Shohei Ohtani is hitting at the Big A
Well, here we go. Most know where I stand on the Dodgers going all in on Shohei Ohtani this winter. And, like many other times in my life, I might be totally wrong and off base. No one is perfect; we all make mistakes. In my opinion, which to the Dodgers means nothing, I think that whatever money is available come this winter, they should make multiple additions to the team, fill the obvious holes, and not drop 400 plus million over 10 years on anyone, let alone a guy who only pitches once a week and never plays the field the rest of the time, but is purely a designated hitter.
Again, in my humble, not worth spit opinion, Ohtani is not a true two-way player. A true two-way player plays a defensive position when he is not pitching. Babe Ruth was a true two-way player. And by all accounts of those who saw the Babe play, he was a very good defensive right fielder. Over his career, he had 204 assists from the outfield, most of those when he was playing right. As a pitcher, he walked almost as many as he struck out, but he had a career ERA of 2.28, and he also registered 107 complete games.
There is no question in anyone’s mind, even mine, that Ohtani is a very talented player. I just believe calling him the best in the game is going overboard. My comparison comes from music. There have been many singers and entertainers who have come down the pipe, and get the title, the best ever heaped on them. It’s a different world now. Singers today have more than one or two outlets to showcase their talents. I doubt Hank Williams ever played to 60,000 people at one time, or like those who do the Super Bowl Halftime Show on TV for millions of viewers. So many do not know, except by old records or grainy old videos, just how talented he was.
The way baseball is sold today, all the highlights are on ESPN every night or the MLB Network. You see the good, the bad, and the ugly. You also see the comedic side of the game. All we have of Ruth are some very old and grainy videos, the memories of those who actually saw him play, not many of those left, and the record books. Until 1961, Babe had the longest scoreless innings in World Series play streak. 29 2/3rds. Whitey Ford passed it, and it now stands at 33.2.
Babe still holds four MLB records, thirty-one American League records and a handful more AL records that have been tied. And it has been 88 years since he retired from the game. He also has the highest WAR of any player in MLB history by almost 20 over Barry Bonds. Sorry, Ohtani is not the second coming of Babe Ruth. He might end up with a better career pitching record than Ruth, 94-46 2.28. Ohtani is 37-19. But he will never come close to Ruth’s hitting prowess.
Fans of this era will probably not see this combination of pitching and hitting skills again. Just like fans of my era, will never see players like Mays, Mantle, Koufax, Gibson, and many others. Players today make a lot more money, are in better shape physically, and most are much better athletes than the old guys. They eat better, travel by plane, live in much better conditions, and actually do not have to work in the off-season and can work out whenever they want.
It is nearly impossible to compare eras. Babe also spent several years playing during what was known as the dead-ball era. Many of the stadiums he played in no longer exist. Many of them also had huge dimensions. Today’s ballparks are not as large. But again, Babe usually faced the same pitcher multiple times in a game. Now, there are all sorts of relief pitchers who are specialists. So, every era has had different challenges for the hitters.
Now comes the hard part. Do the Dodgers take the chance and spend hundreds of millions of dollars on one player? Many of you will have differing opinions on this. And those are what I would like to hear. I myself prefer that they spend the money on more than just one player, even if he does fill two roles. What do you think???
Ohtani pitching at the Big A
I am in your camp, Bear. While Ohtani may be the best player in baseball, he is 30 years old, and it is naive to think he will not break down again. You said $$400 Million for ten years, but I think he is going to get $500 Million if he wants ten years. The Giants or the Mets will pay that. Maybe he only wants to play until he is 38. I could see him seeking (and getting) an eight-year/$400 Million deal. That’s $50 Mil a year. That’s 20% of the Dodgers team salary allotted to one player. Andrew Friedman is not that stupid.
Yes, the Dodgers will sell some more jerseys and ads, but the Dodger Brand is one of the strongest brands in the world. They do not need Ohtani to brand them. So many of you say he is two players. OK, what happens when he gets injured? You lose two players and yet you only have one spot.
He will get injured. That’s not the question. The only question is, how long? We have seen it with JDM as he is facing his second stint on the IL. That is what happens to players in their mid-30s!
I would rather have three or four other free agents than Ohtani. Duke asked who the other day, and I did not have time to respond, but I would try and sign Travis d’Arnaud for about $10 Million a year for three years. I would then split the DH with Will Smith and Max Muncy, with Will catching about 60 to 80 games a year and d’Arnaud catching the rest. Travis is not a superstar, but the Dodgers already have Mookie, Freddie, and Will. They need complementary players.
Next, I would sign Matt Chapman. I think $20 Milllion for 5 years would get it.Thast leaves me $20 million to get a pitcher like Blake Snell.
The Dodgers would absolutely be a better team with this lineup than with Ohtani:
1. Betts RF
2. Freeman 1B
3. Smith C/DH
4. Chapman 3B
5. d’Arnaud C
6. Outman CF
7. Busch 2B
8. Vargas LF
9. Rojas SS
Muncy slots at #5 when a RH is pitching.
Blake Snell is in the rotation. Same $$$$ – Better Return! Safer return.
You have to get the youngsters in. This year was the transition year. Next year, two have to step in. I like watching Shohei, but people (including the stupid media) who say the he is in the Dodger’s plans do not understand how Andrew Friedman will mitigate the risks and not have all his eggs in one basket. Watch and learn!
Interesting.
Will and Max sharing DH duties makes a lot of sense.
I like d’Arnaud but he will be 35 before spring training. (Alternatives?)
I love Chapman, of course. I think AF blew it when the Blue Jays got him.
And you better get the word out to OKC to put Miguelito in LF and move Busch back to 2B.
You forgot about Lux…
Centerfield, perhaps?
They tried that. He cannot play the outfield.
They tried it for about 10 min.
Give him a full off season and spring training and I think he would be fine.
Maybe, I just do not think he is all that comfortable out there.
Too much money and too much risk for Ohtoni on the downside of his career years.Use the 50 million for 3 or 4 players. Some team will regret signing him long term. The Dodgers certainty don’t need the revenue he will generate.
What Michael and Mark ssid.
NOhtani
(Sorry Matt & DNS)
NO worries IM a fan of the team whether we sign him or not. I have faith in the front office that they know what they are doing….
I can see AF making an offer to Ohtani along the lines of that he did with Bryce Harper. Ohtani will turn it down. AF’s plan A will be to sign several players and get under the CBA agreement as well as let the youngsters play.
Of course, AF will drive up the price, and I agree that he will offer something similar to what he did to Harper!
I can see a five year offer at around $42 AAV but not much more. Would love to have Ohtani in Dodger Blue but it will
Be the Giants who go the $50 AAV route as evidenced by them being in on Judge and Correira.
Miller pitched great last night and if he continues he will get a post season start or two. Trienen growing 97 MPH in BP. Can he be a post season addition?
Bear –
Great article! While I don’t always agree, I want to thank you and the overwhelming majority of LADT posters for their insights on Dodger baseball. I look forward to starting my day with the substantive and entertaining discussion on my favorite topic – baseball!
There are several other LADT posters I read daily – DukeNot Snider, philjones, Dodgerpatch, Jayne Cobb, Mark “the straw that stirs the drink” Timmons, and others who are continuing my baseball education at 77 years old!
Yesterday’s thoughtful discussion of the following topics – Ohtani vs. other free agent options; Gaterol’s lack of movement on his fastball; and even a discussion on the immortal Vin Scully – is a classic example. Not only did I read some thoughts to ponder, I started my day with a few chuckles at the clever way they were expressed!
Thanks to LADT for regularly providing such a wonderful experience!
Thank you for the Kudo’s Tom. We try our best. I would at this point like to congratulate Mark on being able to consistently come up with topics for discussion. Since it is down to just him and I doing the articles, and him running his business also, it takes time and dedication to keep the site current. Others that have tried to do so have failed. Jeff also does a great job over on Dodger Chronicles. I am trying to help as much as I can, I have surgery coming up next month that is not major, but it will limit my vision for a week or so. That makes it a little difficult to do research.
Good luck. with the cataract surgery- I couldn’t be more pleased with mine, no more distance glasses at age 86,! You will be delighted! Thanks for all insight a a terrific forum.
I had cataract surgery two years ago, this procedure will remove sagging skin from above my eyelids. I have Bells Palsy. It causes one side of your face to sag.
Sure hope they take it easy with Walker Buehler this year. If it was up to me he wouldn’t pitch at all until 2024. No need to rush him.
As far as Ohtani goes, I think he will end up in SF, Seattle or SD. Be nice to have but it’s not a move AF makes in my opinion. He already has 3 players making huge salaries(Kershaw, Betts, Freeman).
The medical staff will make the final decision. Buehler is ahead of schedule if you ask him. Roberts has said if Buehler is activated before the end of the season, and to be eligible for the post season he has to be on the roster by September 1st, he will only be used as a starter. That means he would be used as an opener until he built up innings. 2 or 3 to start and go from there. He will not be used out of the bullpen.
Ohtani is a marketing cash machine! This may not be Friedman call! The powers that be may want that gushing flow of revenue he brings, this might be more than an onfield baseball decision. Me. No way! Improve at 3rd &maybe an outfielder and bullpen improved. Nice win last night, please play better at home against the Rockies! Pads 14 out in the loss column! With a good series against Rockies dodgers could have second best record in baseball Sunday evening!
Bring Cody back.
Get a real 3rd baseman, Chapman or Aeranado. ( I believe St. Louis will complete their reload over the winter)
Betts
Freeman
Smith
Bellinger
Aeranado
Muncy dh
Outman
Vargas
Lux
Develop pitching, don’t buy it.
Just a note on how today’s players are much fitter and in better shape. I remember Ted Kluszewski, who played in 1950s for the Reds, as a big ,strong muscular guy. His arms so muscular that he couldn’t wear an undershirt. If you look at his picture he looks almost ‘puny’ (well not quite) , but still not so intimidating. Same for wrestler Killer Kowalski. Same idea.
So players have to be rated on who they played against, not on modern players. Same for every sport.
Big Klu. He cut the sleeves off of all his uni’s. Hit two homers in game one of the 59 series. Just a huge guy. He was 6’2″ 225 pounds. But I remember how huge Frank Howard was 6’7″ 265. Standing next to either of those guys I would be very intimidated.
Yup David, one of the most remarkable parts of baseball today is the size of the players. Ted K loved putting on a “gun show” for sure. Pitchers are huge now. I’ve said a lot how Fall Ball is amazing; just one 6’4″ to 6’8″, 220 to 240 guy after another paraded out there. How many Eddy De La Cruz bodies did we see back in my day? Aaron Judge?
Kershaw is 6’4″. If I was still coaching high school, I would now be at the elementary and middle school basketball practices asking if the tall kids had ever pitched. I remember seeing a picture awhile back if the Dodger infielders, past and present. I was like Bellinger , Seager and somebody standing next to Garvey, Lopes and Cey. The old guys looked like midgets.
When I watch college games and A+ games locally, I’m amazed and the size and athleticism.
I saw Bob Gibson’s uni in the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame in KC, and it was way smaller than I had anticipated. As a kid, I thought he was giant. He wasn’t
Lets talk about that in the off season.
Lets focus on THIS team. This is a really good team.
Im enjoying the ride….
seriously. What a fun “team” to watch as of late.
People started debating this before the trade deadline and before the Angels finally said we are not trading him. It is still one of the biggest stories in baseball. Everyone is trying to guess where Ohtani will end up. And as each win as a pitcher and homer as a hitter occurs, it will be dredged up again. Yep, this team is playing well, but about two weeks ago when they came off of that horrible homestand, people were yelling about getting help at the deadline and they had not gotten enough. This is a really good team NOW. Fans did not think so prior to the trade deadline. Bitching about the starting rotation, bullpen, bench, you name it, they did not like it, including many posters here. Fans groaned about getting Lynn and not Giolito. Lynn is 2-0 as a Dodger, Giolito 0-2 as an Angel. Both Hernandez and Rosario have played well. Kike seems revitalized, Rosario is happy to do what ever the team wants. Even Kelly has looked like he did in 18 when he pitched against LA in the World Series. SO yeah, enjoy the ride.
Muncy and Martinez are both one dimensional players in a different way. Martinez can’t play the field and Muncy can’t hit right handed pitching. Muncy has the 3rd most AB’s versus Lt. handed pitching on the Dodgers behind Betts and Freeman. A difference between the two is Martinez is a free agent after the season while the Dodgers hold a ten million club option on Muncy, this contract includes incentives. I don’t think the Dodgers get Martinez back for $10 million. I still strongly believe that next season should be a transition year for Smith, he can catch and DH but he needs to start getting reps either at 3rd or Left Field, if I were king it would be third. As far as positional players I feel the Dodgers biggest need is a catcher to play at least half of the games when Smith is playing elsewhere, preferably one already in the organization. Vargas needs to play second or the Dodgers need to cut bait (Betts looks better there everyday.) I’d keep Vargas, he’s gong to be above average MLB player. It’s time for Busch, again bring him up or cut bait, use him in a trade to get a catcher or whoever. For me, Busch starts at 3rd. Lux at short with Rojas as the utility man, he’s signed for next season and an option for 25.
Positional players: Smith-Feduccia-Freeman-Vargas-Lux-Rojas-Busch-DuLuca-Outman-Betts. This leaves three spots that management gets cheap veteran players whom the Dodgers can “fix.” I’d love to keep Muncy but not at $10 million.
Pitching: Hopefully Kershaw, Buehler, Gonsolin he is signed through next season, Lynn he has a 18 Million dollar option for 24, Miller. Yabrough, haven’t seen enough to have an opinion, Sheehan Stone, Grove Knack. All of these guys would be on the 40 man but not necessarily on the 26 man roster. May, Phillips Graterol, Ferguson, Braiser. Hopefully mangement can bring in a couple of bullpen arms especially left handed pitchers.
This squad can win the division. I’m sure there would be some tinkering around the trade deadline because of some of the younger players not being ready. This gets us under all tax penalties, gives valuable experience to our next wave but with a strong veteran presence.
We have been talking about a lack of starting pitching for the Dodgers. It is surprising how many options they have for 2024:
VETERANS:
Buehler-Is he ok?
Kershaw- Is he still here?
Lynn- Is he still here?
GONE:
May- Gone to the bullpen
Gonsolin- Gone to the bullpen or just gone
Urias- Just gone
WHERE OUR ROTATION COMES FROM:
Miller
Sheehan
Grove
Stone
Pepiot
Knack
Yarbrough
Looks to me like we have a lot of options for next year without any additional help form the minors.
I also think they will look at some free agents. But we know one thing for certain, There will be changes in the bullpen. There always are.
Bear, this is a very rationale take.
However, I think it’s important to bring up this Andrew Friedman quote, “If you’re always rational about every free agent, you will finish third on every free agent.”
Friedman has also shown a propensity for being very aggressive with superstars.
There’s too much fire for the Dodgers to just sit idle, and the opportunity is too perfect. From a pitching, hitting and market expanding standpoint.
Well said Bluto and I totally get it. But, I believe, like a previous poster said, that this decision is not going to be made by Freidman alone. The ownership will be the ones who decide whether or not to go all in. Some think the price tag could go as high as 600 million. Do you honestly think that ownership would spend that kind of money on one player. Not only that, but the pressure also to live up to that contract would be enormous. And say he gets injured in spring training, which has happened more than some think, and can’t play for 10 weeks. Freidman can say things all day long, but the final decision is not going to be his.
Not too sure about that.
About the final decision not being his??? Cmon, you really believe he will commit that much money without ownership approving it? He would be in the unemployment line in about 10 minutes. He has to get approval before every long-term deal and legal is in on it too along with their insurance advisors. Insurance on a deal like that has to be very high.
I would not be surprised if the ownership group simply gave Friedman a top end # that they could live with to have Ohtani. I would BE surprised if that number hasn’t already been known and communicated.
Friedman just has to stay at or under that number.
Otherwise it’s just an untenable workplace.
You could be right. I just have to believe there are a lot of variables that will be added and a lot will depend on what CK decides.
I watched part of Lorenzen’s no-hitter last night. It was late in the game, so it looked to me like the Nationals were just trying to break up the no-hitter and were swinging at pitches even close to the zone. He ended up with over 120 pitches on the night. The Phillies are using a six-man rotation and have several off days coming up, so he will have plenty of rest before his next start. Lorenzen is a free agent this winter along with Snell, Montgomery and Flaherty. I also watch the first four innings of the Loons game. Maddux Bruns threw 78 pitches and got into the 5th inning. Dodgers picked up ground on all three of their closest competitors. Ohtani shut down the Giants. And the Padres as the song says, are slip-sliding away. I like Mark’s idea of getting d’Arnaud as a free agent. They had him for about a week before he finally ended up with Atlanta. But what do they do with Barnes? Signed through next season with an option for 25. And the pitchers love the guy.
Say NO to OH!
Too much $$$, too many years……adds stress….I learned this from the Trevor Bauer signing. I know, I know, Oh is not Trevor Bauer.
Wednesday scores
Tacoma 6, Oklahoma City 4
Amarillo 7, Tulsa 4
Great Lakes 5, West Michigan 1
Inland Empire 7, Rancho Cucamonga 4
Thursday schedule
4:05 p.m. PT: Great Lakes (Hyun-il Choi) vs. West Michigan (Troy Melton)
5:05 p.m.: Tulsa (River Ryan) vs. Amarillo (Yu-Min Lin)
6:30 p.m.: Rancho Cucamonga (Christian Romero) vs. Inland Empire (Leonard Garcia)
7:05 p.m.: Oklahoma City (TBD; Emmet Sheehan?) at Tacoma (Darren McCaughan)
Michael Busch continued to run roughshod over the Pacific Coast League.
Busch homered twice on Wednesday night in Tacoma, giving him 15 home runs in 33 games since getting optioned down to Oklahoma City.
I totally agree with the majority that going all out for a tiny would be a mistake likely. However, the one thing I disagree with is the people who say that if he was ever injured so that he couldn’t pitch you’d have a super expensive DH. Everything I’ve heard said he is close to a gold glove caliber outfielder and he could certainly play first base once Freddy is no longer there. Just saying.
It depends upon the injury.
Let’s say he has TJ – he ain’t playing anywhere… not even DH.
He has played 7 games as an outfielder in the majors. He has never played 1st base. It is not that easy. And he played less than 100 games in the outfield in Japan. So I dispute that he could be a gold glove caliber outfielder. One, he has to learn how to run routes. No doubt he is an intelligent guy but reading the ball off of the bat and doing it during the heat of a game, not as easy as one might think.
d’Arnaud signed a 1 year extension for 2024.
Thanks, I did not know that!
Still could get traded.
Lorenzen is guy we could have gotten. He was traded for almost nothing
Flavor of the Day. It’s like German with the Yankees – before he got suspended he pitched a no-no and his ERA is 4.56. Lorenzen is also having his best year, but I would rather have Lance Lynn. I watched Lorenzen at Cincy. He is a spaz!
White Sox picked up former Yankee phenom, Deivi Garcia off of waivers.
My take on the Ohtani debate:
If you can get him for 10 years for 400 million you do it.
IMHO a no brainer on and off the field.
You would still have enough money to bring in a guy like Chapman to play 3b, sign Clayton to another 1 year deal if he wants plus bring in a guy like Snell.
We arej a projected 137 million below the luxury tax when this season in the books so there will be enough money for Ohtani and other considerations.
I am perfectly fine with Vargas and Busch in LF and 2b.
Betts , rf
Freddie, 1b
Smtih, c
Ohtani, DH
Chapman, 3b
Vargas, LF
Outman, cf
Lux, ss
Busch, 2b
That is a great lineup.
Ohtani, Clayton, Walker, Miller, Snell = great rotation.
Move May to closer when he comes back and with him and Phillpps you have two lockdown guys who both can close out games.
Do it , AF !
BTW, horrific one sided umpiring behind the plate yet again yesterday. Bobby Miller alone was probably squeeze half a dozen times on that same inside pitch the D-Backs got called for strikes.
Oh, and what a job by Caleb in the 7th two clean up the 2nd and 3rd with none out situations. That was clutch.
Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!
Okay, I can make the arguments either way.
Start with the Dodgers signing Ohtani, but with an eye toward the brand and creating additional revenue streams.
So what do we know about how much the Angels benefit financially from having Ohtani on the team.
Well, they don’t say much, other than if they traded Ohtani at the deadline they would lose approximately $20 million between then and the remainder of the season. That’s a significant amount of revenue. We do know the Angels have 16 sponsorships, not to mention streaming deals tied to Ohtani. Big overseas market. Then there are additional ticket sales, merchandising and other associated revenues. It has been estimated the revenues the Angels gain is in the 10s of millions.
While the Dodgers brand is significant the organization never misses an opportunity to expand their world wide brand.
Branding and the revenues you generate is a complicated subject, but obviously, depending on a team’s goals, it is part of the equation.
When the organization group spent two billion to acquire the Dodgers, it had obviously more to do about something more they saw than just buying a baseball team. The owners saw an opportunity to create something special. Granted, they had to be in a market like Los Angeles to do it.
Now the two billion looks like a bargain. But back then,the new owners looked a tad crazy, paying twice what the team was worth, even if the team was the Dodgers. The Dodgers are a revenue generating machine.
So if the Ohtani deal happens, what do the Dodgers see that you don’t.
Then there is the straight baseball side. Do the Dodgers need Ohtani to win the NL West. No, they do not. Will he be the
difference maker in the Dodgers winning a World Series. Maybe, maybe not.
From a pure baseball point, you can certainly make the argument that a team, as others have done here, could spend all that money better by spreading it around and filling a variety of needs with quality players.
If this is just about baseball and winning, I would probably say that approach makes more sense.
But if it’s about the other, the bigger picture, it might make a lot sense to grab Ohtani.
I’m sure the Dodgers already have estimates about what that means financially and what that might mean to future revenue streams.
Oh and we should give Bear the credit he deserves. Lorenzen would have been a pretty good pick-up.
Yeah, Lorenzen is looking pretty good…
Mark remarked that Ohtani “will look good in a Giants uniform.” And he very well might! The Giants’ best player now is probably Logan Webb. They are a team of overachieving non-stars who have outplayed the star-studded Padres. A couple years back, they somehow won 107 when the Dodgers won 106.
Midgets? I don’t think so.
Ohtani launching balls into McCovey Cove would be something to see, regardless of uniform.
Maybe the Giants can pull it off. It would certainly spice up the rivalry.
Whether the Dodgers land Ohtani or not, the Dodgers will be fine. But I ‘d prefer that the Dodgers be more than just fine. I’ll settle for spectacular.
In recent years, the Dodgers have commited more than $30m AAV to at least two teammates a few times. Mookie, Kersh and Bauer all signed contracts that netted more thatn $30mAAV. Freddie’s AAV is $27m. The cost of balling has gone up since those contracts were signed–but there must be some buyers’ remorse out there too, and that goes well beyond Bauer.
The unique concerns of a two-way player could favor bigger AAV over a short-term deal instead of the 10- or 12-year commitments l that many expect.
For Ohtani, I wouldn’t be surprised if we see something like a six-year deal for $330m, or $55m AAV from the Dodgers, and bigger offers elsewhere. Hell, the Mets committed more than $80 million to two pitchers in their 40s.
I agree with most of what Bear has said on Ohtani. However, where we part ways is on the historic nature of Ohtani’s performance. I don’t believe I have ever seen a better player with my own eyes. He can simply do everything. And given his athleticism, I don’t doubt for a second that he could play the outfield. As long as he’s pitching that isn’t going to happen. There is now way you risk his arm to any additional stress on his non pitching days. But if, at some point, he ends up just being a position player I have little doubt he could play the field. He just that good of an athlete.
Where we agree is on the financial risk. I have said for ages that the only way Ohtani ends up a Dodger is if he is dead set on playing for the team. The Dodgers will not be competitive for his services from a contract point of view. A lot of Dodger fans are completely delusional when it comes to this. “Dodgers have all true money in the world, they’ll pay him whatever he wants”. I see that on Twitter every day. The Dodgers do have the money. But they also know that throwing it around recklessly doesn’t win baseball games. Ask the Mets and the Padres. The Dodgers will approach Ohtani the same way they approach every free agent. They’ll offer a deal that makes sense to them and it will be up to Ohtani if he takes it. He likely won’t. And the Dodgers will move on.
One thing I do hear over and over again is the incorrect assertion that Ohtani will bring in a lot of international money. The Angels have signed lucrative deals for in stadium advertising. That is true. But teams only get revenue from their own markets. TV, advertising ect. International revenue is controlled by MLB. They have a subsidiary that hold the rights to both National and International revenue. That money goes into a big pool which is shared by all the teams equally. The Angels don’t get the revenue for games that air in Japan. That goes to the league as a whole. So yes, he would bring in additional revenue to any team that signs him, but it’s not as much as many fans believe.
I myself Jayne have seen several who are as good if not better than Ohtani. And they were complete players. Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Griffey Jr, just to name a few. Better hitters, Ichiro, Brett, Gwynn, Clemente, Mays, Bonds before he went all PED. He is a talented pitcher, but he is no Ace. He is on the Angels because their pitching has sucked for ages. He would be a number 3 in LA. He has power, and he has some speed. But IMHO there is not a single athlete in the world worth that kind of money. Especially in a team-oriented game like baseball.
None of those guys could strike out Ohtani.
You are clearly biased against pitchers. You didn’t name a single one.
Oh I can name several. Koufax, Gibson, Carlton, Spahn, Drysdale, Kershaw. Johnson. Martinez…you want me to go on???? Please. He is a very good pitcher and a good hitter with power. Because he also pitches, everyone thinks he is the cat’s whiskers. Great. I disagree and I have given my reasons. I do not think he is worth that kind of money at his age. Period.
Can’t agree with you on that one Bear. A career ERA of 3.00 with a 1 WHIP. 11 strikeouts per 9.
Those numbers are better than Verlander or Cole in their careers. I don’t know how you can’t classify him as an ace. He’d be the #1 on 3/4 of the teams in baseball.
And “he has power”. No, he is one of the best power hitters in baseball. If not THE best. There is an easy way to measure that. He has more home runs than anybody else. In the AL he is 1st in HRs, 3rd in batting average, 3rd in RBIs and 3rd in hits. 1st I’m slugging %, 1st in OPS, 1st in OPS+ and first in OWAR.
He’d be the favorite for MVP without taking his pitching into account.
So while agree he’s not worh the money people are speculating will be his next contract, he’s the best player in baseball. I don’t want the Dodgers to sign him to some dope fiend deal. But let’s not discount just how good he is. He win the AL MVP, again. And this year it won’t be close.
Well, that is your prerogative. I have no problem with dissenting opinions. I stated mine. I have seen plenty of Ace pitchers in my years watching the game. Those guys on any given day could go out and do something really special. I do not get that vibe when I see him pitch. His walk rate is a shade over 3. He has a good K rate per 9, but how long is he going to be able to pitch at that level? He has had numbness in a finger on his pitching hand. As for his power, Olsen has almost caught him for the most homers in MLB and Alonso is coming fast. So he does many things very well. That’s fine. I get it. But I do not think he is the best I have ever seen. Not even close.
Mays, Mantle, Aaron? SCRUBS!!
Ohtani would strike them all out with three pitches. Today’s game is different. The players are different. They’re bigger and stronger and throw harder. Physical conditioning back in those days meant jogging a few laps around the diamond during Spring Training. Supplements and sports nutrition back then consisted of two fingers of whiskey before the game.
Horse manure. Pure speculation. Mays and Aaron did not do those kinds of things. Mantle, well he was a different story. I can picture Aaron hitting a line drive right back through the box, he was a great hitter. Ohtani is no Koufax.
* I say “NoOhtani” for all the reasons Bear said.
* I warned you about that umpiring crew led by Adrian Johnson. They didn’t disappoint. Many Gonzales was brutal and seemed to pick big pitches to display his ineptitude. And the safe call on CT3 by Paul Clemons at 2nd was humorous. He was out by 10 feet and somehow Clemons missed it in real time and we had to go to an unnecessary replay. How do you miss that?
* Miller was fun to watch and D-Train was insightful about how he’s getting opportunities to experience and learn. He has awesome ability and he has to learn how to get outs of jams. I loved the post-outing chat with Doc on the rail.
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall to listen to that conversation. I love Miller’s competitiveness and stuff. I look forward to a rotation next year that included Buehler, Miller, May and Kershaw.
* Muncy did it again in the 8th with 2 on. He got an advantage count, yet again, only to take a fat 92mph fastball center-cut and slightly elevated. WTF would he be looking for other than a fat, elevated fastball? He eventually got his favorite outcome, a walk. I would have preferred he tried to pick up an RBI or 3, by swinging the bat.
* Kelly is so weird. He came in with a 2 run lead and his first pitch was a 100 with run. Do that! He then threw 5 consecutive sliders to walk Marte. I don’t get Smith with that sequence either. Trust the fastball! He did and blew away Gurriel with 3 heaters and K’ed Walker. Remember when he threw like 24 consecutive sliders a a game? He throws a “knuckle-busting heater” yet he wants to trick em.
* How about Freddie’s stretch on Rojas’ nice play in the 9th? Big man can do the splits.
* I’ve been to Chase Field quite a bit and I have fun there. I take the light-rail and get off in front of the stadium where there are some fun watering holes 20 feet away. I like the ballpark when it’s cool enough to open the roof and the panels so it doesn’t feel like they’re playing in a hangar. But it is the most distracting place to watch a game on TV. I try to ignore the background behind home plate but it’s so distracting, my eyes just go there. It is so busy. Those ground level seats behind the screen are in constant flux and worse is the wide isle just a shade to the first base side. It’s like I-5 or the 10. There’s a constant steam of traffic up and down that isle, as it is the access to the bar and the rest rooms. While other stadiums have a backdrop of seated fans, Chase has a super highway of activity that I find distracting.
Totally agree Phil the umpiring this season has been atrocious. And there seems to be at least one in each crew that is awful. This crew has several.
Freddie’s fielding is very impressive. Another gold glove is a real possibility–and the Silver Slugger is in the bag.
The only glitch was the high throw to Max on the potential double play.
I’m still waiting for our NOhtani lobby to make a case for what they want over winter.
What are your priorities?
Is it to keep Kersh and Julio?
Bring back Belli?
Bring in Chapman?
How about a full youth movement to get below the salary cap? AF could just say no to Kersh and Julio and bring up the rookies. He could dump Max’s $10 million option and put Busch at 3B, right?
Just wondering what everyone has on their wish list.
That is definitely food for thought. The bullpen will be rebuilt, it always is. I see Graterol, Phillips and Ferguson as locks. The rest, let’s just say I have rarely over the last several years seen some pitchers back for consecutive years. First base, right field, catcher are pretty much set for next year. Depending on how they feel about it after a year away from the game, Lux will get first shot at SS. Rojas as his caddy. Outside of Outman, and Betts, the outfield will be in flux also. As will the bench. I would like them to sign a solid third baseman, Chapman would be nice, if they are not going to use Vargas or Busch there. Muncy can DH. I see only two locks in the rotation at this point, Miller and Gonsolin. Urias in my mind is gone. I think Kersh will either retire or maybe move on to Texas to be closer to family. So they will be in the starting pitcher market. They do have in house options, Sheehan, Grove, Stone, Pepiot. I also think they might be more active on the trade market this winter than they have been in a while. Of course, they could decide to keep Heyward and Peralta for another year, but I really think that is doubtful, one maybe, not both. They can pivot from Taylor to Hernandez as their super U guy if they can find someone to take CT-3. If they pick up Lynn’s option, possible, then the pitching needs are a little less critical. Not sure what they think about Yarbrough. Guy has pitched in one game since the trade and I am pretty sure he is a free agent. I also think a lot hinges on how far they get in the playoffs.
Your starting rotation is Gonsolin and four unproven rookies?
That’s definitely fiscally responsible … and not a bad strategy if you’re the … whatever city the A’s will be playing for.
Patch, that would be dumb. They will most likely sign a free agent or two. If they exercise Lynn’s option, he will be in the rotation. Maybe it is time they reset and brought in young blood. It seems to work for Atlanta. Buehler would be on the list, but I need to see him pitch in spring training and make sure he is healthy first.
Max’s walk led to Peralta’s hit, didn’t it?
Max might have clobbered that high strike–or he might have popped it up.
His patience was rewarded. As I recall it, he fouled off a pitch or two and then got ball four.
That’s the “next man up” approach, and Peralta delivered.
Great road trip for the Dodgers!
Finished 5-1 and could have won the other game as well.
Love the professionalism and consistency of the whole team, and the leadership of the top players. The starting pitching looked much better this trip with 5 solid performances and even Gonsolin finishing 6 innings in his outing. Urias has looked great the last two starts, Miller was dominant, and Lynn is an innings eating grinder. It will be interesting how Yarbrough is used but he impressed in his first appearance.
And after a 6 week absence, we get another Kershaw Day!
Whose going down when Clayton gets activated today ?
Vesia ?Caleb? Who has options left ?
Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They could do Bobby Miller and then recall him in the next 5 days. He really would not go down.
I think if you go down, you need to wait 15 days unless there’s an IL designation.
You are correct! Sorry.
isn’t it 10 days, barring an injury?
If they don’t put Gonsolin on the IL I would assume that Gonzalez goes back down.
Good question. I would guess Vesia. Miller could go down, but maybe an IL stint for Gonsolin.
Ok kids: anyone from this lovely board going to the game tonight?
I’ll be there, so as usual, I’d love to meet up with anyone else from this board and discuss Dave Roberts, Ohtani, and the Trashtros!
LATEST NEWS
Aug. 9: RHP Walker Buehler (Tommy John surgery) faces hitters
Buehler threw a 15-20 pitch session to hitters from the Dodgers’ Arizona Complex League, clocking in at 92-93 mph at Chase Field ahead of the Dodgers’ series finale vs. the D-backs. According to manager Dave Roberts, “It went really well, much better than I expected.”
When asked if he feels his recovery process is almost complete, Buehler said, “I think there’s a bunch of checkpoints, right? So when we start throwing, and when you start throwing bullpens, and now hitters and then games, and so you can kind of take little chunks at a time, and it’s kind of what you got to do.”
Buehler added that he’ll need four or five throwing sessions to hitters before doing anything in-game. He targeted Sept. 1 as his return date but says he’ll likely still need more rehab.
“I’m pretty proud of where I am right now,” Buehler said. “I don’t think Sept. 1 is a reality, but I’m hoping sometime soon.”
A whole lot of people here have completely internalized Friedmanthink.
“Don’t over-commit to long-term contracts, especially to players at the age 30 level. You have to maintain financial flexibility. Instead, you need to look for value rather than name brand stars.”
Yeah, I totally agree with that approach, and I think Friedman has done an outstanding job of not doing dope fiend moves. The proof is in the win/loss record over the past decade, and the health of the farm system. The organization is healthy, and it’s long term outlook looks great.
Where your thinking fails is in your foolish consistency – you know, that thing about it being the hobgoblin of little minds.
If it was up to you Ohtani naysayers the Dodgers would’ve never traded for and signed Mookie. That was a really un-Friedmanlike move.
“Why do that?! AF could’ve saved money by only paying Alex Verdugo the league minimum … and he’s gonna be the next Tony Gwynn!! I know it!!”
Friedman has a process. It’s worked. It gives him financial flexibility, but with the house money that the financial flexibility gives him he’s also been willing to ditch the process and go after someone he thinks is really special. No, not people like Bryce Harper, who he was only willing to give a front loaded short term deal, but truly exceptional players – like Mookie.
Some of you people! Are you seriously saying that the player you’d rather target this off-season, instead of Ohtani, is …. wait for it … Travis D’Arnaud? LOL!
Travis D’Arnaud?!
“Yeah, but he’d be way cheaper than Ohtani!”
We as fans have the opportunity to watch the greatest, most unique player of a generation play for the Dodgers, and you’re saying you don’t want to see that?
“It’s not fiscally responsible!”
The Dodgers will be 137 million under the cap. They can sign Ohtani for whatever he wants, buy some more players like Travis Frikken D’Arnaud, and still have some left over do give Will Smith and Beuhler raises in a couple of years.
“Ohtani’s not that good. Back in my day when Koufax played we didn’t have any of these fancy smancy new fangled players hitting and pitching. That’s not the way baseball is supposed to be played! He doesn’t even use chewin’ tobacco! I never see him spit!”
Bunch of grumpy, old curmudgeons here. Yeah, he’ll likely get injured at some point. It’s a lot of money. It might not provide value at the end of the contract. Ok.
I think it would be a very special privilege to watch him play for the Dodgers.
Sometimes Patch you just make up shit. Being old has not a damn thing to do with it. Freidman trading for Betts and then giving him a 12-year contract has nothing to do with Ohtani either. You have to take it on a player-by-player scale. They did not pay Freeman crazy money, and he is a better hitter than Ohtani. Doesn’t have his power, but he strikes out less. Is just ahead of Ohtani in extra base hits. I personally do not care which way they go. But I believe signing him to a 10-year contract for what most think he will command is dumb. He is one of a kind, I recognize that. If the Dodgers could get him at a reasonable cost, I have no problem with that either. I just don’t think he is worth 5 or 6 hundred million dollars. Not when you have so many other needs. I think labeling a guy who has played in the majors for five years the greatest of this generation is going a little too far. People toss that greatest tag around too freely. d’Arnaud was tossed out there as a option to help Smith stay healthy and productive. Yet you try to make it sound like he is the main target. Get a grip dude. There will be plenty of other options available. I think at the salaries these guys get; they should be happy people want to see them play. We pay too much money to feel privileged.
Bear,
What is the last non-superstar Friedman has pursued on the open market?
Other than superstars, he value shops.
He only value shops.
He’s not going to go after a D’Arnaud or Chapman. They aren’t going to take 80% of the potential Ohtani money and spend it on lesser stars. He only seems to spend real money on stars. You can bring up Bauer, but Bauer was a star. Cy Young winner. Inning hog.
Other than that it’s Chris Taylor, Max Muncy, Thor, Hayward. Value shopping.
There’s just way too much smoke around Ohtani and Ohtani is the best player in baseball right now.
Bauer won the Cy Young in a 60-game season. He was the best pitcher on the market and Freidman bit the bait. Bauer was a mistake. Period. I do not see smoke. I see a bunch of fans grasping at straws and hoping the Dodgers do something incredibly dumb and drop 500 mil on a 30-year-old player. Angels did the equivalent of that when they signed the best player in the game, Albert Pujols. Never won a damn thing with Pujols on the team. I think Chapman is highly possible. Although maybe not probable. How do you figure 80 percent of perceived Ohtani money? First off, they would have to trade with the Braves to get d’Arnaud if his option is picked up. And that is only 8 million. Second, you and everyone else is ASSUMING they are even making Ohtani their number one free agent target. I believe that is narrow thinking. They supposedly have 137 mil or something like that to play with. I think they can sign several very good players who would make them deeper and much harder to beat than one player. Yeah, he hits and pitches. He is very good at both, but he is not invincible and once you hit your 30’s things start to break down. Most players do not last into their late 30’s. Now, maybe just maybe if the Dodgers do sign him and are incredibly lucky, he is a force for his entire contract. Not likely. He is the best player so far this year. There is no guarantee he keeps it up. Four years ago, you could say the same thing about Trout, who was the best player hands down. You guys are trying to simplify the whole thing by saying he is the best, they should do it no matter what. It doesn’t work like that and most of you know it. If, and only if, ownership says break the bank, we want him on our team no matter what, will he get signed by the Dodgers. And the negotiations will be intense.
You skipped right over my key point.
THEY DON’T PAY TOP DOLLAR FOR “VERY GOOD” players. They only seem to pay for the Superstars.
They never had. Friedman intimated they never will.
It’s not just fans who connect Ohtani and the Dodgers. There was a poll of GMs and the Dodgers were the front-runner. There are more informed reporters who open acknowledge the Dodgers are interested in him.
Even with Bauer they hedged their bet and overpaid for a short term deal. Mookie is the one guy they committed money long term for.
“He is one of a kind, I recognize that. If the Dodgers could get him at a reasonable cost…”
So, you admit that he’s a special player, but “one of a kind” and cheap are mutually exclusive.
The real question is if the Dodgers can afford him.
With all the money coming off the books after this season, they can, and still reset the CBT.
He’s a free agent. He’s available. It seems he wants to play on the West Coast. He wants to win. He’s already familiar with SoCal. He apparently is on friendly terms with Mookie. He’d be a quick Uber ride to LAX to take a direct flight back home to Japan when he wants. The Dodgers are the best organization in baseball.
It seems like the big hesitation is “I don’t think any player is worth that much money.”
Again, the Dodgers have financial room to pay for him.
Will it be an overpay? Probably. Will it be a risk? Sure. It’s out of character for the way the Dodgers do things.
We have the opportunity to watch the best player in the world play for the team that we follow. I think the risk is worth it.
SO very glad you are not running the team. We can argue all night long, not going to change anything. You guys want the guy, I am more cautious.
Of course. Only a moron would not want Ohtani on their team 😉
I do not mind if he becomes a Dodger, I just do not want to see it impact them fixing the pitching staff and getting a strong bench. A starting 3rd baseman who actually could hit for average would be nice too.
3 hours until game time and no starting pitcher or roster moves announced yet.
CK activated Gonzalez sent to OKC.
10:10 PM ET
Rockies (45-69)
Dodgers (67-46)
SP Ty Blach L
1-1 4.85 ERA
SP Clayton Kershaw L
10-4 2.55 ERA
Betts RF
Freeman 1B
Rosario 2B
Muncy DH
Taylor LF
Hernandez 3B
Outman CF
Rojas SS
Barnes C
74° Wind 8 mph Out
Flash: Austin Barnes has a 4-game hitting streak.
During that time he is batting .364
We need to bench Will Smith immediately and make Barnes the first string catcher.
Ouch.
Thank god it’s almost time for Dodger baseball, all this Ohtani talk is irrelevant until after this season is over like Matt indicated about 12 hours ago. By the time he decides it will be mid to late January.
It’s funny how people like to silence you when they disagree.
Silly actually!
I think you’ll be surprised at how quickly he signs.
Lots of other signings are going to depend on where he decides to go and I’m betting he’ll make that decision before the winter meetings in early December.
I’ve really taken a liking to Rosario. Seems like a really good guy.
Man, did we put one over on the Guardians by getting them to take Syndergaard. By the way, he beat the Blue Jays tonight. Pitched 6 innings and gave up 1 run. Sometimes change of scenery works in both directions.
so again. Why does Max play against lefties?
They believe this lefty did not throw a lot of sharp, breaking stuff. He no longer plays against all lefties… and then there is the fact that he just BLASTED a HR. Any more questions?
His 8th of the year off of left-handed pitching. They win. 2-1 Max drove in both runs.
If nothing else this post caused discussion. None of us are either wrong or right. Only time will tell which direction the Dodgers go. Max plays against lefty’s because Martinez is still out. There is no other option.
Will Smith
Will Smith could DH. It is still like a day off for him
BY the way, by my count the no to Ohtani group is leading. You pro Ohtani guys need to garner more support.
Have to agree with you Bear. No to Ohtani.
Thanks Ohio. I just think he isn’t worth what he will cost. Picked up 1/2 game on all of the division pretenders.
If he was 26 or 27, I would be all in on him. Or if he would take a 4-5 year contract.
Max Muncy, whom many did not want in the lineup was responsible for all the runs.
Yep, they know it all……….after the fact. Kersh looked great. Yarbough gets the win. Kersh even though he gave up 1 run, he has the lowest ERA among starting pitchers. 2.51. Snell is at 2.61.
Would you direct us specifically to the “many” you speak of.
I ask because “David” was the only one in this comment thread who voiced disapproval of Muncy being in tonight’s lineup –and that itself does not constitute “many.”
I really want to thank you guys for all of the comments. Whenever I see over 100 responses, I know I have touched a nerve somewhere. No matter what, we are all loyal Dodger fans. Mark makes sure there are no trolls here. No matter if we agree on a certain topic or not, we all desire the same thing, a Dodger World Championship. I will not lie, this team has played a lot better than I expected especially with all the injuries to the pitching staff. Outside of losing Lux in spring and a couple of hiccups physically by Martinez, the position players have stayed relatively healthy. I mean they went out and signed Marisnick and no one misses him a bit. I am a little concerned about Deluca. He should have been activated by now and at least be playing at AAA. But I feel pretty good about the turnaround by the team and what is now a 6.5 game lead over the Gnats. Lets hope they keep it going.
JDM staying healthy through the playoffs is my chief concern. I’m not sure his body will hold up. Otherwise, I think this roster–and what’s still at OKC–can provide all the answers for what’s needed to win a WS title this year. A successful return by Buehler and Treinen before the playoffs would be HUGE.
Still saying that Smith should have been the DH. Ok so you can’t argue the result worked out. The first inning DP by Max was a downer.
No to Ohtani. Very good pitching last night.
This team is just fun to watch.
How about that Kid Yarbrough!!
Clayton probably wins Cy Young Award if not for shoulder injury. Friedman screwed up! He should have traded for 2 Yarborough’s! It was said he might be the sneaky good steal of the trade deadline! Am I wrong in worrying about facing lefties in the playoffs? Have been a Chris Taylor fan forever, but watching him at the plate is getting to be so painful! He honestly looks like he’s swinging off a tee. Bat connect with ball , goes a long way. But bat doesn’t connect with ball very often! He needs a change of scenery next season, like Cody! Creeping up on Bravos! Does Bob Melvin survive in San Diego? I doubt it. Old Bear, total agreement on ohtani. 6 years at 50 per year? Maybe. But other wise no way. He might be the “best” player in baseball today, but I’m not sure. He pitches well and he’s a powerful hitter. That’s 2 things he does very well. Freddie might be the best hitter on the planet. He plays outstanding defense. That’s 2 things he does very well. Acunia also an unbelievable talent who is an offensive force as well as defensive stud. 2 for him. Mookie can do it all! Ohtani might play a good defensive outfield, we can’t say for certain. Not trying to say he’s not special, he his. But in overall value over the next 6 years, I want 3 very good players, not 1 ! He’s an injury away from getting some GM fired.