-Star appearances. No gold gloves, he was past his prime when they came into existence. He was during his career considered one of the better defensive SS in the game. His fielding pct, the main form of rating defense in those days, is ,004 better than Pee Wee. But Reese was a 68.4 WAR player. He had more power than Rizzuto. Both were elected by the Veteran’s committee. Rizzuto’s highest pct while on the ballot was 38.4 his last year on the ballot. Reese achieved a 47.9. They were enshrined 10 years apart. Reese in 84, Rizzuto in 94. Rizzuto stayed in the public eye as a broadcaster. Reese became an executive for Hillerich and Bradsby the bat company in his hometown of Louisville. They both had nicknames. Rizzuto was Scooter, and Reese, besides being called Pee Wee was referred to by his teammates as “The Little Colonel.”
Thanks Bear. It pays to be popular when trying to get into the HOF. Just ask Jeff Kent.
It also pays to play in Boston.
Today is Jackie Robinson’s birthday. Born this date in 1919 in Cairo, Georgia.
Yesterday I saw a MGM Vegas odds list for NL Cy Young and Julio wasn’t in the top ten. Found that strange since he been in the running last couple years and it’s his free agent year. Plus I didn’t see any signs of regression. Hmm? Mookie came in a distant second behind Soto for MVP and Freddie ninth. Predictions and odds don’t really amount to much. Been starting to think there’s a bias throughout the country towards the dodgers
Projections mean jack. Soto was pretty pedestrian last year. He will probably be better this season, but he is still just a kid. Urias has always been underrated. He should have won the Cy Young two years ago. Mookie has been good as a Dodger, but injuries slowed him in 21, and last year he was still not the player he was in Boston when he won the MVP. I expect him to perform at a higher level this year.
Hall of Fame let’s see the players I saw that should be in the Hall. That were great players and good role models for kids. Larry Walker with the Colorado Rockies always a classy guy great hitter friendly to fans. Andy Van Slyke always a favorite of mine when he would come here for batting practice and talk to the fans of the home team at Dodgers Stadium. And one more player who was always a pain in the Dodgers and could hit well Rich Aurillia. Three guys that were great hitters and good embassadores of the gam. Oh I always liked to when the Expos came to town that team. Wow they had talent Tim Raines Andre Dawson Gary Carter Andres Galaraga talk about a team with Hall if Famers on it and fun to watch. When they visited Dodgers Stadium that was always fun players to see.
Galarraga is the only one from the Expos who is not in the hall. Van Slyke and Aurilia fall into the category of the merely good. Neither have hall worthy numbers.
I thought Aurillia had world series rings and like close in most homers for a shortstop position player and games played at that position. Van slyke on winning teams good bathing average good outfielder whats the criteria then for Hall of Fame world Series winner to with Cardinals. For guys that didn’t use the juice I thought we were picking for the Hall of Fame.
Aurilia played in exactly one world series, 2002, and they lost. He is nowhere near being close for the most homers by a shortstop or is he close in the most games played at the position. He played 1095 games as a shortstop, the all-time record is 2709, held by Omar Vizquel. 19 players played more than 2000 games at short including Reese and Russell. Also his WAR is only 18.2. He had a couple of good seasons, but his career is unremarkable. Van Slyke also appeared in only one world series which was also a loss. Bradley, to get into the Hall, you have to have a better than average career. Van Slyke and Aurilia are both good but just average players. Just because a player contributes to a winning team, doesn’t mean he has hall credentials. I can name dozens of really good players who are not in the hall. Van Slyke played on some really good Cardinal teams, and he was a solid hitter. But not even close to being a Hall of Fame candidate. By the way, he hit .190 in the post season in his career. He did not have 200 homers, neither did Aurilia. Van Slyke was pre-PED era. Aurilia was on the same team with Bonds.
There are a lot of players who one might think should be in the Hall. Guys like Garvey, Wills, Jim Edmonds, Jack Clark, Will Clark, Don Mattingly, but none are. They all fell short in the writers vote and up until now, they have not made it through the Veterans committee. It took Minnie Minoso almost 42 years to get in. Now you may never have heard of Minoso, but he played parts of 4 decades in the majors. He began playing MLB ball in 1946. He played his last MLB game in 1980. He was 56 years old. He never won an MVP. He was a 13-time all-star. He was also a very good hitter. Cuban born; he was pretty much an icon on his home island. Unfortunately, when the Golden Age committee voted him in in 2022, he had been dead for 7 years. Being very good like Galarraga, Van Slyke, or Aurilia, doesn’t quite make the cut. Do not get me wrong, there are a few who are in who make you shake your head.
Good post! You made me think of Andy Van Slyke and other players who are kind of on the bubble with respect to the Hall. I remembered Andy as being a solid hitter, but an even better outfielder an all around player. Not great, but consistently good. Good enough to make the Hall. No. In fact I was surprised that his defensive stats were not all that exceptional in the latter half of his career. I then thought of another guy who reminded me of Van Slyke. Jim Edmonds. Consistently a solid hitter every year and an absolutely fantastic outfielder. He has a career WAR over 60, which is right around Rolen’s career WAR numbers. I personally don’t think he’d qualify, but I was surprised at just how good his numbers were.
Larry Walker was a fantastic player, even in Montreal. I think his offense got a boost from playing in Colorado. That will hurt his chances, but he’s another guy with a career WAR well over 60 (68.7).
Yeah Ive been trying to think of players that didn’t use steroids. Think that’s why Rolen got in this year. Garvey should be. Hershisser should be. Mark Grace should be. Larry Walker and Will Clark to. All great hitters ball players and I don’t think they used steroids.
Larry Walker is in the Hall. Rolen got in because he is one of the top 10 3rd basemen of all time. Solid hitter, great gloveman. And voters now are more into sabermetrics and his are good. 70 WAR player. As for Grace and Clark, neither got more than the 5% of the vote needed to stay on the ballot. Both are career .300 hitters, but they are first basemen with little power. Granted Clark hit 284 homers. Grace less than 200 from a position where more power is expected. Neither of them ever won a major award. Both were All-Stars multiple times, Clark earned one gold glove, Grace 4. Neither were the best at their position in the era in which they played. Clark might get in via the Golden Age committee somewhere down the road. He does have a decent 56.5 WAR. Grace’s WAR is 46.4. A little too low for the stat geeks. As for Garvey, he was on the Golden Age ballot last year and missed election by 6 votes. But since there are only 12 voters, he wasn’t even close. Garvey also suffers from the lack of power from a power position. He has less homers than Clark. He does have an MVP award which he earned in 1974. He never led the league in any of the offensive categories except hits twice. His WAR is below 40. Hershiser had 2 outstanding seasons. 1985 when he was 19-3,, and 1988 when he was 23-8. He won one Cy Young Award and finished third for the award once. He won 204 games in an 18 year career. But again, except for those two seasons, he never led the league in the major pitching category’s. Not ERA, nor K’s. He led the league in wins once, and losses twice. Orel did pitch well in the postseason with an 8-3 mark. He was 3-3 in World Series play with a save. But he did most of his postseason work when he was with the Indians. Of his 22 post season games, only 8 were with the Dodgers. Orel falls into the category of a very solid pitcher. But no Hall of Famer. He dropped off of the ballot after his second year when his vote percentage dropped below 5. The committee is made up of former players. All of them in the Hall. Clark was on the ballot in 17 and 19 as was Hershiser. Let me give you a little perspective on some really good players who I would put in the Hall over any of the players you named. One, Dale Murphy, 2 time MVP and he hit 399 homers, not in the Hall, Frank Howard, 382 homers, 2 homer titles and a ROY award. Not in the Hall. Roger Maris, hit 61 homers to pass Ruth’s record, played on 7 World Series teams and has 3 rings, not in the Hall. There are a lot of very good players who just fall short. Check the stats and you will see why the writers did not elect them in the first place. Now, Jeff Kent and Gary Sheffield should be in. But Kent had a bad relationship with the writers. He has more HR’s as a second baseman than any player in history. He will most likely be elected by the committee. Sheffield has over 500 HR’s. He will go in via the committee if not elected.
OB,
Charles Leerhsen’s scholarly book on Ty Cobb titled “A Terrible Beauty,” debunks a lot of false stories that have destroyed Cobb’s character. It was Al Stumpf who destroyed Cobb with what has been proven to be falsehoods in order to make a quick buck. Cobb had his flaws, and was far from perfect, but his reputation as being racist, bigoted, disliked, greedy, and dirty player that he is portrayed to be today was simply not accurate. It has been several years since I read the Leerhsen book, but it certainly opened my eyes. If there was one thing that a Cobb was, it was troubled and in need of psychological help after his father was killed by his mother. He suffered in silence while on the big stage, but considering what he went through mentally, it’s tough to fault the man for some of his missteps.
Ken Burns destroyed him in the “Baseball” series, and it was all from the Al Stumpf narrative. He was a product of his time and from the South, but the references to him as a racist are way off base as Cobb was always a vocal supporter of integrating the game, even back to his playing days.
I stan for Burns.
If only for the Civil War and Hemingway projects.
True, Cobb was misunderstood, and probably should have been seeing a shrink. I never believed a lot of the stuff in Stumpf’s book and the movie, with Tommy Lee Jones, did the same character assassination. But some things he did were overboard including beating up a disabled man in the stands. No one really said he was dirty per se. What he was was a very intense individual. He played the game hard. And he took every advantage he could. He made himself into the best player of his era. He was also an astute businessman. He made a ton of money buying Coca Cola stock. One of the reasons he was the way he was is because when he was a rookie, he was mercilessly hazed and harassed by his teammates. They would break his homemade bats, nail his spikes to the floor. Mostly because they were jealous of the kids talent. He was quoted as saying, “those old-timers turned me into a snarling wildcat.”
There was an incident in 1908 according to Wikipedia, where Cobb assaulted a black laborer who complained when he stepped in fresh concrete. He was found guilty of battery, but the sentence was suspended. Wikipedia also details the assault on the man with no hands, Charles Lucker, on May 15, 1912.
Having re-watched the Burns documentary not that long ago (maybe a year or so ago), I don’t remember Burns depicting an overtly racist angle with Cobb or destroying him. To me, Burn’s historiographical narrative was more along the lines of Cobb just being an anti-social, tragic figure filled with regret after his playing days were over. I still remember a quote Burns attributed to Cobb near the end of Cobb’s life. “I think if I had my life to live over again … I would have had more friends.”
Actually, Burns did omit a large part of that quote. I just looked it up in its entirety.
“I think if I had my life to live over again, I’d do things a little different. I was aggressive, perhaps too aggressive. Maybe I went too far. I always had to be right in any argument I was in, I always had to be first in everything. I do indeed think I would have done some things different. And if I had I believe I would have had more friends.”
Sometimes authors, whether Burns or this other author just cited, will craft a narrative, and in taking pains to debunk a prevailing legend in a contrarian way, they end up distorting the truth just as much as the legend.
I think it’s reasonable that Cobb was a very aggressive personality and hypercompetitive …and he probably wasn’t well liked by a lot of people.
Another favorite quote from my favorite Western. “When the legend becomes fact. Print the legend.” In this case I think there might be more truth in the legend than in the fact checker.
Evan, thank you for referencing Leerhsen’s book on Cobb.
I think that any one who has an opinion about Ty Cobb that hasn’t read that book needs to.
It’s so typical of even what we are experiencing today. Rumors, lies and false accusations can ruin a man’s name and reputation. And in ignorance it is perpetuated without much concern whether true or not.
You nailed it BoBo. A lot of that comes from selfish ideological or political agendas with such cruelty there’s no care of damage done. It’s a scary thought where this world will be in fifty years. But on a different note I believe both Mookie and Freddie will have big years. It’s there team now with a little chip on shoulder and something to prove to go along with some breakout prospects. A good staff hopefully. We could just have a shot at it
Was there any truth that Cobb went into the stands to beat up on on an armless heckler? He did in fact file his spikes to instill fear before all games though at the time that was not considered cheating. I still have to say he wasn’t a man of great character. But times are different.
Yes, but the man had no hands, he had arms. An account of the entire incident is on Wikipedia, It happened in 1912.
Wikipedia is not a good source.
It is also on his Society for American Baseball Research page. I consider more than once source credible.
I don’t know how to link it but @ mlb.com there is an interesting article.
“Ty Cobb history built on inaccuracies.”
There are stories, and then again there are stories. Cobb is not the monster many said he was, but he had issues like we all do. Babe never called his shot either if you ask witnesses who were there including the pitcher Charlie Root.
Or was it he had hands but missing fingers ?
Maybe it doesn’t matter to some people. But when dealing with another man’s reputation accuracy is important. Wikipedia, hmm.
There were a lot of witnesses to the incident.
I pulled the Leerhsen book off the shelf and read the chapter on the incident.
There were witnesses to the incident. it was ugly. Cobb went nuts and punched and kicked the heckler into oblivion. The heckler, a guy named Claude Lucker, had ridden Cobb hard all year whenever the Tigers had come to New York. He said something that struck a nerve. Some said that he said Cobb was on drugs, others that he mentioned his mother killing his father. Whatever it was, Cobb snapped. It wasn’t the first time a player had attacked a heckler in the stands, (both Cy Young and Rube Waddell had done so that year too). Ban Johnson suspended Cobb for ten games and fined him $500.
His teammates, those guys that supposedly “despised” Cobb, according to Stump’s accounts, were so outraged by the fine and suspension that they staged the first players strike in the history of the game, demanding that the wrong be righted on behalf of their teammate.
And Lucker. He was disabled, but not as had been reported. He had lost fingers on both his hands in an industrial accident at the time while working at the New York Times printing process. Cobb didn’t know of his handicap. Nor did he care probably.
Yes, a whole bunch, and apparently some saw Cobb beating up a handicapped man with no arms, others saw the man had one arm. Still others saw he had arms but no hands and then others said he was missing fingers.
Fighting a man it’s no arms is different than fighting the man who was missing fingers.
But most people regardless of the facts know that Ty Cobb just rushed into the stands and beat up an armless handicapped spectator.
My point is if we don’t really know the facts we shouldn’t really give them.
Over and out.
Point taken, but the fact remains that Cobb never refuted that it happened. In any incident there are going to be different stories from different witnesses. The man was handicapped. That is a fact. Whether it was no hands, or no arms depends on who is telling the story. But it happened, that is all that matters. Another contributing factor was that this particular fan was on Cobb from the beginning of the game. Cobb asked the opposing manager to have the fan removed. It did not happen, a little later the fan said something to Cobb that touched a nerve and he went into the stands after the man.
Great stuff, Bear. As usual.
I would argue that Maz got in because of his bat–or more precisely, that one swing of his bat for the walk-off World Series championship. That was epic. Take away that one glorious moment, and then Maz was a good player, but he wouldn’t be in the Hall. (How many are in the HOF mostly because of their glove? Ozzie and Brooks come to mind–and both were pretty good hitters, too. Better than Maz.)
Maz, I’d say, is less deserving than his old keystone partner Dick Groat. Imagine if Groat had hit the walk-off: He’d have been a slam dunk. Hell, he was the NL MVP in 1960, and his career stats are far superior to Mazeroski’s.
Finally, I think Maz benefited from a pretty cool name and nickname. “Maz” has panache and pizazz. What if he was named Bill Jones? Or Dick Groat? Just ain’t the same.
And neither of these guys revolutionized the game the way Maury Wills did.
We wuz robbed!
Smith was a pretty bad hitter the first 7 years of his career. Then when he turned 30, something clicked, and his average went up. He averaged .231 as a Padre, and .272 as a Cardinal. Brooks was a .267 career hitter. He did hit 268 long balls and won an MVP award. He went in on the strength of his glove 16 consecutive gold glove awards.
DODGERS EXTEND TONY GONSOLIN
LOS ANGELES – The Los Angeles Dodgers agreed to terms with All-Star right-handed pitcher Tony Gonsolin on a two-year contract through the 2024 season for $6.65 million dollars.
Gonsolin, 28, made 24 starts for the Dodgers in 2022, going 16-1 with a 2.14 ERA (31 ER/130.1 IP) and 119 strikeouts. He had a remarkable campaign in 2022, earning his first trip to the Midsummer Classic, going a perfect 11-0 with a 2.02 ERA and allowing 55 hits in 93.2 innings during the first half of the season and finished the season with the highest winning percentage in franchise history (.941), while finishing amongst the Major League leaders (min. 130 IP) in wins (T-5th), WHIP (0.87, 2nd), ERA (2nd), batting average against (.172, 2nd) and winning percentage (1st).
The Northern California native has been with the Dodgers parts of four seasons since being drafted in the ninth round out of Saint Mary’s College in 2016. In 59 games (51 starts), he is 26-6 with a 2.51 ERA (76 ER/272.2 IP) and 267 strikeouts. He finished fourth in the National League Rookie of the Year voting and was the Baseball America Rookie of the Year in 2020 after going 2-2 with a 2.31 ERA (12 ER/46.2 IP) and helping the Dodgers win the 2020 World Series.
Old Bear O been looking at players like Rolen who got in the Hall of Fame. So your telling me a Dale Murphy shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame yet had better numbers the Rolen. Oh here’s another on Jeff Kent as a second baseman just how many homers did he had he hit alot and he played 2nd base his whole career never moved to another position. Paul O’Neil he is another player that should be in the Hall if Fame since Rolen got in. If your saying good hitter and position player I just mentioned a couple of guys that should be. I think Rolen was on the national league all-star team for the Reds look at that team and say is he the one who will make the Hall of Fame out if that roster. Barry Bonds Matt Williams Barry Larkin Larry Walker Craig Biggio Jeff Bagwell naw nobody would have picked Rolen they would have me thought those other guys. Which I do think Biggio and Bagwell did get in. Makes you think guys like Eric Karros Adrian Gonzalez an Todd Helton should diffentley be in they were on that all-star team to weren’t they. Hmm interesting.
I said Murphy belongs Bradley. O’Neill? Your nuts. O’Neill was another just very good player. Kent missed induction in this his last year on the ballot. I think he will eventually go in. Look at the stats, Karros was very good, no major awards, just 264 homers and his career WAR is 10.4. O’Neill was a very good player. But he is no Hall of Famer. Just because someone makes an All-Star team does not mean they are Hall worthy. Adrian Gonzalez is not even eligible to be on the ballot until next year. Helton missed by 11 votes of going in this year. O’Neil got less than 3 percent of the vote his only year on the ballot. I think the voters have a better handle of who belongs than we do. They watch these guys their entire careers. Adrian Beltre is on the ballot next year. He will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. So will Ichiro when he is eligible, You act like I have a vote. I do not, but I can tell the difference between someone who is very good, and someone who stands a little taller than the rest. O’Neill’s numbers are not even close to Rolens. Rolen’s WAR is 32 points higher than O’Neill’s. And believe it or not, to today’s voters, that means something. Of those other guys you named, only Bonds and Williams are not in the Hall. Bonds for the obvious reasons, and Williams is another example of a very good player who falls short. He got less then 2 percent of the vote his only year on the ballot.
It’s always seemed to me that being on a major league roster all by itself means you are a Hall of damn good player. Most big leaguers were THE best (or one of THE best) everywhere they ever played since they were children.
Being a player that truly belongs in the bonafide Hall means you’ve proven over time to be noticeably better than the best of the best. You stood nearly alone among the position players or pitchers in your era-of-play and not just for one or two seasons.
Exactly. There are a lot of very good players who fall short. Fernando has never come close to being elected. But he might go in someday because of his impact on the game. Cey isn’t in, neither is Dusty Baker or Kirk Gibson. David Cone, Daryl Strawberry, the list goes on and on, and yes, Maury Wills, who was on the same veteran’s committee list as Hodges last year and missed by a couple of votes. I do not get why Bradley has singled out Rolen. The guy was a stud at third base. If Brooks Robinson is in for his glove, he is certainly not in for his bat, then Rolen belongs.
The hall voting system is not perfect. Nothing is. Some very good players have missed induction, and some who were way below borderline got in. It is always tough to get in on the writer’s ballot. A vast majority never make it past their first year. It is also becoming very difficult to get in on the Veteran’s committee. This year both Bonds and Clemens were on that ballot. They came nowhere near the 12 votes needed for election. McGwire missed his one time on the ballot. Next year will be the first time on the ballot for the following players, Beltre, Mauer, Utley, David Wright, Colon, Matt Holliday. Adrian Gonzalez, Jose Batista, Jose Reyes, Victor Martinez, James Shields, Chase Headley, Ryan Madson, and Brandon Morrow. Helton, Wagner, Sheffield, Jones, Beltran, Rodriguez, Manny, Vizquel, Rollins, Abreu, Petite, Buehrle, Francisco Rodriguez and Tori Hunter are the holdovers from this year’s vote. Sheffield will be on his last ballot, Wagner his 9th. Ichiro and CC Sabathia headline the 2025 ballot.