The Bullpen: Change Is Constant

Posted By on July 31, 2023

Over the course of time, the makeup of a baseball team’s bullpen has changed dramatically. Back in the beginning of the game, a pitcher who started a game was expected to finish it. If you look back at pitchers like Cy Young, their complete game totals are dramatically higher than those of pitchers who pitched after the early 1900s. For example, the only true modern-day pitcher who appears in the top 24 is Warren Spahn. Spahn is # 21. His 382 career complete games are 367 behind all-time leader Young’s 749. Number two on the list, Pud Galvin, is 103 back. No one else has more than 600. Unreachable in today’s game. Through the 60’s, pitchers prided themselves on finishing games they started.

Bullpens were made up of pitchers on their way down. Sometimes, as in the case of Grover Cleveland Alexander, they were truly great pitchers who had reached the end of their careers. Old Pete, as he was called, had 436 career complete games, mostly with the Cubs and Phillies. He was one of the best pitchers in the majors prior to WWI. He won 30 games in 1917. He went to war and was a victim of a gas attack. Although he won 27 in his first year back in 1920, after that, his career had a downward trend. He would win 20 again in 1923 (22) and 1927 (21), but his health after the war was always a question. Most felt his problems were from excessive drinking. No doubt caused by traumatic events. But the truth is he also contracted epilepsy from the gas attack, most likely, and that led to seizures that, at the time, most did not understand and mistook as alcoholic fits.

In 1926, Alexander was sent to the Cardinals in June on a waiver claim. At the time he was 3-3 with the Cubs in seven starts. He would pitch in 23 games for the Cardinals, going 9-7 with what was much later credited two saves. He pitched seven games out of the pen. In the World Series against the Yankees, he started game two, winning 6-2 and then winning game six 10-2. He did not expect to be used in game seven, and he was sitting in the bullpen, some say nursing a hangover, this he always denied, and relaxing when Jesse Haines, the Cardinal’s starter, ran into trouble in the 7th inning.

To his surprise, manager Rogers Hornsby had to have him pitch because Haines had developed a blister. Hanging on to a 3-2 lead, he came in with the bases loaded and Tony Lazzeri coming up. He got a 1-1 count on Lazzeri, and on the next pitch, Lazzeri hit a line drive down the left field line just foul. On the next pitch, Alexander struck him out with a fastball on the outside corner. He would pitch two more scoreless innings, and the Cardinals were Champions. He was 39 years old when he did that.

The Dodgers were stymied in their quest for a World Series win a couple of times when the Yankees used Joe Page to shut them down. He recorded a save in both the 47 and 49 World Series. Of course, the save was not a real stat then. The first pure relief pitcher to win a MVP award was Jim Konstanty of the Phillies in 1950. Konstanty had a 16-7 record in 74 games. All of those in relief. He recorded 22 saves. The Phillies edged out the Dodgers for the pennant.

In the 50s, relievers who were mainly relievers started to become younger than older, and some would double as spot starters. The Dodgers’ first true reliever per se was Joe Black. Black was purchased just prior to the 1951 season along with Jim Gilliam from the Baltimore Elite Giants for 11,000 dollars. He went 11-12 at AAA in 1951, starting 20 of the 35 games he pitched in.

He made the team out of spring training in 1952 and pretty much immediately became their closer. He was 15-4 with a 2.15 ERA. He appeared in 56 games, starting two of those. He had one complete game. He finished with 15 saves, pitched 142.1 innings, and gave up only nine homers. He struck out 85 and walked 44. He earned the Rookie of the Year Award and finished 3rd in the MVP vote. He would never come close to those numbers again, and in June of 1955, he was traded to the Reds for Bob Borkowski and cash. He was done after pitching seven games for the Senators in 1957.

His partner in the Dodger pen was Clem Labine. Labine had joined the team in 51. He was a spot starter in his first and second seasons. He started 6 of his 14 games in 51, and he had five complete games and two shutouts. He was 5-1 overall with a 2.20 ERA. More of the same in 52 when he was 8-4 in 25 games, 9 of which he started. He did not record his first save until 1953, when he had 7. Seven of his 37 appearances were starts, and he posted an 11-6 mark with a 2.77 ERA. Clem would stay with the team when they moved west. He had four straight years of double-digit saves, 55-58, and pretty much was strictly a reliever by 54. Perhaps one of his best games came in the 1956 World Series when he made an emergency start in game six and pitched a 10-inning 1-0 shutout to even the World Series. He was traded to Detroit in June of 1960 for Ray Semproch and cash.

As the 60s rolled around, the bullpen became more and more important. The First Dodger star reliever in the 60s was 1959 World Series hero Larry Sherry. He would soon be joined by Ron Perransoski. Sherry won 14 games in 1960. He saved only 7 for a mediocre Dodger team. He appeared in 168 games over a three-year period, 60-62, winning 25, losing 17 and saving 32. By 1963, he was mainly Perranoski’s caddy. Ron had become the Dodgers closer and won 16 while losing three and saving 21. He also blew eight saves, but how many of those games he ended up winning is not on his stat sheet. Perry had the only relief appearance in the World Series that year, pitching in Podres’ game 2 win over the Yankees. Koufax had two complete game wins, and Drysdale had one.

Perranoski would never reach those numbers again as a Dodger and was sent to Minnesota after the 67 season as part of the Zoilo Versailles trade. Jim Brewer came over from the Cubs in 1964 and became the closer in 68. Jim had a 12-year career with LA. He saved 126 during that time and won 61 games. He had four seasons of at least 20 or more saves. In 1969, he blew ten saves. That year, the Dodger pen consisted of Brewer, Mikkelson, Moeller, McBean, Lamb, Purdin, Darwin, and Jack Jenkins. Jim Bunning made nine starts after being acquired in a trade.

One of the more unusual relievers of the time was Hoyt Wilhelm. Wilhelm, famous for his knuckleball, was a reliever from the time he joined the New York Giants in 1952. By 1959 he was doing some starting for the Orioles. He won the ERA title that year and 15 games. He returned to being mostly a reliever in 1961. Hoyt would win 143 games and save 228 in his long career. He spent his last two seasons with the Dodgers going 0-2 with four saves.

Today, bullpens are made up mostly of specialists. You have your closers, usually somebody who throws serious heat. But that is not a pre-requisite. Some have specialized pitches. Mariano Rivera relied on a devastating slider. Jansen had his cutter. Not very often will you see a reliever relying on soft stuff. Long men are not as prevalent as they once were. But you really need someone who can go multiple innings as the game progresses. Openers were made popular by the Rays. This became prevalent in the 2020 shortened season. Pitchers did not have their normal build-up to the season. So many teams opted for bullpen games. This could be done easily because of the expanded rosters.

MLB permanently expanded the rosters to 26 a couple of years ago. No more massive call-ups in September, so the only time your prospects get looked at in the majors is if they are called up due to injury or are one of the two callups in September. Last season, the Dodger bullpen was one of the best. They had some bad outings in the playoffs against the Pads and it cost LA a chance at the World Series. This year, the reverse has happened. They flamed out early and lately have regained some ground. But the cast is continually changing and most likely will continue to do so up until the playoffs.

This article has 162 Comments

  1. Bullpens’ are fickle. Here we are – right up to the wire. AF may or may not be done. It takes two teams (or more) to make a trade, and all of that depends upon how each team values the players involved. You can look at a trade and say, “Well the Dodgers could have did better than that!”

    But you have no clue how the Dodgers or the other team value that player. It may be totally different! We shall soon know…

  2. Flush the last series and get ready for the stretch run.

    Will be interesting to see what happens at the deadline…

  3. Yes the next two days will be interesting. AF said the will be ‘aggressive’! So far we have not seen that as he has been unwilling to let go prospects for two month rentals. So as we go into August we don’t have ANY reliable starting pitchers. And our offense that has been carried by our 30+ year olds (plus Smith) are finally getting bitten by the injury bug. On the plus side-We are in first place, our bullpen has come back and Max showing signs of life. Plus Barnes two game hitting ‘streak’. So if no major deals we then just have to hope Urias, Gonso can turn it around (Plus Kershaw). A losing record in Aug-Sept will mean fighting for wild card spot.

  4. This morning I’m thinking about the rest of the season, weighing the pro and con of adding another solid starter today.

    I have a bad feeling the team we all hate and that has been underperforming for much of the year is starting to wake up and will roll into the playoffs again this year.

    And I have a bad feeling they may, if given the chance, do to us what they did last year, with their superior pitching and of course, their 3 super stars matching our 3 stars.

    If we don’t, for example, pick up Verlander, they would have every pitching match up advantage (maybe not with Clayton), and of course they have the great and scary Josh Hader ready to mop up the 9th inning with an easy 1-2-3. Most great closers do that to us.

    Snell v Clayton
    Musgrove v Urias
    Darvish v Gonsolin
    Wacha (Lugo if injured) v Miller or Lynn

    I know this shows a lack of faith in our team today, but after last year, when we were so much better heading into the playoffs….I’m just trying to add some perspective here. I would love to read your thoughts and rebuttals. I can’t see how this year would be any different should we play these guys again in the playoffs…..except perhaps, maybe adding a proven playoff vet like Verlander, who just might make a difference.

    Thanks,
    TM

    1. Id be more concerned about SF than SD right now.

      But to be honest im not concerned about either. I honestly don’t care too much what we do in July or August. last week everyone was crowning us after 3 solid series.

      Lets play our best baseball in late September into October and let the chips fall where they may. Bottom line Mookie., Freddie, JDM, Clayton, Urias, will have to carry this team to a championship and they absolutely can do that.

    2. Just check the remaining schedules for the NL West. AZ looks to by far have the toughest schedule, I expect they’ll fall back. After them The Dodgers and Giants appear to have the toughest schedule remaining, although not bad. Padres by far have the easiest schedule remaining and with the Dodgers and SF playing 7 out of the last 11 against each other it could give SD an advantage. No one knows how this is going to play out, but the Padres being 8 back right now seems like they are not out of it yet. After a nice road trip we have laid an egg at home. It’s tough to try and hold our lead with so many rookie SP’s. The younger teams are really seeming to beat us up right now.

      1. Like last year, I don’t think Pads will win the division….Wildcard though is very doable. Only 3.5 games out and like you said, the teams ahead of them are probably going to struggle much more with their schedules.

    1. Lol…..you have the perfect name….

      True, it is just baseball, and it’s certainly not a life threatening matter, but when you are sick in bed (just for today I’m sure) and somewhat restless, one needs to keep their minds active to stay relevant and possibly to stay away from more serious disease. But if you are following all of this is a follow up to our discussion regarding to add or not to add more and better pitchers before the deadline. Once today ends, then we play with the cards dealt to us.

  6. One should never make trades out of fear.

    Fear clouds your thinking and results in dope-fiend moves.

    Trades should be made from a position of strength – Not fear!

  7. Currently, JDM, Will Smith, and Mookie are banged up. Losing any of them would be devastating. JDM’s hamstring concerns me the most.

  8. MLB.com named the top trade chip for each team. He is the Dodgers:

    Dodgers: Gavin Stone, RHP
    Under club control through: At least 2029
     
    Los Angeles’ system is loaded with pitching prospects, with five of its Top 10 doing their work on the mound. Bobby Miller, Emmet Sheehan and Michael Grove are pitching at the big league level, while Gavin Stone, Ryan Pepiot and Landon Knack are at Triple-A. Stone is the Dodgers’ No. 4 prospect and No. 48 on MLB Pipeline’s Top 100, so while L.A. would like to hang on to the 24-year-old, he might be a strong trade chip if the Dodgers find the right trade partner.

  9. I am going to be brutally honest here. Today, as this roster is constructed, I have little faith that they can win a championship. Not with the starting pitching they have. The bullpen is going to be totally gassed by the end of August. They get a little break the next three games playing the hapless Oakland, soon to be Las Vegas A’s. Anything less than a sweep is unacceptable. They should clobber these guys. Give them at least a little momentum heading into San Diego. Trading for Verlander guarantees nothing. Frankly, even though he has won 4 of his last 5 decisions, his age scares the crap out of me. He is a breakdown waiting to happen. I would much rather see them get Rodriguez from Detroit or Keller from the Pirates. I hear a ton of talk about Pham and Canha. Neither of those clowns are difference makers. Canha hasn’t shown the power he had in Oakland 4 years ago since he went to the Mets. Pham has worn out his welcome in each city he has played in. And he is no great shakes with a glove. If they trade for a RH hitting outfielder, I prefer Thomas from the Nats. Angels traded for Grichuk and Cron. Rockies throw in the towel. Unless they upgrade the pitching starting wise by tomorrow, just get ready for 24 because they are toast.

    1. Ok I guess if we dont get any pitching the players should just forfeit the rest of the season, give up…

      Cmon man, thats why you PLAY THE GAMES……

      Get to the dance and anything can happen….and has time and time again….

    2. Only Atlanta is clearly better.

      And that doesn’t always translate to postseason wins.

      Don’t be afraid.

        2. I get it too Matt. And the truth is simple. No May, No Buehler until at least September. Kersh might or might not be back next week. The rotation as it stands right now is weak. The bullpen are all past or near their career highs in innings. The offense sputters and they lose. Mark is right, if Mookie, Smith or JD go down for any length of time, they are in serious trouble. Pitching wins championships and I said nothing about throwing in the towel. But they need help in the rotation, they got Lynn, they need more even a blind man could see that. The only rookie I have any faith in is Miller. After the deadline they have 57 games left. Of the 57, 27 if those games are on the road where the Dodgers are weakest. They have a very good home record, 31-20, but they are only 3 games over .500 on the road. They finish the season on the road in SF. 7 of their last 11 games are against the Giants. Verlander is out there, but his age for me at least has to be a problem. I prefer the younger guys. Playing the games is great. You have a chance every night. But you still need the horses to win. This team right now, does not have the horses. Sorry Mark, the Force is wishful thinking. They need action not dreams.

          1. “Unless they upgrade the pitching starting wise by tomorrow, just get ready for 24 because they are toast.”

            Could have fooled me…..

          2. You sit there and tell me you believe in the pitching as it now stands? They need an upgrade and the only way they are getting it is through a trade. Which means, since they no longer have the option to get someone on September first like they used to, if they do not make a trade for a front line pitcher by the deadline tomorrow, all the help they will get will come from within. And right now within is not very reliable.

          3. Kershaw, Urias, Miller. If all 3 bring their A game YES I like our chances…..

            Remember the other team has to bring their A game as well.

            Keep the faith…

          4. That is a HUGE if there Matt. Only Kersh has shown that so far. Miller is in development. He could be a factor down the road. Urias has done zip to give anyone the confidence he can be that guy again. And one more crucial factor. Urias has never been more than a 6 inning guy. He rarely pitches into and gets out of the 7th. Kersh is the only pitcher on the staff besides Lynn who has that kind of pedigree.

    3. To support what you said…..

      The swift beatdown capped off a month that saw Dodgers starters produce a 6.18 ERA, the second-worst in baseball for July. It was the worst month of starting pitching the franchise has seen since moving to Los Angeles and the second-worst since at least 1912, according to MLB researcher Sarah Langs.

          1. More understandable that that 1944 team was horrible. They won 61 games, and their total attendance was 605,905 which was weirdly, third in the NL. And Leo the Lip was the manager. Their best pitcher was 40-year-old Curt Davis at 10-11 3.34, Rube Melon was second at 9-12 3.36. Gregg and Mclish, who was 18, had ERAs of 5.46 and 7.82 respectively. I doubt D-Day had anything to do with how bad they were. Dixie Walker and Augie Galan were their best players.

  10. I’m with Bear, not sure the Dodgers have enough to make it all work. I expect to be disappointed at trade deadline.

    The only game changer would appear to be Justin Verlander, which if it was just the remainder of this season would be fine. But there is another year and the Mets apparently don’t plan to throw in Scherzer money to help make a trade work.

    Yes, he has been pretty good lately, but he’s getting older and could break at any moment. But maybe he’s a different cat, will end up pitching well into his 40s.

    Still, if the Dodgers truly intend to make a big run at Ohtani, would another huge contract be an obstacle?

    Jack Flaherty, he hasn’t been great or even good at times, and Michael Lorenzen might help. There is lefty Eduardo Rodriquez, also a Tiger. They would all be upgrades over what we saw yesterday.

    Bottom line, Urias and Gonsolin have to pitch better and Kershaw must return to health to get the Dodgers into the fall.

    Maybe Lynn’s underlying numbers will play out and he’ll be part of the solution.

    I’m guessing the Dodgers have another move to make. Hoping for the best.

    1. They cannot stand pat at this point. AF has to have another starter on his docket. There is no evidence to support the thesis that Julio and Gonsolin will get back to what they were. They need pitching help period.

      1. Sheesh….I thought today was the deadline to trade. It’s TOMORROW! (Slaps face)

        The brain side of me says…..we aren’t winning anything this year outside of maybe the West, so let’s focus our attention on NEXT year. Translation….don’t add any big name guys with big contracts that you have to assume. Don’t give up key prospects, especially arms.

        Therefore, this off-season ….Go all in on Ohtani….we get a top pitcher and batter in one.

        The heart side of me says…..we are close enough, let’s go all in this year, we still have a chance.

        I think my brain side is wiser. I’m glad about that too.

        1. via GIPHY

          How to embed graphics on this blog continues to befuddle my poor mind. If anyone can amend and fix I would be appreciative.

        2. Happens to the best of us. The deadline was July 31 for a long time. Last year I think it was the second of August because the season started late. One reason they played the Rockies six straight games at home at the end of the year. Back in the day, the deadline was June 15th. But they were able to add players up until September 1st. Freese was a Sept 1 guy. August 1 is now the hard cap day. Waiver claims only after that. And low man on the totem pole gets first shot.

          1. Thanks, Wayne…

            I know they say once you get into the playoffs, it’s a new season and anything can happen. But, but……..(get Ohtani, and then let’s talk….)

            Lol

  12. I say it again: If the Dodgers want to make a serious attempt /run at a WS title they got to find a way to bring in Verlander and Bednar (or the closer of the Guardians who is rumored to be available with the right deal).
    As someone said the rotation needs an ace and the already overworked bullpen another shutdown arm.

    If it needs to be a slight overpay to get those players so be it. Otherwise chances to beat the powerhouse Braves or Rays or Rangers are rather slim.

    Just to see in print what our playoff rotation and pen could look like with those two additions:
    Verlander, clayton, Julio, Buehler (as opener for 3-4 innings)
    Bednar, Phillipps, Ferguson, Graterol, Kelly, Bobby Miller , Gonsolin, Lynn, Vesia
    Should Buehler be no option we still have Sheehan or Almonte to take his place.
    That is an intimadating pitching staff. I would go to war with this group against anybody and be confident we can beat them.

    So to me it is a rather easy approach: Either go big or go away and wait for 24.

    Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. For once Ram, I am in total agreement with you….did you feel that….the earth just trembled in fear. But you hit the nail right on it’s head. Go big, or go home early……..Again.

      1. OldBear48 it was not my impression that we differ on many topics. Yes, some topics we have different views but I am surprised you feel otherwise saying for once you agree with me.
        IMHO you are a very knowledgable baseball guy. I especially enjoy your blogs about former players and a view at the history of the game.
        Keep it up!

        Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!

        1. You can load up all you want, like the Mets did this year, but it is no guarantee that you will win. The Baseball Gods (The Big Dodger in the Sky) may have other ideas.

          It did not used to be such a “crapshoot” in the postseason, but it sure is now.

          1. No one says it is a guarantee. that would be moronic.
            But it will improve your chances. And that is all you can do at the deadline. Improve your chances.

            Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        2. Sometimes we do, and we get into long extended posts. But that is cool. I try to keep history alive. There are a lot of fans out there who know bupkis about Dodger history. That is why I got into the discussion about Orel. I believe there are players who were career Dodgers that have done more for the franchise who should be honored. Orel helped win one title. Gilliam helped win 4.

          1. Orel is a beloved Dodger, did you see the ceremony Saturday night, outstanding.

            He is a Dodger Ambassador.

          2. Orel is popular. Beloved? I think Fernando is way more popular and beloved than Hershiser. No, I did not watch the tribute. I saw his act live. He had two really good years as a Dodger. He helped them win one championship. Gilliam was a career Dodger and a coach who helped them win four. I was there when they inducted Garvey. So, I know it is all peaches and cream and let’s fete our hero. Orel was good, he wasn’t great. He pitched 5 more years after he left LA and got to another two World Series with the Indians. His 88 season was a very good one. But I still think there are former Dodgers more deserving of the honor. That is my opinion. I love the history of the team. And guys like Erskine and Giliam are a huge part of that. More than Orel.

          3. Do yourself a favor and watch the Orel tribute/cermony, MC’ed by our own Joe Davis. Very well done. And yes he is a Beloved Dodger.

      2. This is how I feel as well, but why make the moves we already did if you’re not going all in right now, it just doesn’t make sense to me. It’s possible The Dodgers might not have expected to be in this position if they really planned to reset payroll this year and now have to decide if it’s worth it to try to go big now or just see what happens with the team as put together. Maybe they are seeking moves that help them beyond this season and don’t want to pay for rentals.

        1. I am not saying they will not do anything, but it’s going to depend upon the cost.

          Especially the long-term cost in players.

          1. Absolutely. The long term cost has to be considered.
            Therefore I would not trade Bobby Miller, cartaya, Vargas, Sheehan, Joendry Vargas, Josue dePaula.
            Everybody else I principally would consider in trades.

            Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      3. I live in Atlanta….if my Dodgers can’t win it, which seems likely, then Go Braves Go. I love the mood, the parade, and the joy around here after the last win. I’m sure it will be just as much fun a second time.

    2. PeeWee’s playhouse was some amazing stuff.

      I think Tim Burton got his start there.

      He was, by all accounts, a strange person.

      1. Didnt he get in trouble for doing something in a Movie Theater???

        RIP though. 70 geez…

          2. Actually after a few years he had a Broadway show and did get a few more parts. The Broadway show is actually pretty successful.
            Cheers

  14. I say they go After Rodriguez from the tigers to add to the starting rotation and sign him for next year too. That would mean rotation of Kershaw Urias Rodriguez Lynn Miller Shehan and Gonsolin to the bullpen. They also need to get Bednar from the Pirates so then you have ethe three headed monster down there in the bullpen. And they last thing to trade for Lane Thomas from the nationals the dodgers seem to always trade with them and they like are prospects and we got prospects he is young can play LF or RF and has the fire of a kid I remember that played right field that be when J.D. Drew was out there. That would put Thomas in left play him every day outman and heyward centerfield and kikie mookie rightfield with Peralta and infielders you have Muncy Rojas Freeman Rosario Hernandez and I guess Taylor unless they trade him to nationals. Reason I say Rodrigues I don’t qnat to get Verlander and then in the playoffs he has forearm tightness like Sherzier did and then we are screwed so I say go for the younger guy Rodriguez or Loreszon one of the tigers pitchers there both younger vets rather then go with Miller and Shehan in playoffs.

    1. Good ideas Bradley. Verlander is a gamble for sure. I like Thomas, but playing someone every day other than Mookie and Freeman is not the way Roberts does things. He plays matchups. You play Mookie at second, Rosario is not going to play much since Roberts says he is going to get time at second. Also unless a player significantly improves the team, I do not see them making a trade. The only two starting pitcher who do that are Rodriguez and Verlander. Getting Verlander is very complicated at this point and the main sticking point for any team pursuing him is his vesting option for 25. If he hits 140 innings next season, the choice to exercise the option is purely his. And 35 million for a 42-year-old pitcher is a huge risk.

      1. Yes, Verlander is a risk. But life is risky to begin with and there is a reason for the saying “high risk, high reward”.
        Dodgers have shown to take on risks when they signed Bauer and then they proved they have no problem with sacrificing money when they released him.
        The 25 vesting option IMHO is not a huge thing. If he pitches 140 innings in 24 it would prove two things: He is healthy and effective.
        And as we have seen with Buehler or May even younger guys can go down every day. There is no guarantee either way.
        IMOH Verlander is a calculated risk the Dodgers should take.

        Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        1. In your eyes it is not a huge risk. It is proving to be otherwise for the teams making the move. All reports have both the Astros and the Dodgers not liking that clause.

          1. I do not like the clause too but that other teams are using it as a bargain strategy to get a better deal should be clear too

            Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    2. Rodriquez is a tricky trade option. His contract has an opt out at the end of the year. If he pitches well down the stretch he can opt out. If he stinks up the joint he’s here three years after this year. Even with that I would consider trading for him and their closer Lange. I don’t think the Dodgers are considering Lane Thomas, I wish he was on their radar but I think the Nats will want too much for him.

  15. When are our outfielders going to figure out that trying to throw out runners at home early in the game is a dumbshit idea? You can’t let the hitter get to 2nd on the throw home.
    How many guys are thrown out at home? Not many. Outman and Hayward, who should know better, just let hitters get in scoring position.
    Bradley talks about more aggressive leadership. Back in my day, that stuff got you fined. Doc just seems to sit back and watch that shit happen. No web gems. Throw the baseball to 2nd base.
    It’s bad baseball.I’m with Matt. Play better in Sept and Oct and see where the chips fall.
    Get Kike in the outfield. When Mookie gets back put him at 2nd and platoon the outfield corners and leave Outman in center.
    Who can help me understand why Grove is so shitty? Strikes out 10, so he has swing and miss stuff. But he gave up 10 hits and 8 runs. Is it location? He puzzles me.
    Good post Bear on the history of relief pitchers. Good read.

      1. Grove is the prototypical trade chip. Lots of talent, already with some success in MLB, proven he can get big league hitters out but still a little raw.
        Might throw him in a trade for Verlander or Bednar to outbid other suitors.

        Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  16. Who can help me understand why Grove is so shitty? Strikes out 10, so he has swing and miss stuff. But he gave up 10 hits and 8 runs. Is it location?

    ADHD

  17. Saw this quote from Syndergaard yesterday;

    “For the last two years I’ve had a lot of cooks in the kitchen, a lot of people thinking they can come out and fix me,” said Syndergaard, who has pitched for four teams in the three years. “Some of them may have been right. Some of them were right, but the translation wasn’t getting to me.

    I just think (I should) go out there and not really listen to what people think I should and should not be doing, but just do what feels good and natural to me. I feel some people are trying to get me to do certain things that aren’t characteristic to how I used to pitch.”

    Can’t blame the Dodgers for not fixing someone who doesn’t seem to want to realize they need to change. Even more absurd when he could look at Kershaw and see that one can be quite successful if they’re willing to change as needed.

    2. Translation:

      Nobody told me what I wanted to hear, so I am just going to do it my way.

      Who knows? Maybe that will work… or not!

    3. That explains a lot. How can a pitcher whose velocity had gone from 98 to 91 (with a huge loss of movement) believe he doesn’t have to make major changes to his approach?

      He was once an action hero who could bust into a building with an M60 in each hand and take on an army by himself. Today, he’s a scrawny kid with a BB gun and slingshot. Can’t go taking on armies by himself anymore. But he still thinks he can.

      He’s toast

    4. Noah, was uncoachable. He wasn’t seeking a fix. He was seeking the Fountain of Youth.
      Some guys have a hard time coming to grips when they’re done. He never had the command to pitch with lower velocity. What’s the Seger song, Glory Days?

  18. Mitch White was DFA’d after Jays got Jordan Hicks. According to MLB’s web site, the Buzz about Verlander being traded to the Dodgers has grown louder, but no deal in sight yet. Mets also engaged about Verlander with several other teams.

    1. Stone for Verlander would be a good beginning in talks with the Mets.

      White is yet another prove prospects are just that. Prospects.

      Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        1. That is what went threw my mind too.
          Good kid and could be a sericeable bullpen piece next year. Taking the long man job Bickford had
          White had his best moments for us when he was the long man.

          Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    2. I’m thinking this recent “buzz” about a Verlander/Dodgers trade getting “louder” could be generated by the Mets as a ploy to gain more leverage with other teams in their talks for the future HOF.

    1. THIS!

      Stop complaining and being outraged and start enjoying things you believe in and people who share those beliefs.

    2. More gaslighting. The Dodgers had many pride nights without controversy or protests. It was inviting and giving an award to a group that mocks Catholics that was the issue.

      As an atheist I have no issue with the Dodgers having a Christian faith night. As long as it’s respectful to those who don’t agree and does not bring in political controversy to the ballpark.

      The nuance here is very straight forward to me. Nobody protested yesterday because the event was tasteful and did not mock or show disrespect to anybody. As simple as that. Had they given an award to some anti LGBT preacher, that would have been different. And I would have spoken out against it.

      Kersh made his point in the best way possible. By example.

      1. I agree. I am not religious by any stretch of the imagination and that is simply because of my life experiences. Kersh made his point and his teammates who share his beliefs were there with him.

        1. “LOL.

          It was more tasteful than a PA announcement?

          Always! Always the same response.

          Jayne wrote four paragraphs of what I thought was a well reasoned argument, and literally all you have is three letter acronym to simply laugh at him?

          There is NEVER any attempt at anything resembling a good faith discussion. It is all derision, condescension, snark, gaslighting all the time.

          1. Why play an ace when a ten will do?

            I didn’t find it well-reasoned, nor really an argument. It was faulty at a core, all the Sisters got was a PA announcement and a pre-game ceremony. How is that more or less tasteful than the nice event the other night?

        2. “It was just a PA announcement”

          Well that makes everything ok then.

          The miraculous absolution offered by a large speaker system. Maybe the Dodgers should say some nice things about Vladimir Putin, North Korea or the KKK. They just better make sure it’s only over the PA system, however. Because otherwise, they might offend somebody.

          1. Love it!

            Patch tried to compare this Sisters group to the KKK, and now Jayne does too! And includes known charitable entities Putin and North Korea.

            Strawmen everywhere.

            The better analogue, TO ME, is Kyle Duncan visiting Stanford Law.

            A circuit judge being invited by a Law School should be a no-brainer. BUT! Duncan has written opinions that contain terms and decisions that don’t sit well with the loony left of Stanford law’s student base. SO! Based on what he has done in the past, they protested. And screamed. And refused to let those interested in Duncan and his POV enjoy his visit.

            In this case, you have a charitable institution. THey’ve done some stuff in the past that the loony right of Dodger fans didn’t enjoy. So, they protested. They screamed. They tried to refuse to let those interested in the Sisters’s POV to enjoy the PA announcement and Pride Night.

            There’s no difference or solution for the margin left or margin right. They are both bonkers. Ignore them.

  20. The Dodgers had a bad series. No question. But the negativity here surprises me. Barring any major injuries to the core of our lineup, I think we’re in good shape. We certainly need Kersh back and Urias to get back to form (I believe he will).

    I hear people talking like we have no chance in the playoffs because of matchups. We had better matchups against the Padres last year and lost the series 3-1. We had better matchups against the Braves in 2021 and lost the NLCS (despite having 18 more wins in the regular season). We had vastly better matchups than the Nationals in 2019 and they knocked us out as well. The Phillies didn’t have better matchups than almost anybody last year and they made the WS.

    I’m not saying matchups don’t matter. But in the modern playoff system they are no guarantee of anything. It’s about who gets hot at the right time. That’s always been true, to an extent. But it’s even more so now.

    One of the most exciting WS in my lifetime was 1991. Twins won in 7. But there were some incredible games and incredible performances. The Braves would have been swept in 4 games if not for the a guy nicknamed “Dirt”. He hit .230 in the regular season. But lead the team in hits, OBP and OPS in the series. He had two walk off hits in the series. Now the Braves didn’t win it all. But it was one guy getting hot at the right time that kept them in it to the last out in game 7.

    I’m not writing anything off. Dodgers have the second best record in the NL and people are talking like we Chavez Ravine is inhabited by a bunch of scrubs.

    Let’s get to the playoffs and see where the dice fall. Another starter would be nice. But it wouldn’t guarantee anything.

    https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/mark-lemke-1991-world-series/1dgt5fwyh8j1n1ex0whx2i7umr

  21. The dodgers have are known for working counts, driving up pitch counts, being selective. Some teams (like the reds) go up to the plate ready to hit! We sometimes watch too many pitches! Dodgers are putting all their eggs into the knock it out of the ballpark basket. Hated losing 2 out of 3 but couldn’t help but be impressed with Cincinnati and their aggressive offense this weekend! No Mookie hurts , but after Freddie where was the fire? Max 2 homers Saturday but little else. Will might be wearing down some, but you can’t rest him more with Barnes as backup. Rojas is giving them nada at the plate. Outman has been playing really well, how is he going to be rewarded? PLATOOING! Doc said probably lose some playing time with the acquisition of Kiki. Fair? Nope. But that’s Roberts! What would it take to get Lane Thomas Mark? Sure would be nice to have a regular lineup from time to time. I’ve said it before, think Cody misses all that platooning? Anyone heard how long Will might be out? If a roster move needs to be made bring Hunter up and start him immediately! Can’t be any worse than AB! Lastly, not all hitters can lead off. I think it’s a disservice to Peralta to do that. Having a pretty good year down around 6 or 7 spot. If Mookie is out much long put Outman there. But knowing Doc it’ll be Kiki!

    1. Lane Thomas is a lefty killer –

      He is hitting .251 against RHP, but .362 with a 1.046 OPS against LHP. He would be a perfect platoon partner with Heyward… moving Mookie to the IF, but he would cost a lot: Someone like Pepiot and Cartaya.

  22. Old Bear, did you hear about Civale’s trade from Cleveland to the Tampa Bays Rays?
    According to reports, the latter return to a first baseman (perhaps highly valued). Could Civale have been considered by the Dodgers? I see that all the teams ask too much of Dodgers in any negotiation rumor, while in the changes made so far, the players received are far from spectacular.
    If it was available I would like Kirby from Seattle or Singer from KC, but without emptying the farm.
    It is also said that the White Sox opened up to trading Cease and Robert, in that case it would be more aggressive. (but it’s just me). What do you think?

    1. Heard about it a little while ago. The player was the top player in TB’s system and it was a one for one. Trades depend on who the team trading values the most.

    2. I wonder if the Dodgers offered Busch for Civale….
      On the other hand, David Vassegh was suggesting that JDM’s injury may keep him out for a while. Perhaps Busch should be called up to DH.
      On the radio Vassegh was suggestinhat Dodgers were just trying to drive Verlander’s price up and may be more serious about the Pirates’ Mitch Keller. Rumor is that Pirates tried to extend him but Keller wasn’t interested. So they may try to maximize their return by dealing him now.
      Keller would be nice…

  23. I like the idea of the dodgers looking at the pirates and trading with them they have three players the dodgers could use this year in Bedhar as a closer Keller as a starter and Hayes as a third baseman you tell me the pirates wouldn’t take taylor pepiot stone and Busch or Vargas and maybe cataya for those three players that could help the team this year. Is it improving the team or wining a world series.??? If winning a world series then you go get Verlander bring back Bellinger and with that you get Stroman and keep the players you have and trace prospects and go for the world champs. If improving the team then trade with pirates and improve your 40 man roster because theres nothing down on the farm that will get you a world series so you have to trade for it.

  24. Kershaw
    Urias
    Keller
    Lynn
    Miller

    Verlander
    Kershaw
    Urias
    Lynn
    Miller

    Kershaw
    Rodriguez
    Urias
    Lynn
    Miller

    Which starting five do you like going down the stretch A, B, C, with Sheehan and Gosolin as the sixth picture until playoff start then they go to the bullpen with kelly Grateol furgeson Bednar Phillips.

    1. Trades do not happen in a vacuum! I would rather not trade Busch, Vargas, Cartaya, and Pepiot UNLESS I am getting back a generational talent who can play with the Dodgers for 3-5 years.

      Besides, that is not nearly enough for the Pirates. You are trading four prospects for three major leaguers. They are not that crazy!

  25. I agree about not using Peralta leadoff. “Luckily’ he didn’t get on base. I don’t want him up there trying to steal second or going from first to third on a Freddie hit

  26. Chickenshit M’s traded their closer.

    Don’t these teams realize WC3 is out there for the taking?

    YOLO

  27. From MLBTradeRumors:

    “ESPN’s Alden Gonzalez expanded on the Dodgers’ reported interest with some specifics on negotiations between the sides.

    Per Gonzalez, a deal between the sides is “unlikely” given the complicating factor of Verlander’s 2025 vesting option, which would convert to a player option if he pitches at least 140 innings in 2024. That being said, Gonzalez notes that the Mets were willing to pay down the majority of the money Scherzer was owed in order to extract a top prospect in the former of infielder Luisangel Acuna from the Rangers. Given the Mets’ dearth of top pitching prospects and the access LA enjoys, Gonzalez indicates that the likeliest path toward a Verlander deal would be the Dodgers putting together a prospect package of young pitchers that entices the Mets to pay down a significant portion of his salary.

    Such a package would certainly be feasible for the Dodgers to put together, if they so chose. Five of the club’s top ten prospects are pitchers, per MLB Pipeline, and youngsters like Emmet Sheehan, Gavin Stone, and Ryan Pepiot are either already in or approaching the majors. That list also doesn’t include young hurler Bobby Miller, who was the club’s top pitching prospect before he became a key cog in the 2023 club’s rotation. While the Dodgers surely wouldn’t consider moving Miller, dealing from the aforementioned trio of prospects could be a reasonable course of action for the Dodgers, perhaps paired with a lower-level arm like Nick Frasso or Landon Knack.“

    1. So, he is saying, “Pick one of Sheehan, Stone, and Pepiot and one of Frasso, Knack and Ryan.”

      I would do that for Verlander IF cohen pays down the contracts as much as he did Scherzers.

  28. When Scherzer or Turner were acquired? Or even when Rich Hill or Darvish were, was it totally out of the blue or was there a trail of information in the days leading up?

    I can’t remember, but I thought it was out of the blue (toh).

      2. As I recall it, everyone knew Scherzer was in play–just a rental. The Trea part was the shocker.
        I think there was buzz about Darvish, but don’t recall anything about Hill.
        Everybody knew the Dodgers were targeting Machado after Seager went down with injury.

  29. I think some people get the wrong impression about what I feel about Hershiser. When he was a Dodger pitcher, I liked the guy. He was Tommy’s boy. ” The Bulldog” He had a very good year in 1985 when he went 19-3 and had a 2.06 ERA. He was then a .500 pitcher the next two seasons and in 88. he had his career year. He was like Bumgarner was for the Giants when they won. He was the stopper. He had a great playoff and World Series run and the underdog Dodgers won it all. He never came close to being that pitcher again in a Dodger uniform. Despite all the accolades thrown the guys way, he was just a shade better than average the rest of his career. Basically, the same thing happened to Fernando. A few outstanding years and then borderline just ok. Hershiser won 20 once in his career when winning games was a thing. Now, wins are not as important. Fernando, the same thing, but he won an ROY and Cy Young in the same season. Nobody has done that before or since. My own opinion is that ownership now has basically forgotten the teams’ roots. Players who played for LA get more attention than the Brooklyn guys. To me, that is wrong. Players who were career Dodgers should get recognition. Especially a guy like Gilliam. Member of four World Series winners. Twice came out of retirement to help the Dodgers win pennants, 65,66. A beloved coach and mentor to many Dodger rookies. Yes, they retired Gilliams number, and did the same for Fernando this year. But Fernando got into the Legends of Dodger baseball, and entirely different honor that in my mind, should be given to Gilliam too. And he should have been so honored before Hershiser. Jim is not around of course to receive such an honor. But there are those of us who saw this guy play day in and day out being the least selfish Dodger of them all. Sacrificing his own stats for the good of the team just to help them win. Orel is who he is. He did it once. Gilliam is as deserving as he is if not more.

  31. 1. Syndergaard’s comments are not surprising. He seemed to want some team to sprinkle him with pixie dust and restore his 98 mph fastball and nasty slider. Understandably, he seemed to have a difficult time embracing the transition to pitching with average stuff.
    2. Agree completely with Phil on the Dodger’s outfielders tendency to overthrow cut off men in a futile attempt to throw out runners at home. There is no excuse for it. Bad baseball. Those kind of plays get you beat in close post season games.
    3. It is far too simplistic to frame the trade deadline as “go for it or go home”. There is always the balance between the short term and the long term. I am fine if they don’t acquire Verlander. The option year at 35 million would scare me off. Verlander at 42 earning 35 million in two years is not a great bet, in my mind. The Mets also evidently expect a larger prospect haul than they got for Scherzer. There is a reason reports are that no one is in serious talks with the Mets for Verlander. I think the Mets are setting the price for Verlander in hopes that someone reaches for him.
    4. There are no guarantees in any acquisition at deadline. Dodgers, as presently constituted, with Kershaw returning will be the favorites to win the West and finish with the second best record in National League. Not a guarantee that they will but certainly reasonable. They would avoid Atlanta until NLDS and have homefield for first round in what has been termed a “gap year”. I would take my chances with that.

  32. Purely hypothetical from the Dodgers Digest Discord. Would you rather:

    • Dodgers win the 2023 World Series and see Shohei Ohtani sign with the Giants this winter

    • LA doesn’t win and signs Ohtani this winter. Assume at least 10 years & record-breaking money (total and AAV)

    I went with the second one. I am in the minority.

    1. There are rumors of $60 Million a year for ten years. If so, the Dodgers will not be high bidders!

    2. I would absolutely prefer the first option with a 2023 world series title. Ohtani has not taken the Angels to the playoffs once in his 5 years, and he has already had one arm injury. If he went to the Giants, the Dodgers could still win more titles.

  33. Lastest rumor, the Dodgers are pushing for one of either Michael Lorenzen or Eduardo Rodríguez.

      2. Mark, been getting an error message when I try to just post something. Do not get one when I do a reply. Also cannot log onto the dashboard. Error message then too.

  36. JUST A HEADS UP:

    We are having some issues with the “backend’ of the website. We are trying to fix it, but if we go away, rest assured we will be back.

    Don’t know yet what is going on….

  37. Eduardo Rodriguez Lane Thomas and David Bedhar that who the dodgers will get. And then see if they can beat the Braves.

    1. I have no clue what you are talking about, but he is 26 years old. He played in the Minors in 2018, 2019, and 2023.

      Stats: 159 IP/111 H/232 K/44 BB/.193 BA/0.97 WHIP/2.03 ERA

      OK, You have my attention.

  40. For fairness, I dont think trading a guy, paying his salary, and getting back a prospect is good for the sport.

    1. Probably isn’t, but in the Mets case, it is the only way they unload even part of that contract. Watching MLB Network tonight, Amsinger and Plesac got into a tiff over where Ohtani will end up. Amsinger kept saying he would end up with the Giants if the Angels do not keep him and his contract could reach 10/800. No way LA would pay that. Plesac thinks if the Angels make the playoffs, and Ohtani gets to perform on a national stage that he will give the Angels a hometown discount and not take the biggest deal. I call that, wishful thinking. The players union will push him to take the largest contract he can get.

  41. Syndergaard went 5.1 Innings and gave up 1 ER. He allowed 2 BB and struck out no one.

    1. Knocked out of the game by a batted ball in the 6th. His relief gave up a run and then the lead on a homer by guess who, Alvarez.

      1. Change of scenery might do him good. He is probably moping because the Cubs did not extend him. Dodgers options for a starter getting pretty thin.

  45. Vassegh says Mitch Keller more likely than Jv.

    I prolly like Keller better. Cheaper and controlled until ‘25 I think

    1. I heard that too. Hope Vassegh is right, but I fear he is, like me, prone to wishful thinking.
      Vassegh also suggested that JDM’s injury could push him to the IL which would be another reason to get Pham or another bat.
      Angels did well to get Grichuk and Cron. Grichuck homered and Cron has an RBI single as the Halos beat the beastly Braves today.

  46. I think we are targeting a starting pitcher.

    Might come down to the wire.

    But that’s the next play.

  48. The LAT’s Jack Harris mentions Eduardo Rodriguez as Plan B if the Dodgers don’t land Verlander. No mention of Mitch Keller at all.

  49. Here is a list of Rule 5 available Dodgers prospects:

    Landon Knack
    · Nick Frasso
    · Kyle Hurt
    · Yeiner Fernandez
    · Kendall Williams
    · Edgardo Henriquez
    · Hunter Feduccia
    · Devin Mann
    · José Ramos
    · Alec Gamboa
    · Gus Varland
    · Carlos Duran

    Assuming the Dodgers will not keep Kike, Rosario, Lynn and their expiring contracts around for next season that gives us three open spots on the 40 men roster to protect 3 guys out of the group above.
    Frasso and Knack probably are no brainers to protect. That leaves one open spot.

    IMHO it would be better to use some of those guys in a trade package or two to get some help for the stretch run.
    Better to overpay a little by including some of the above mentioned prospects than to lose them for nothing.

    Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!

  50. Dodgers picked up a half game on both the Padres and the Giants who both lost in extra innings. Rockies game started at 9 pm Colorado time, a 2-hour rain delay. Padres blew a chance to win the game when they loaded the bases with no outs and failed to score. Rockies got a gift in the bottom of the inning when Machado dropped the ball on a tag play. After the bases were loaded, they got a force play at the plate when a ball was hit back to the pitcher. Next batter, McMahon, hit a sac fly to left and the Rockies won. Fun Fact. Padres are 0-10 in extra innings. Chances of Verlander coming to LA are very slim. He prefers going back to Houston.

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