Hello, baseball fans and welcome to the 1890 edition of your Brooklyn Bridegrooms. Coming off of a very successful 1889 campaign where they won 93 games under Bill McGunnigle to lead the American Association. The team moves out of the American Association to the newly formed National League of Professional Baseball Clubs.
The Brooklyn team will be playing this season in Washington Park II. This is the second season the team will have games here and the first season they will play the entire schedule in this park. We Brooklynites have every reason to be proud of our boys.
The offense is led by 1st baseman, Dave Foutz, and outfielders Oyster Burns and Darby O’Brien. O’Brien and Burns have shown considerable skill with the bat, and Foutz is a veteran and still very skilled batsman. Adonis Terry, who doubles as a hurler for the team is the 3rd outfielder.
2nd base is manned by Hub Collins. He is steady at the bat and is skilled on defense. SS is manned by Germany Smith. Smith is not very consistent at the bat and is equally inept in the field. 3B is handled by 31 yr old George Pinkney. Pinkney is a skilled fielder and also very consistent with the bat.
Receiving the balls are C, Tom Daly, Doc Bushong, George Stallings and last years starter, Bob Clark. Daly because of his youth will get the bulk of the receiving duties. Spare outfielders are Patsy Donovan, and Pop Corkhill.
Our hurlers are a talented lot. Starting with Tom Lovett, then Adonis Terry and Bob Carruthers. Those chaps are backed up by Lady Baldwin, Dave Hughes and Dave Foutz. The Brooklynites hope to make a fine showing in their first season in the new league. And erase the taste of losing in the postseason to the cross-town rival Giants.
I thought it would be fun to go back to the Dodgers first season in the NL and try and introduce the team the way I thought the papers of the day might do it. Not historically accurate by any means, but fun none the less.
For the record, the Bridegrooms finished 1st in 1890. Winning the pennant in the NL’s inaugural season. They had a record of 86-43 beating the 2nd place Chicago Colts by 6.5 games. The Colts won 83, but due to rainouts and other factors, they lost 53. Playing 7 more games than the Bridegrooms. That added 3.5 games to the lead.
The Giants finished 24 games back in 6th place. The NL that year was made up of teams from Cleveland, Chicago, Brooklyn, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Boston, and Cincinnati. Cleveland would later move to the AL and be replaced by a team from St. Louis. Brooklyn would play a 7 game post-season series against the American Associations Louisville Colonels which would end up 3-3-1.
Brooklyn’s leading hitter in 1890 was Darby O’Brien who posted a .314 mark. He stole 38 bases which was 4th on the team. Collins stole 85 and Foutz and Pinkney were over 40. Burns led the team with 13 HR’s and was the only player to drive in 100 with a 128 mark. No other hitter managed double-figure HR’s, but Foutz drove in 98, just missing the century mark. 3 batters hit over .300. Foutz, Pinkney and O’Brien.
The pitchers were very good with Lovett winning 30, Terry 26, and Carruthers 23. They scored 884 runs and allowed only 620. All of that on 43 HR’s which was 2nd in the league. They stole 349 bases to lead the league. 6 of those were by pitchers. It was a pretty good showing in their first year in the NL. They had begun the journey which would eventually lead to Ebbets Field and then Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles.
I am one who thinks history and your roots are very important. The Bridegrooms began the NL history of the present-day Dodgers, although the uniforms and the names have changed, it is still part of the team’s history. The winning started then. There would be some great seasons, some not so great, some heartbreaking.
There would be times they were alternately loved, despised, laughed at and missed. Going to those games would have been for most of us, a foreign land. People dressed up wearing hats suits and ties. Concessions were nothing like they are today. I am not sure when, but the hot dog had not even been introduced to the game yet. 50 cents would get you a box seat. Gambling on games was the norm. Fights would break out in the stands, and sometimes spill onto the field.
It was a whole other ball game as they say. But you have to love the names. Oyster Burns, Lady Baldwin, Patsy, how many guys do you know today named Patsy or Lady? I think one of my favorites is Adonis Terry. Terry’s WAR that season works out to 6.2. He was the Ohtani of his time. He did not look like what one might imagine Adonis did look like, but he was not a bad-looking fella.
And they did all that for 136 total games with 17 players. Those pitchers threw in excess of 300 innings each. Just the starting three. The reserves pitched a total of 103 innings. Period. Won’t happen in today’s game. One other note, almost all of the players were purchased from other teams. There was no minor league system as we know it today. Hope you enjoyed your trip to 1890.
Fun read. Thanks, Bear.
U R welcome.
Always thought Bridegrooms was a funny name. I assume all of these players worked other jobs during the off-season. By chance, do you know what they were paid back then.
I looked up the salary leaders in the 1890’s and before. In 1890 the highest paid player was Hardy Richardson who made 4,000 $ that season. Salary’s varied a lot and the top player in 1892 made 2800. There is no data for several of the seasons leading up to 1904 when Joe McGinnity of the Giants was paid 5000$. They all had off season jobs usually. They were nicknamed the Bridegrooms because so many members of the 1889 team got married.
Wow Bear. You must have put a lot of nickels in the way back machine for this article! A fun read. Hardly the same game back then, but without it we wouldn’t have today’s game. I appreciate your efforts and time with this article.
Sad to see Corey leave LA. It’s, obviously, all about the money with him. Why else would he go to a pathetic team such as the Rangers. These teams never learn. Spending tons of money on players usually doesn’t lead to success or a championship. I’m sure in time Corey will regret his decision and will eventually request a trade. The money Texas has spent already in FA is ridiculous. But, not my money.
With Scherzer, it was surprising to see him get the money he received. With a frustrated owner in Steve Cohen, he just went bat shit crazy after losing out on some FA pitchers recently. To pay $130M for three years for a soon to be 38 year old is nuts. But, for Cohen it’s damn near a rounding error. I think the Mets still have a long way to go to compete for a World Series title. Again, not my money.
I hope Kershaw decides to retire as a Dodger. I think his recent injury history is too risky for any type of contract. The platelet procedure he has considered has rarely been successful. With all the money Texas is spending let them add to their lunacy and sign Kershaw. Kershaw got his legacy contract with his last extension of 3/$93M which he vastly underperformed. It’s time to move on.
With insane and irrational FA environment I think AF is taking the right approach and letting other, mostly weak teams, spend their wallets out. He will probably wait for the CBA to be resolved before consider signing anymore free agents or make any trades. Except for last year, he’s been a bargain hunter for MLB talent or sly in his acquiring prospects. Let’s hope the CBA gets resolved soon.
Carry on.
I’m with you here. AF deviated from his normal process by spending big last year to be “pigs” coming off a WS win. If you’re going to go all in, that was the time to do it. Go dynasty or go home.
The stars did not align.
So, I’m ok with AF going back to his normal MO – player development, finding value, building a sustainable farm system and cultivating a winning organizational culture. I would not be surprised if the Dodgers try to get under the CBT (whatever that turns out to be) to reset the penalty.
AF is a methodical investor and organization builder. He has a process that’s worked. Cohen is impulsive and reactive. The Mets primary need wasn’t pitching. They were 27th in runs scored last year.
Marcus Semien is another SS, and a bat first/mediocre defender like Seager. The Rangers actually have a pretty good farm system, but their pitching is still a mess, and the dropoff in offense after Seager/Semien is pretty steep. The Rangers have about 4-5 years of Seager being good until he starts to decline offensively (he’s already slipped defensively), so they have to put it all together in that window, and in a pretty tough division. Seager will very likely spend the rest of his career on a middling team rather than a perennial WS contender. Hope that extra 75 million is worth it, Cory.
Alex, I will take “where should I go” for 75mil.
Semien won the gold glove at 2b last year. He has clearly worked hard on his defense. He’s not a mediocre defender like Seager.
It was fun. There is actually a lot of info on those years, but little to none about the players themselves. I just love that name, Oyster Burns. They don’t make em like that anymore.
Dodgers: Corey Seager Reportedly Turned Down Massive Contract Extension Last Spring
by Eric Eulau
After seven years with the Dodgers, Corey Seager is trading Dodger blue for a whole lot of green. A big, Texas-sized pile of green. Seager agreed to a 10-year, $325 million deal with the Texas Rangers on Wednesday, leaving LA in his rearview mirror.
In the wake of Seager’s signing with Texas, AM570’s David Vassegh revealed a bit of inside information he had been holding on to for quite some time. It seems that Seager turned down an eight year, $250 million contract extension from the Dodgers before the 2021 season began.
If true then f$&k him. Tell me please, what in the hell can you not do with $250 million? Is there any loyalty to an organization that drafts you, assists in your development so you can have the big payday, to the fans who buy your jersey’s, to the kids who adore you? It’s all about the money I get it, but when you’re in the $250-350 million stratosphere with the team that got you there you would think there might be some loyalty
I know he had to say the perfunctory answer during his end of season presser, but if he turned down $250 million from the Dodgers before the start of the 2021 season, he knew he wasn’t coming back. Build around Mookie, Walker, Urias, Lux, Smith, hope Bellinger returns to superstar status and wait for AF to pull a rabbit out of his hat….Freeman or Bryant.
I love Corey, have his jersey and wanted him to be a lifetime Dodger, but as someone pointed out yesterday we will now see a very athletic SS who can go deep in the hole, who can cover up the middle, who can legitimately dive for a ball and who won’t use a BS backhand on a lazy ground ball rather than that weak backhand stuff Corey always went to including during the NLCS that ultimately decided a game.
That, and I don’t think Cory’s approach to hitting really fit with the Dodgers philosophy. He wasn’t Puig level defiant, but his first pitch swing approach – although it worked for him – tended to get exposed during the playoffs, especially 2019 when he was not very good.
And if you think he was a lazy defender during his contract year, now imagine how willing he will be to dive for a grounder when he’s guaranteed 325 mil. He’ll be the Corbin Bernson character in Major League.
https://youtu.be/4Sqfse3loJw
Quite disappointed by that mercantile position of today’s players, 0% loyalty to the organization that formed you, you risk going to a mediocre organization instead of staying in one of the best organizations in baseball that gives you a bonus, for its history, fan base and especially when you know that you are a childhood idol. They lack to understand that in life, not everything is money, there are many things that are worth sacrificing others. Anyway, what’s done is done, life goes on and we hope that our beloved team is well armed for next season.
Finally, thank you Bear for this beautiful and illustrative article on the early days of baseball. Greetings
Welcome Jose. It is all about the Benjamins these days. Has been since free agency came into being.
Let’s not be silly.
The organizations have little loyalty to the players, why should we expect in in reverse.
Let’s enjoy players making what they deserve, not what a team thinks they can get him for.
Hence the trade for Trea. Sometimes 1+1 does = 2.
Players come and they go. Free agency ended any loyalty any player might feel. Kersh has stayed in LA and made his money, if he retires tomorrow it is ok with me. Today is non tender day. Teams have to submit their lists today, and the Dodgers need a roster spot for Hudson, bye bye Raley. Yan Gomes signed with the Cubs and Baez finalizing a deal with the Tigers for 6 years.
Raley? I’m not sure how many relievers the Dodgers need, especially left handers. But I count 7 on the 40 man and that doesn’t include Heaney and Price.
Hudson is RH.
I know that. Raley isn’t a relief pitcher.
I know that. I am saying he should be non tendered in my weird humble opinion.
I had felt that Seager’s heart wasn’t really in it last year, but maybe that was just my imagination. He seemed to be stoic, but I know that he is never that effusive. But I had expected him to leave. I don’t know why AF said at the end of the season that he was 80% sure that he would re-sign Seager.
I have said before that the way baseball is now structured, all it takes is one team with one owner who wants to go big, who really wants your player, to outbid you on any individual player. That mostly happens to the Dodgers, with the notable exceptions of Betts and then Bauer. Cohen of the Mets is apparently willing to spend unlimited amounts. That is not good, but it is the reality.
We just lost one of our best hitters, someone I wanted to see with Betts as the two cornerstones of the franchise. Now we have one, if Betts is even healthy. Along with Buehler, perhaps, but pitchers are rarely cornerstones, they get injured. So we have a team which lost two of the best players we had during the stretch of last season. And our minor leagues simply do not have the talent level as before. Oh, and we probably have lost Taylor, too.
So what is ownership and management going to do? Make a few small changes, as with picking up Heaney and Hudson, and send the team out there with no real chance of a pennant? Totally rebuild, take four or five years to get back up there–if we even can? We’ve got the payroll back down, but will the fans be satisfied to see a team whose talent is limited?
One is always looking back and forward in history, and wondering what the verdict will be. I would say that the Dodgers had a great run from 2017-2021, but only one one title, that in a shortened season. I would contend that Dave Roberts’ overmanaging in big games cost us at least one more title. To have the talent we did, and to win all those games, and to not even win one full season title, is pretty bad, but it is obscured by the one title and the fan base. Now our run is over, and who knows how long it will take to build this back.
Quite a while, if we re not inclined to spend big any longer. We just don’t have the minor league talent to get us to having the best talent in baseball any time soon. We could get rid of everybody, have two bad seasons, and get high draft picks. Or more likely, we can be prudent, relatively frugal, and just be one of the pack. Next year, I would expect the Braves, Cards, Mets, Giants, maybe Padres, to be better. We’ve got two reliable pitchers ,though Urias’ stamina is still a question. The bullpen could be our strength, if we signed Knebel, unlikely, though. Our lineup is not great, we don’t even know how Muncy will be. Bellinger could hit .240. We’ve got no bench. We will be decent, but hardly great. The question is, how will management, with a self-imposed spending limit, outdo the other franchises which it seems are wiling to spend big on the top players? I am not particularly inclined to go through three or so decent but not great seasons, but that is what it looks like to me. Maybe some are more optimistic. Maybe AF can surprise everybody and come up with a couple of stars for the depleted lineup. We need them.
“Maybe some are more optimistic”? William, the guy down at the corner who is predicting the end of the world is more optimistic than you are.
You are despondent that the Dodgers don’t spend enough, but as of today, they have the third highest payroll in baseball, and of course, the off-season isn’t finished yet. How do you know that AF won’t go out and sign Freeman, Stroman and Rodon this afternoon.
You’ve listed four, possibly five teams that you expect to be stronger than us next year. The Mets, with all they’ve added, have a broken down pitching staff. I bet if deGrom and Carrasco were Dodgers you’d be predicting that neither would pitch next year. The Giants just lost their best pitcher and their best hitter, same as we did, but you don’t seem to think that will have the same effect on them as it will on us. Furthermore a number of their older players (now even older) had career years, while one of our better players (Belli) had a year that might have seen him sent down to OKC under different circumstances.
You always state your views eloquently but when I see your name at the top of a comment I hesitate to continue because when I’m done I usually want to jump off the nearest building.
I’d love to introduce you to my family, many of whom think I always view things negatively. I want them to see what a real pessimist sounds like.
Lastly, I hope I haven’t offended you because, as I said, you always state your views well. Just please give Andrew at least until the season starts before you throw in the towel on 2022.
IF Belli gets back to previous years abilities, to me, he a MUCH better, more exciting “cornerstone” than Seager would ever be.
cheers
pb+
William, your last paragraph is down right full of nonsense. There are many assumptions that have little of no chance of happening and you come off like they’re givens. Our lineup does not have to be great to be successful. We had a great lineup last year and look what happened.
A possible lineup for 2022 :
Smith C
Muncy 1B
Lux 2B
T Turner SS
JT / Rios 3B
Pollack LF
Bellinger CF
Betts RF
A pretty strong lineup that I would put up against any other team.
To say the Dodger FO is frugal is ridiculous. Just because they may not spend money this year, look what they have done recently (like last year). Where did you read that they were on a self imposed spending limit? What they did self impose on themselves is not to give Seager and Scherzer the stupid contracts that two weak and rebuilding teams offered. Does the farm system have potential superstars? Probably not, but we have some stars on the team now. How many stars can a team afford to keep? Probably not more than 3-4 and still have a solid team with depth necessary to get through a long season.
Look at this time last year when many were afraid of the Padres’ talent. How did that turn out? Or, how the Giants were the most overachieving team in recent memory. What are the chances of that happening again? I would think slim. So, we have a much more talented team right now than anyone else in our division. The team is not devastated with the lost of Corey or Max S. The Dodgers were 40-25 without Seager last year. And Max was only around a couple of months. Kershaw was missing the back half of the year. It’s not easy to win a pennant or WS. With uber talented teams it’s all about the injuries. Without them you’re a champion. With them you’re the 2021 LA Dodgers.
William, it will all be good in 2022. Go back over your post and turn all those negative opinions into positive thoughts and see if that makes you feel better about the Dodgers and their future. The chances of the positive happening are just as possible as the negative stuff you are concerned about. After all, we could be Mets or Ranger fans.
Carry on
The player I would not like to lose the most is CT3. His contributions to the starters when they were out would be hard to replace.
I am fine with Corey and Max leaving.
Way too much money for both on them IMHO.
Corey is injury prone and Max almost at the end of the line in his career.
If the Dodgers can sign a guy like Stromann our rotation would be fine IF Bauer comes back .
Bauer, Walker, Julio, Strohmann, Gonsolin and Dustin when he comes back in August is a fine rotation. And dont forget Bobby Miller who I think will make a push for that Nr. 5 starter in Spring Training.
You notice I left out Clayton. Again, IMHO I do not see him pitch for us in 2022. Just a gut feeling .
TT will fill in just fine for CS at ss and I have all confidence that Lux finally will assert himself at 2b.
That should leave us some financial wiggling room to sign a solid RH bat and a top notch reliever .
Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I feel really bad for people like William who manage to look at everything from the worst possible angle. To think that this team doesn’t have a shot at a pennant is ludicrous. I remember at the beginning of last year, this team was going to be one of the best EVER! To some, it probably disappointed. To me, 106 wins is freaking great! It’s great without all the injuries we endured. But, to do it with all those injuries was phenomenal.
Just for fun, here’s last year’s opening day roster vs this years, right now before the offseason is over…
Catchers
2021 Smith, Barnes
2022 Smith, Barnes
Infield
2021 Muncy, Lux, Seager, Turner
2022 Muncy, Lux, Turner, Turner
Outfield
2021 Betts, Bellinger, Pollock
2022 Betts, Bellinger, Pollock
Bench
2021 Taylor, Rios, McKinstry, Beaty
2022 Rios, McKinstry, Beaty (Replacement for CT3)
Rotation
2021 Kershaw, Bueller, Bauer, May, Urias
2022 Bueller, Bauer, Urias, Heaney, Gonsolin
Bullpen
2021 Jansen, Treinen, Alexander, Gonzales, Knebel, Gonsolin, Nelson, Price
2022 Treinen, Kahnle, Vesia, Gonzales, Bruihl, Graterol, Hudson, Price (Phillips, Bickford, Ferguson, White)
Can anyone tell me how we are so bad now that we go from Historic to not competing for a pennant like William suggests? I still don’t see a team, especially in the NL that is as complete as ours.
Sure, starting pitching could be a little weak to start the season whether or not we retain Kershaw and when Bauer makes it back. But, the fact that the Dodgers didn’t go out and get a front line starter should tell you that they think Bauer is indeed coming back.
Needs… Another Starting Pitcher and a bat off the bench. Anything else is gravy.
Scratch Muncy. In case you have not read the report, he has a torn UCL. Chances he is ready by opening day are slim
Well, you were wrong about Scherzer getting $50M per year. You want to double down on Muncy not being ready by opening day? It wasn’t a report. It was a quote. “A torn UCL is a slow process, but we’ll come back, everything is going according to plan and thankfully it’s the offseason so we can come back from that”.
That was straight from the interview out of the horse’s mouth. He’s obviously not having surgery, so it’s a partial tear and he’s rehabbing. Nothing here suggests that he won’t be ready by Spring Training. If you have more information, I welcome to hear it.
I said chances he is ready are slim, and I never said Scherzer was going to get 50 mil a year. I never predicted how much he would get. I knew LA would never give him a huge deal. 50 mil for one player in a year is a ridiculous number. It turns out now that one of the reasons he left is that LA would not guarantee the third year. Smart move by AF.
B & P,
What about the Cardinals?
C – Molina vs. Smith
1B – Goldschmidt vs. Muncy
2B – Edman vs. Lux
SS – DeJong vs. Turner
3B – Arenado vs. Turner
LF – O’Neil vs. Pollack
CF – Bader vs. Bellinger
RF – Carlson vs. Betts
Cards SP – Flaherty, Wainwright, Matz, Mikolas & Hudson
Dodgers SP – Buehler, Urias, Haeney, Price, Gonsolin/May
Both BP’s are very much incomplete. Both organizations are looking for more pitching.
I have it 4 to 4 on position players (Smith, Trea Turner, Bellinger & Betts) and even on Starting Pitching (as is) but if Bauer is added then a slight edge to the Dodgers.
Thoughts?
Cards played the Dodgers tough all year. Wainwright shut down the bats in the wild card game. Taylor’s blast came off of the pen. And they might bring Albert back for a farewell tour.
Bauer doesn’t need to be added. He’s on the 40 man. He would have to be removed.
Here’s how I see it…
C – Smith is better than Molina. Molina is still solid with the glove, but his bat isn’t even close.
1B- Muncy is better than Goldy at this point in their careers.
2B – Edman is solid, did you know that Lux and Edman’s offensive numbers were very similar last year? Even though Edman is two years older than Lux and has played twice as many games. I’ll take Lux next year.
SS – Trea Turner, not even close
3B – I’ll take Nolan any day over Turner because of his glove. I’d also take Nolan’s power over Turner’s on base.
LF – Tyler O’Neil had a breakout year last year and AJ was still very close. Tyler will probably regress a little, AJ can bank on 850+ OPS any year he’s healthy. I call it a wash
CF – Belli, not even close
RF – Betts, not even close
I’ll Take Bueller over Flaherty and Urias over Waino. I’ll go ahead and insert Bauer in there since he’s on the roster. Heaney and Matz are the same guy. The Dodgers will make Heaney better, the Cardinals won’t improve Matz as much as the Dodgers will improve Heaney. I would say Gonsolin and Hudson are a wash.
I give the edge to the Dodgers staff before May returns. After May comes back, it isn’t so close. With health at the end of the year, no one matches up with Bauer, Bueller, Urias and May.
I think the Dodgers bullpen is way beyond complete. I think it’s ridiculously loaded. It will be the top pen in the league next year if we do nothing else. St Louis has some live arms, but they aren’t as deep.
Position Players, we are way ahead of them and the only two positions, it’s close. Our rotation and bullpen is better as well.
I can see how you got there based mostly on last year’s stats, but I don’t expect O’Neil to make such a huge gain without some regression coming. Lux was injured most of the year and still performed within a few points of Edman with way less experience and I don’t see how you can even say that Goldy is better than Max at this point in their careers.
What makes this Cardinals team really good is their defense.
We win 15-20 games more than the Cards do next year if everyone is fairly healthy on both teams.
Thanks Bear. An enjoyable read and some history gathered.
You are welcome
As the team stands RIGHT now, if the Dodgers are healthy, there are not many better teams in MLB.
1. Every position player has been an All-Star, except Lux;
2. There are two former MVPs on the team;
3. The bullpen is deep; and
4. The Dodgers’ Farm System is top 10.
Pay little attention to William’s Impersonation of Chicken Little.
Smith is not an All Star. Rios who will probably start at 1B at the beginning of the season is not an AS.
I do not know where you get that LAD has a top 10 farm system. Baseball America had them at #9 before they lost Ruiz and Gray. They are certainly going to fall from that level at the beginning of 2022. MLB Pipeline had them rated at 16 after the trade and after the draft. The Dodgers do not have a top 10 farm system. Their #1 prospect has had a total of 114 AB at low A.
The Dodgers are not as dire as William makes them out to be, but they certainly have holes. They have to replace a .900+ OPS bat in Seager. They have to replace their closer (and Daniel Hudson does not count). They have to replace Scherzer, and it better be with somebody better than Heaney. They have no bench (outside of backup catcher), and even if you think that their farm system is loaded, there are no AAA prospects ready. They do not need to make a lot of moves to win the NL West because SF and SD has not done much yet either. But SD will get Clevinger back and probably a healthy Lamet.
Sorry, did I miss something? Why do we need to replace our closer? And if Kenley is gone, why is Treinen not a good replacement? And frankly I thought Brusdar looked MUCH better at the end of the season & he could possibly take Blakes spot as the closer b4 the closer at some point, right? Just asking as I trust your bball opinion more than mine for sure.
cheers
pb+
Of course you are missing something. The Dodgers lost their closer (so far) from last year. Last year KJ had 38 saves and 5 blown saves. Treinen had 7 saves and 4 blown saves. I am thinking KJ was much better in the closer role than was Treinen. The Dodgers are much deeper with KJ as the closer and Treinen as the setup.
For September Graterol had a 4.66 ERA. So are we talking about a specific game where Graterol was MUCH better? Because 4.66 ERA for the final month is not much better to me. He had 0 saves and 2 blown saves for the year. So for the two you brought up to replace KJ, they had 7 saves and 6 blown saves. I will give you that Treinen can put more back to back and back to back to back games than can KJ. So no, the Dodgers are not better at closer without KJ.
Treinen had a very good year as a setup guy. Blake has had one tremendous year (2018) where he had 38 saves and 5 blown saves. In 2017 and 2019, he had 16 saves and 5 blown saves. Not real stellar closing. But you are right, Treinen will be their closer. But will he be better than was KJ? I will say no.
So since they have not offered KJ anything, though technically he is still ours, you are counting on him not being back ….. right?
I guess to be concise, that is what I was asking about.
Thanks
As of right now he is not a Dodger. He is a FA and can sign with any of the other 29 teams as well as the Dodgers. I going on what the situation is right now. It could change. The Dodgers could trade for Josh Hader and then they would have the best closer in the game. They could find a .900 OPS player to replace Seager, but they do not have one yet.
AC, you can’t compare a closer’s saves and blown saves to a setup guy unless you count the setup guy’s holds as well, so go ahead and account for those 32 holds.
Treinen almost always faced the best part of the lineup. Kenley got whoever got to bat in the ninth. I think Treinen is just fine as a replacement and Kahnle will replace Treinen’s role. Ferguson and Hudson are also adds. The bullpen will be even better than last year’s with or without Kenley.
You look at it your way. I look at it mine. There is no comparison between KJ and Treinen as a closer. Bottom line, Treinen did not get the job done in 4 out of 11 save opportunities (64% conversion). If that is your idea of a good conversion rate, then okay. It is not for me. For me, Blake Treinen is the ideal setup guy.
You have no idea how Kahnle will pitch next year. Career ERA 3.82 and career WHIP 1.286. Maybe he is lights out, but maybe he drifts back to his career numbers.
If you think the Dodgers are better with Kahnle as the setup to Treinen than was Treinen as the setup to KJ, they we absolutely disagree.
Well Jeff, none of those “Blown Saves” came in the 9th inning, they came in the 7th and 8th where he usually gets credited with a hold. You can misinterpret the stats all you want, but his conversion rate on actual saves in the 9th inning was 100%. If you count all opportunities where he can get credit for a “Blown Save” it would have been 90%. Still slightly better than Jansen’s 87%. I don’t see anything in either stat sheet to suggest one is clearly better than the other.
Who is misinterpreting stats? I don’t care what you want to call it. Treinen came in to keep the lead in a save opportunity and did not get the job done in 4 out of 11 times. He came into the game with the Dodgers up, and when he left the Dodgers were losing. For you it matters what the inning is. For me it is…did he get the job done when he came in.
Kenley Jansen
11 Years – 705 IP
Career ERA – 2.37
Career WHIP – 0.928
Strikeouts – 1,022 K and 204 BB
Career Saves 350 – Career Blown Saves 45
Blake Treinen
8 Years – 498 IP
Career ERA – 2.87
Career WHIP – 1.235
Strikeouts – 498 K and 192 BB
Career Saves 350 – Career Blown Saves 45
For me it is very clear who the superior closer is. But if you think Treinen is better than KJ, that is your prerogative. I am not trying to change your mind. I prefer KJ.
What you said was untrue. He didn’t come in in a save opportunity as noone uses guys for 2-3 innings at the back end of the game consistently anymore. The only real save opportunity is in the ninth inning. When he did that, he was perfect. If you want to go by career stats, Kenley was way better than him 6 years ago, but that doesn’t help us next year. If you want to say who was the better closer in their careers, I will give it to you. If you want to say what matters, who is the best closer next year, it’s a toss up. Either will get the job done and if you have one under contract, you probably don’t need to pay $15M+ for another one.
If you just want to argue stats, Kenley’s three straight years of a 3+ ERA doesn’t scream shut down guy either.
With Posey retiring and Molina almost in a wheelchair, I consider Smith an All-Star.
I think the Dodgers farm system is still TOP 10 even after the Departure of Ruiz and Gray.
Cartaya has taken great strides. Leonard, Vivas, Pepiot, Busch, Pages, Vargas, Outman, and others have replaced marginal prospects. Even without Gray and Ruiz, I think they are as good… probably better than last year. They have a plethora of pitchers who are getting close.
Because you consider Smith an AS, does not make him one. I suspect he will get there, but he hasn’t yet. You might as well say Lux is an AS because I consider him an AS.
So you know more than BA and MLB Pipeline. I’ll try to reach out to Jim Callis and Jonathan Mayo to let them know they should contact you about the Dodgers before they rate the other farm systems. BTW, how many other farm systems are you really familiar with to make the claim that you know more than BA and MLB Pipeline. Or maybe you are right that by losing both Ruiz and Gray, that made them a better farm system.
114 ABs in low A is great strides? I guess your standard is much lower than mine. Leonard and Vivas played at High A. Just exactly how fast do you think they can be MLB ready? Outman? I like him too, but he has had all of 166 ABs at AA. Remember all the hoopla on DJ Peters and Cody Thomas? One year does not make him a a future AS. Hopefully he will improve on 2021 and be ready to replace Pollock at some point. But as long as AJ is a Dodger, Outman will remain in MiLB. Pepiot is the only player you mentioned that has played at AAA, and he got torched at AAA. Can we at least give him some quality time in AAA before we anoint him ready? Two pitchers who were rated far better than Pepiot have thus far bottomed out at AAA: MacKenzie Gore and Forest Whitley.
I thought it fell already. Belli on the way Mark…enjoy it.
Absolutely agree 100%. Check my reply to him above. A hell of a way to go through life. It’s a game for goodness sakes.
Of course Corey went for the $$$. Scott Boras is his agent. Boras will always go for the most $$$. When was the last Boras client AF was able to negotiate a deal with? Harper? No. Cole? No. Rendon? No. Scherzer? No. Seager? No. How successful do you expect him to be with Belli, Urias, or Graterol? I have no idea how far he got with Semien. I am guessing that Castellanos is off the table for a variety of reasons, one being Boras as well as Bryant who is also a Boras client.
The 8 year $250MM extension would have been a nice deal for both Seager and LAD, but I am sure that Boras told Corey, “I will get you at least $300MM”. How often is Boras wrong? He was wrong with Moustakas at least once, but maybe twice. Although he is nicely paid for an oft injured infielder. But Boras got an overpay for Hosmer. And we know how successful he was with, Cole, Rendon, Strasburg, Scherzer (twice now), Altuve , and Semien. Boras was not wrong, and Seager got a guaranteed $75MM more than AF offered. We can all be p***** off, but how many out there are going to walk away from $75MM? Seager is a North Carolina boy. Texas will fit his personality better than LA or NY. LA is not his home. He lived in LA less than 100 days days of the year. LAD paid Seager $24.7MM for 7 years. I think he repaid the Dodgers plenty, especially with his 2020 playoff run. That is about a 3.0 WAR. His career bWAR is 21.3.
I will miss Corey. Max not nearly as much. He was with LAD for such a short time. LAD has faced Scherzer in the playoffs before (in his prime). I wish them both well.
I feel you Jeff. Boras has gotten his clients paid. As far as Cody goes, he is going to have to rewrite his script and turn things around the next couple of years to get the maximum benefit from his agent. A couple of mediocre years are not going to help his cause any. Scherzer was fun to watch until he couldn’t get out of the 5th inning in the playoffs. Then he could not go in the most important game of the year to that point, so a gassed Buehler had to take his place and we go home.
IMO, the issue is that Boras will always find a taker who will over value his client, while AF will stick to his idea of fair market value which is always less than Boras’. It is not a criticism, but an observation. In my estimation, AF will never out negotiate Scott Boras and get the player. He would have to overpay, which he generally does not. The one time he did pay an inflated value was for Bauer. What a mistake that was. Boras is a master negotiator. Go back to the Dodgers bidding against themselves for Kevin Brown.
Lots of rumors floating around today. One has LA kicking the tires on Freddie Freeman. A local boy who might be enticed to come home, also rumors LA is talking extension with Trea Turner. We will get some idea of how much Andrew values players on his roster by 5PM Pacific time as that is the deadline to tender contracts. Cody is now a dad. His daughter Caiden Carter Bellinger just arrived.
As I read it, Jon Heyman and Ken Rosenthal have floated the idea of Freeman to LAD. I am not sure that AF is negotiating with Freeman’s agent. It appears that NYY is seriously discussing Freeman (and with good reason). Toronto (why I do not know) is also interested. Vlad Jr to DH? I am not sure how that will play. I think AA is letting Freddie seek out his best deal, but will at least match whatever the offer is. I cannot see AA letting Freeman go. He is not going to get a $300MM deal like Seager. Right now the sticking point is Freddie wants 6 years guaranteed, Atlanta wants no more than 5.
Like I said, a rumor floating on Twitter. Wendle traded to Miami.
There are a lot of rumors. I just do not believe any that involve the Dodgers. Twitter rarely (if ever) gets it right. The NYY and NYM front offices have bigger mouths than AF and his staff.
I only focus on what the real BB reporters say. Heyman, Rosenthal and Passan usually get it right. Heyman was the one saying they were kicking the tires on Freeman.
Jeff (and anyone else who cares to comment), Rays are supposedly shopping Joey Wendle. Lefty bat who plays third, short and second all at above average defense and hits well enough. He was a 3+WAR player last year.
I think we need to see what it would take to get him. He would be some protection if we lose CT3 (although he doesn’t play outfield). He’s kind of like what we had hoped Zmac would be, except a far better fielder.
Are we interested? He made about 2 mil last year and has two years of arbitration left. Seems like a worthwhile use of funds to me.
STB, I was working on a post on this subject. I did not finish it, so I will include what I said about Tampa Bay.
The Wander Franco deal is now complete. 11 years $182MM extension. $25MM club option for 2033, plus escalators based on MVP voting that can take the contract to $223MM. The Rays are going to have significant payroll issues and will be looking for relief. This is where AF can surprise. There are a number of arb eligible Rays, but one they will absolutely want to move is RHSP Tyler Glasnow. He is out for 2022 due to TJ surgery recovery but should be fine in 2023. That would be his final year of control as he becomes a FA in 2024. His expected arbitration contract is $5.8MM. The Rays are not going to pay Glasnow to simply recover and rehab for $5.8MM.
One other player undoubtedly on the move will be CF Kevin Kiermaier. He will be earning $12MM in 2022 ($9MM AAV) with a club option of $13MM for 2023 ($2.5MM buyout). That is not a contract that TB wants to pay.
The Dodgers are not shy about paying pitchers with TJ surgery hoping for a return. Risky? Sure. LAD can afford the risk for a pitcher like Glasnow. The Dodgers do not currently have a 4th OF, and Kiermaier should be able to give 100 games in relief of the walking wounded of AJ/Belli/Mookie. Who would you rather have for 100 games? Kiermaier or Raley . It will not be Outman. Let him prove himself for a year at AAA before he becomes a legit consideration. How many anointed DJ Peters as a legit CF reserve, and he was simply released by LAD last year. There is a huuuge difference between AA pitching an AAA pitching much less MLB pitching. If Mookie’s hip acts up, who would you want in RF? Dodger AAAA player or a 3X GG and 1X platinum CF? Kiermaier’s splits are just about even for BA and OBP. He has more power against RHP, but he is not as anemic against LHP as Joc was.
I would have no problem with adding Wendle into that trade. I like McKinstry, but I would rather have Wendle. So yes. I thought about it before those reports came out, and I think AF could go a long way to make the team deeper and better.
Well it looks like Wendle is headed to Miami for 24 year old OF/1B Kameron Misner. Misner has reached as high as AA (62 PA). Former 1st round pick (2019) of Miami. I have no idea if AF even tried to get something done, but I am comfortable that he could have offered more than Misner had he wanted Wendle. It appears that AF is either comfortable with McKinstry as the utility army swiss knife or he is confident he can re-sign CT3. If AF is concerned about the potential of losing Justin Yurchak, he would have been a better option than Misner. Sometime there is just not a deal to be made.
But I still like the possibility of Glasnow and Kiermaier.
Based on what the Rays got for Wendle, AF definitely had no interest.
Glasnow would be great . Were you suggesting that both he and Kiermaier would go in the same trade? What do you think the Rays would want in return? Or if two separate deals, what would each take?
I would try to make it one trade. The Dodgers would have to include a couple on the 40 man so there would be room. Glasnow would go on the 60 day IL at ST and could be replaced then. It just makes sense to make it happen for both teams. What it would take? The unknown is the Rays budget is configured. Are they willing to take less to get out of the two contracts? I also do not know how other teams value the Dodger MiLB players. If you ask Mark, they are all going to be All Stars no later than 2023. I don’t think other teams are quite that high on them. But Kameron Misner for Joey Wendle?
Less than 4 hours to go to the deadline. I’m sure AF will do something before the deadline but getting Freddie Freeman is not one of them. The man has spent his entire career with Atlanta and as such he must OK any deal. He’s already 32 yo and a FA at the end of 2022.
With the money we saved by not signing Max and Corey we should extend Trea Turner; resign Knebel, Kelly; Taylor for 2B. As far as the pitching is concerned our BP will be fine. Our SP needs attention and without knowing what CK intends to and TB status still unresolved we will need 3 more SP.
With that in mind here is what I Propose:
A trade with Cincinnati: They send us Castillo; Gray; Suarez and Moustakas and in return they receive Lux, Rios, Gonsolin, White, Pepoit and Luis Rodriguez.
I know I’m going to get slammed for that but WTH.
Richie, the deadline you refer to is just for teams to non-tender ballplayers. That has nothing whatever to do with Freeman who, by the way, is not a free agent at the end of 2022. He’s a free agent right now.
For Trea to give up his chance at free agency and sign an extension now, it would IMHO take just about the same contract that Corey got yesterday. If AF wouldn’t spend that on Seager I’m thinking he might not spend it on Trea either.
My bad SB. I misread the info. My sight is catching up to my age. Thanks for setting me straight. It’s the reason why I don’t reply too much.
Hey, we’re all a bunch of old fogies here. Don’t let that stop you from commenting.
Yeah Richie, most of us are long in the tooth. If we have any! Post away and enjoy.
Corey did not turn down a $75 million pay cut to stay with the Dodgers. Texas has no state income tax and California has a top marginal income tax rate of 13%. In other words, Seager would have had to turn down close to an additional $40 million dollars in income tax difference to stay in California. Added to the 75 million difference in contracts and that’s about $115 million better off to sign with Texas, not to mention the significantly increased level of freedom there for him and his family.
There are 174.61 miles from Arlington to Austin–a rather long commute.
Taxes follow the states played in. He would still have to pay California State Taxes when Texas plays Oakland and LAA in California (Dodgers, Giants and Padres every three years). No state tax when playing Houston or Miami or Tampa Bay or Seattle. However, there is a state tax for games played in states that do have a state income tax. Signing bonuses are taxed in his state of residence, which for Seager is North Carolina. So while there is tax savings for signing with Texas, it is probably south of $40MM.
Thanks for the clarification, Jeff.
And his contract is front loaded. He is going to make 140 mil in the first 4 years. No deferrals.
1. Dodgers didn’t so much lose Scherzer as they lost 6 years+ of Ruiz and Josiah Gray but they still have a year left with Trea Turner.
2. The Dodgers traded Verdugo plus others for Betts and were able to extend Betts. They could extend Trea if the contract looks more like the one Baez got and less than the one Seager got.
3. Signing Freeman should push Muncy to DH and not second base because Lux should be the second baseman.
4. I think the Dodgers can trade for Chapman and extend him and that would allow Muncy to stay at first until Vargas or Busch replace Muncy. If Vargas or Busch can’t show enough in the next two years then on to plan B.
5. I guess I traded Rios and maybe White for Chapman or maybe Busch and Rios or maybe some combination.
Cubs signed Clint Frazier to a one year deal. Kelly leaves Notre Dame for LSU. College coaching merry go round continues. 1 hour 8 mins to tender deadline. No Dodger news as of now.
I like Clint Frazier. He is going to get a chance to be an everyday player for the Cubbies.
Farhan Zaidi makes a great point when he said you shouldn’t focus on one player. One or even two players really won’t impact the success of a team, no matter how good they are. Look no further than Mike Trout and the Angels.
Even with Corey Seager and Max Scherzer, the Dodgers couldn’t get past Atlanta. Those players will now receive almost a half billion dollars.
You still need pitching, starters and relievers, other players to play outfield and infield. A bench is important. Obviously some depth is needed.
So maybe, just maybe we put too much stock in the impact high price players can actually make. Is Corey Seager worth what the Rangers are paying. Probably not, but perhaps his name helps them build their fan base. They have a new stadium and want to make an impact. I get that. The Max Scherzer contract is risky. Will Scherzer hold up? Even if he does, will the Mets be able to overtake the Braves? All this smacks of a desperate owner who thinks money will put the Mets into the playoffs. Seldom does that work.
If the $250 million over eight years is what the Dodgers offered Seager, that’s a pretty good offer, especially since the Dodgers are in the playoffs every season. Seriously, how much money do you need? Every penny you can get Scott Boras would say.
So I’m glad the Dodgers passed.
Where do we go from here? We probably won’t know for awhile. But Andrew Friedman is pretty good at this. I’m guessing he figures it out. Obviously, the Dodgers will have financial flexibility moving forward, especially if MLB suspends Trevor Bauer.
Maybe there is a trade out there, but right now this is a pretty good team with a need to address starting pitching. Hey, the Giants patched together a pitching staff that led to 107 wins.
It would help, of course, if Cody Bellinger returns to normal and the team avoids the injury bug. But with two or three moves, the Dodgers can again be a force.
As far as shortstop, Trea Turner is better defensively, is a threat to steal 30 bases, lead the league in hitting and hit nearly 30 homeruns. It also opens up a chance for Gavin Lux to flourish. I’d like to see the Dodgers lock up Turner long term.
Riley contract estimate
https://twitter.com/RobertHefnerV/status/1465419950911365125?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1465419950911365125%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-9070743003271851751.ampproject.net%2F2111152338002%2Fframe.html
Andrew Vasquez draws the short straw. Dodgers have non-tendered him to make room for Hudson.
Makes sense. The Dodgers have a bevy of relievers, many who are LH. Hudson is a reliever. Right now, the #4 OF is Luke Raley.
Blew that one, I though ol Rales was a goner for sure. MLB.com was predicting it would be Barnes. Padres getting Alfaro from the Marlins for a PTBNL or cash. Boyd non tendered by the Tigers, Gsellman non tendered by the Mets and John Curtiss cut loose by the Brewers along with Vogelbach.
I am expecting to read that the Dodgers have signed Matthew Boyd and/or Chad Kuhl both non-tendered. It sure seems this is the direction for 2022.
Richard Rodriguez non-tendered by the Braves.
I can see AF biting on that. Atlanta had to make room for Kirby Yates.
I think they might bite on one of them at least. Boyd was the #1 prospect in Detroit for a while. It’s only money.
See OldBear. Like I said, too many left handed relievers. Raley lives to fight another day. But, I wouldn’b bet that he survives the entire offseason. 😉
Yeah BP, I blew it. But there are a lot of lefty’s out there anyway. Braves non tendered Richard Rodriguez who AF had an interest in when he was a Pirate. And the D=Backs non tendered Tyler Clarke. Kid has some nasty stuff but has control issues.
This could be the year (2022) when the Dodgers get a lot younger and bring up a lot of guys to fill in. I am not that confident that Chris Taylor will resign but the Dodgers have his replacement in Zach McKinstry basically. Dodgers teach most of their players multiple positions in order to maximize their bench. The starting pitching depth and the relieving group depth is a problem. I think that the whole lockout thing is affecting if and when a lot of guys sign. Dodgers may have deals mostly in place but wont pull the trigger just yet. I hope the Dodgers move Trea to SS and have Lux or Busch at 2nd and backing up the outfield on occasion. I just hope that the whole Bauer thing gets resolved one way or the other before next season.
Turner is the new SS. Bank on it and Lux will get the first shot at being the everyday 2B. Busch is not that close yet.
I think it was Bear that wrote that the Dodgers are looking to possibly extend Trea Turner. They should. However, there is absolutely no reason for Trea Turner to extend, unless AF is going to overpay. AF wasn’t willing to overpay for Seager, so I do not see him overpaying for Turner. Next year TT’s competition in FA will be Elvis Andrus, Didi Gregorius, and Dansby Swanson. Tim Anderson has a $12.5MM club option that CWS is sure to pick up. Xander Bogaerts could opt out of the remaining three years of his contract ($60MM). That is possible. But Trea will be driving SS FA bus next year. He is going to get $19MM to $20MM this year in arbitration. There is not urgency for Turner to extend.
Unless Bogaerts is hurt next year or has a Bellinger 2021 season, there is no way he doesn’t opt out. He’ll be far closer to a $30MM per year player than the $20MM per year in his current contract. Also opting out next year before his age 30 season will make him far more desirable than waiting for three years.
If Bogaerts has a year that he should have, then I agree he will opt out. However, Turner is still the better option. There would be two elite SS instead however many there are this year. Turner is going to get paid, unless the CBA has salaries declining. Owners as a group cannot be crying about the escalating salaries. Texas committed one half billion dollars on two players, and $561.2MM on their four thus far. They say they are not done. The Mets already with a huge payroll committed another $254.5MM on four players. They say they want another quality SP and another big bat. Even the Tigers committed $217MM on two players. The “wealthy” teams thus far – NYY $0 committed. Bos – $7MM committed. LAD – $15.5 committed. The “stupid spending” Phillies have $0 committed. There is still time, to spend. Which teams will. Nearly half of the top 50 FA have signed. Correa, Freeman, Bryant, Story, Castellanos, and Stroman all project to exceed $100MM.
Not counting the Wander Franco extension, with the signing of Brooks Raley today, the Rays have committed $18MM to two players (Kluber and Raley).
I think that with the signing of Corey and Baez the market has been closed to Correa, I do not see at this moment a team that gives him what he wants in money and in years, I think he will receive an offer of something like: “this it’s what we have for you, take it or leave it. ”
I don’t see the Phillies, Cards, NYY, Houston, nor to any other team, offering 10/300 +.
Totally agree DH. I don’t see anyone left out there who will give him 300 mil.
I’ll be interested to see what happens.
Freeman would be a franchise-altering move.
Let’s do it.
JP Morosi reporting Raisel Iglesias back to the Angels, 4 years/58 mil.
I’m assuming Kenley feels he’s worth just about the same. Let’s see if anyone, most of all Andrew Friedman, agrees with him.
Yadiel Hernandez of the Nats, on his Instagram, just published a photo of CT3, why would he do that?, Will CT3 go to the Nats?
I think Kenley stays in LA for 2 years/$25 Million.
Kenley si 3 years older than Iglesais.