Recently I was asked by a friend of mine who reads this blog if I would do a story about Willie Davis. I thought that was a good idea, but since their careers started so close together, I thought I would just add Tommy to the story too. I hope it is something you all will be interested in.
Tommy Davis
Since he was a kid signed while the Dodgers were in Brooklyn, and a little older than Willie, I will do his story first. Tommy Davis came into this world on March 21’st, 1939. He was born in Brooklyn. He lived in the Bedford-Stuyvesant area of the borough. His birth name was Herman Thomas Davis Jr. His mom always called him Tommy. Dad was Herman.
His favorite team was always the Dodgers. It became even more so after Jackie Robinson broke in. Every time they would play the Yankees in the series, the lone Yankee fan in his family, his Uncle Dan, would come by and rub it in. Dan was 6’3″ 250 pounds and his voice was so loud, it could be heard down the block.
The gloating ended when the Dodgers won in 55 and Uncle Dan moved away. By then, the 16-year-old Davis was a standout sports star at Boys High. He and Lenny Wilkins were All-City standouts on the basketball team. Davis was the star catcher on the baseball team.
Hitting came easy for Davis. He began his baseball odyssey playing fastpitch softball when he was nine. When he began playing hardball he felt he had more time to swing. He never was a power hitter, he just took what the pitcher gave him and tried to hit it as hard as he could.
He learned the inside part of the game from his Kiwanis League coach, Clarence Irving. Irving was the only African-American coach in the league and he drilled his team in fundamentals. The team was made up of all the different ethnic groups that lived in Brooklyn. In 1955 they made it to the state finals in Watertown NY. After the Watertown team built a 5-2 lead, they began to hurl racial slurs at the Brooklyn team. When Davis heard the word ” Sambo “, he went on a tear and his team won, 7-5.
He was on the radar of several teams including the Yankees, Phillies, and the Dodgers. The Yankees rolled out the red carpet, telling him he could work out at Yankee Stadium any time he wished. Davis did that about 4 times, he would hit with the pitchers and shag balls when the regulars hit. He was leaning towards signing with the Yankees, despite pleas from scout Al Campanis about leaving his Brooklyn roots. Al also quoted how much the Dodgers black players enjoyed the atmosphere in Brooklyn.
A personal phone call from Jackie Robinson on the Sunday of the week he was going to sign changed everything. He signed on Tuesday afternoon. He was supposed to sign with the Yankees that evening. He got a 4,000 dollar bonus. The most you could get without having to spend 2 years in the majors. Another Brooklyn prospect, Bob Aspromonte signed for the same amount, plus a little under the table. Tommy said just the fact that Jackie took the time to call changed his mind.
He spent his first summer as a pro playing for the Hornell Dodgers in upstate New York. It was also the first time he had ever played night baseball and it took some getting used to. But he hit .325 in 43 games. In 57 he found himself in Kokomo playing in the Class D Midwest League. He was homesick, but his manager Pete Reiser took him under his wing.
He credited Reiser with making him a man. Reiser also encouraged him to be more aggressive at the plate and on the bases. He led the league in hitting with a .356 mark and set a league record for steals with 68.
Next, stop Victoria of the Texas League, and despite a sore wrist, much more advanced competition, the 19-year-old Davis hit .304. He also faced a lot of racial discrimination in Texas, but the more they yelled, the harder he played. He finished up the year at Montreal, got into 14 games, and hit .308. The Royals won the International League title that year.
In 1959 he was assigned to the Dodgers’ other AAA affiliate, Spokane. Playing for Bobby Bragan, the 20-year-old Davis, who now was playing the outfield almost exclusively, won his second batting crown with a .345 mark. He also said he learned a lot from his older teammates, Bob Lillis, Frank Howard, and Maury Wills. The Dodgers rewarded him with a September call-up, but he only had one plate appearance and struck out. He was not eligible for the World Series.
He made the team out of spring training in 1960. He got his first start in the 3rd game of the year and his first hit, an infield single off of Ron Kline. He was playing CF. He got into 57 games as the team’s CF, the most on the team. One foggy night he made a Willie Mays type catch against the Coliseum’s CF fence, 425 feet away. The umpire called the batter out based on the wild cheers of the LA fans since he could not see the catch.
He hit .274 in 374 at-bats, with 11 homers and 44 RBI’s both 4th highest marks on the team. In 1961 he again played all 3 outfield positions, but he played most of his games at 3rd. Alston was determined to make him into a third baseman. But the experiment ended when they traded for Darryl Spencer. Davis could never understand why you short-armed the throw from third and throwing like an outfielder, he would sail the ball over Hodge’s head.
His batting average climbed 3 points and he hit 15 HRs and started to get some well-deserved press. But the next season, at age 23, Davis came into his own.
The 62 season started and by June he was hitting in the .330’s and it never came down. He was piling up hits and driving in runs. He was their best clutch hitter. Rarely a day went by when he was not driving in runs. Of course, all of the headlines were going to Maury Wills and his chasing of Cobb’s stolen base record.
The myth about the 62 Dodgers is that they usually won by a run or two. The truth is that when their offense was clicking they usually trounced their opponents. Davis had 100 RBIs by the end of July. He played in both All-Star games that year.
Tommy ended up hitting .346 and winning the batting title. He drove in 153 runs and hit 27 homers. The Dodgers ended up losing the playoff with the Giants. In 63, Davis won the batting title a second time with a .326 avg. The Dodgers swept the Yankees in the series and Davis had 2 triples in game 2. He drove in the only run in game 3, a 1-0 win.
64 was a down year for the team and Tommy. His average dropped all the way to .275. In 65 the team rebounded, winning 97 games. On May 1st with the Giants in town, he was running to second on a grounder to Cepeda, who flipped to Perry, Davis not knowing if there would be a play on him slid awkwardly, and his spike caught in the clay and it turned his ankle completely around.
The Dodger trainer came on the field and snapped his foot back in place. When Dr. Kerlan checked it in the clubhouse, he told Davis it was like a bag of walnuts in there. He would miss the rest of the season with a break and dislocation of his ankle. Lucky for the Dodgers, his replacement, Lou Johnson, had a career year. For many years after, Lou would thank Tommy when he saw him for making his career.
He came back in 1966 hoping to prove he was his old self. His batting stroke was there, but the power was gone. He hit .313 in 313 at-bats, but only had 15 extra-base hits and 3 HRs. After the season, he was traded to the Mets for Ron Hunt and Jim Hickman.
That started Tommy’s baseball odyssey. Over the next several seasons he ended up playing in order: the Mets, White Sox, exposed to the draft and selected by the Seattle Pilots, Astros, A’s Cubs, Oakland again, the Cubs, Orioles. His last full season was 1975. He signed with the Yankees in 76 but was let go after spring training. He stayed in shape and signed with the Angels, then went to the Royals.
On October 2, 1976, Davis played his 1999th game. He collected two hits, numbers 2,120 and 21. After the Royals released him, Tommy decided to call it quits. When he retired he worked for the Dodgers as a minor-league instructor, and in the community relations department. In 1981 he worked for the Mariners as their hitting coach. He then came back to work in the community relations department.
He also would work at their fantasy camps. He still is part of the community relations department of the Dodgers. Tommy and his second wife have a daughter and live in Los Angeles. He has four children from his first marriage.
Willie Davis
The 3 Dog. William Henry Davis was born on April 15th, 1940 in Mineral Springs, Arkansas. He later was a star athlete in baseball, track, and basketball at Roosevelt High School in Boyle Heights. He signed with the Dodgers in 1958 and was called up briefly in 1960.
Most said the greatest impression the young Davis made on everyone who saw him was his speed. Manny Mota once said he saw Davis score from second base on a fly ball to center field.
In his rookie season he batted .254 with 12 HRs and 45 RBI’s. He stole 12 bases. Starting in 1962 when he stole 32, he would steal 20 or more for the next 10 seasons, altogether 11 in a row. Davis was a contact hitter and over his entire career he never struck out more than 88 times a year. And he only was in the ’80s twice. This is a guy who is getting 600 plus plate appearances every year.
He led the league in triples twice, 10 in 62, and 16 in 1970. His 3 best years in BA came in a row, 69, 70, 71 when he hit over .300 all three years. He only topped 20 HR’s once, 1962. In 1969 Willie had a 31 game hitting streak, breaking Zack Wheat’s team record 29. Wheat gave him a congratulatory message via telegram which was flashed on the Dodger Stadium scoreboard when he tied the record. It said ” Congratulations, keep going, you have done a great job, good luck.
He holds LA Dodger records for career hits, 2091, runs, 1004, triples, 110, at-bats, 7,495, total bases, 3094, and extra-base hits, 585. Willie played in LA until 1973 when he was traded to the Expos after the season. He was traded after the season to the Rangers. Towards the end of the season, he was again traded to the Cardinals. In 76 he played for the Padres and finished up with 2 years in Japan playing for the Chunichi Dragons and the Crown Lighter Lions.
Davis finished with a career .279 avg, 182 HR’s, and 1053 RBIs. He had 2561 hits and stole 398 bases. Davis got married in 1963 to Jeanna LemYou and converted to Buddhism because of her. He would constantly finger prayer beads and chant before games. He adopted her son, and they had two daughters before divorcing in 1975.
He also has another son, Shonan Casey Davis with his second wife. During his career, there were always discussions about unrealized potential. Buzzie Bavasi once said, there was nothing more exciting than watching Willie run out a triple. He could have been a hall of Famer, he had million-dollar legs and a 10 cent head. Buzzie was never one to pull punches.
After baseball, Willie’s life was troubled with drug use and brushes with the law. Tommy Hawkins, who worked in the front office for the Dodgers, did his best to help Willie as much as he could. On March 9th, 2010, Davis was found dead in his apartment in Burbank. He was 69 years old. For fans of that era, he will always be either Willie D, or the 3 Dog. Exciting to watch him run or field. He won 3 gold gloves in his career.
I’m not quite old enough to have seen the Davis’ play. But, I appreciate the history of the team so I thank you for the lesson. It’s important to remember and honor those who came before us in sports as well as life in general.
When I saw philjones’ comment about Ozzie “Too big an ego. Too big a mouth.” I thought of Manny and Fernando and realized he’s a perfect fit.
A few tribes came out to say the Tomahawk Chop is racist? Well, of course they did. Anything to fuel the fire of racism is en-vogue today. Sorry, but not sorry about this feigned outrage. I’m sure someone is getting some dark money to support this narrative. It couldn’t possibly be a bunch of people honoring the indigenous for their prowess and bravery on the battlefield. No, racist is the easy explanation.
When I watched the Italians play in the Euro this summer, I thought it was awesome how all the italians owned their stereotypes. People were dressed up as Mario and Luigi, Chefs, Popes and Roman Soldiers. They even had guys holding up signs saying “No Pineapple on Pizza”. We need more of this and less of the “Everything is racist” crap you see here.
I didn’t see the game last night, but I did check scores a couple of times. I’m rooting for the racists to beat the cheaters, so the outcome was a good one for me. I’m sad to hear that Morton broke his leg. Hopefully, they’ll be able to overcome this because I surely don’t want to see the cheaters win.
Speaking of cheating, The Cheatos actually started their cheating ways long before the trashcan incident. They cheated by throwing 4 consecutive seasons while stacking No 1 overall draft picks. I actually felt sorry for them at the time and they were my favorite AL team while they were developing these picks. I followed the likes of Correa, Altuve and Springer when they were coming up and thought they were an exciting team. Now, they’re dead to me and the worst part of all this was Correa’s big mouth defending his team after being caught. It’s completely unfair and shows the ineptitude of this commissioner when not one player was suspended not a single day and the team wasn’t stripped of their title. Manfred is a complete joke.
This offseason will be an interesting one especially when Bumsrap does his favorite thing, posting trade proposals. I’m wondering if we’ll see many surprises this offseason or next year in terms of the roster. It’s always exciting to see new players join the team, but this team is still pretty complete yet has some work to do.
Our obvious need is Starting Pitching. CK’s contract is up and he’s coming off his worst year since his rookie season, which still happens to better than most pitchers around the league. It might be a hard to sell to bring back Corey and Scherzer, but they may get a partial refund on Bauer’s contract. Surely Boras will want to wait until March in order to get Corey signed as he does with his big name players, so planning and alternatives will be challenging. It makes a lot of sense to bring back CT3 especially if Seager walks, but will he want to wait until Corey signs to ink his own deal?
Down on the farm, it doesn’t look like any OKC players are useful, much less impactful to expect much help on the major league roster. But there’s several interesting names that had close to a full season of AB’s at Tulsa. Could we see a surprise from one of them? Miguel Vargas is just 21 and had another very solid season. So far, he’s hit over 300 in each full year in the minors and was the Dodgers’ Minor League Player of the Year. Noda and Yurchak and Busch all had nice seasons and are all 23-25 YO. Outman also had a nice season, but had just 39 games at AA.
I could see a couple of these guys get a callup next year to cover injuries. I think Miguel Vargas is most likely for an early arrival with a hot start at AAA next year and he’s been playing some second base as well as 3rd and 1st.
…..”A few tribes came out to say the Tomahawk Chop is racist? Well, of course they did. Anything to fuel the fire of racism is en-vogue today.”
……”I’m rooting for the racists to beat the cheaters”
Thank you BP. I appreciate that. Willie was exciting to watch. He was extremely fast and would get to balls you thought he had no chance of catching. It is sad that one of the things he is remembered for is making 3 errors in one inning of Sandy Koufax’s last game, in the 1966 World Series. His 31 game hitting streak generated a lot of excitement, and I was sad when they traded him to Montreal for Mike Marshall. I have met Tommy Davis. He came to the home I was living at in Highland Park to help open the new rec building. Norm Sherry was there too. I met him again years later at Dodger Stadium when they used to have players on each level of the stadium signing autographs on Sundays. He signed the first baseman’s mitt I had at the time. Manfred is a weak sister as a commissioner. If nothing else, Houston should have had to vacate the title and there not be a champion that season. The Dodgers would not want one that way. They payed a minimum fine of 5 million, only the manager, the GM were suspended. The only player from the team who lost anything was Carlos Beltran, who was ready to be named the manager of the Yankees, and had to pull his name from consideration. Hinch and Cora both have jobs again. The GM is out of baseball. And then even though the proof was out there, all of the players denied everything. Most of the talent in the system is at AA or below. Neuse, Pepiot, Estevez, Santana, Jackson, White probably the closest to being MLB ready. Outman had some nice games last spring. It will be interesting to see which kids from the lower level look like they might help next spring, when ever that is. I think a lot of what happens with the starting pitching is going to hinge on A. what the new CBA says, B. how the Bauer situation is resolved, C. How much they either want to keep or just let Kersh and Max walk. People today get their feelings hurt way to easily. You could not make Blazing Saddles in this atmosphere. The tomahawk chop to me is merely annoying. Just like the Beat LA chant in SD and SF.
It’s funny how much more annoying it is when the Braves do it as opposed to when the Seminoles do it. 😉
Beat LA chant is the most annoying sound to me. It just gets old. Especially on nights when the Dodger beat them.
Back in 1962, Tommy had one of the best seasons a Dodger hitter ever had and Willie Davis had a big year too. Although the Dodgers didn’t win the league, it was a sign of big things to come, both players being young. Although Tommy had a good 1963 and Willie had a pretty good career, the duo never quite reached the superstar status that was projected. But ’62 was an incredible season with a bad ending.
Good write-up, Bear.
My family in Tennessee are big Atlanta Braves fans. I always thought the chop was pretty silly. It became absolutely hilarious when Jane Fonda was doing it, the look on her face priceless.
It would be great to sit in on an Andrew Friedman session as we approach winter and listen to how he really feels as we approach a time of great upheaval and potential change.
Plan for today and tomorrow with an eye to the future beyond that. He has already said that players on the market, perhaps those not in line to have big pay days will be of utmost importance to the Dodgers in 2022. He indicated that with all the trades he doesn’t expect the farm system to produce much help next year, most of the prospects a year or two away.
Probably means the Dodgers will search for the next bounce back star or role player, much like the Giants did this last year.
Obviously, LA needs to rebuild bench depth, definitely missed Kike and Joc.
I expect the Dodgers to move forward with Clayton Kershaw. That’s maybe the one certainty of the winter.
Everything else is up in the air. If Cory Seager would move to third, that would make a lot of sense to both the Dodgers and him. But he can play short and wants to continue in that role. No question about that. I can see the Dodgers reluctantly walking away.
But like Farhan Zaidi said, never focus on one player, lots of ways to win. He also said that Seager is the one player on the Dodgers that the Giants spent a lot of time preparing to face.
MLB needs to step forward and resolve the Trevor Bauer issue. Will the DA decide to move forward? They haven’t done well in high profile cases.
Going to be a big winter. Allowing Zack Greinke to walk certainly didn’t help make for a better team. They even tried to make a deal with Arizona to get him back. Will the Dodgers make the same mistake with Seager?
I often find your take sad BullP. So much misunderstanding still exists in this nation.
Tommy Davis. I learned a lot from him. Using what he he taught me I went from a .300 hitter to a .400 hitter in a matter of weeks. His key back then was hitting top spin line drives. “7 out of 10 line drives are base hits.” There’s a technique to that, and it requires focus, strike zone discipline and a lot of repetition. I would take 100 swings a day in my backyard using the techniques Tommy Davis taught. Today’s hitting philosophy, the approach and swing, is obviously not the same.
Didn’t see the game yesterday. Don’t much care.
I have a few thoughts about what might happen for the Dodgers going forward, but for now I’ll just keep most of them to myself. I hope we have a different approach to defense, but don’t expect it to change really. The recent stats posted by campy are embarrassing but not surprising. I don’t know who of our prospects will be good enough to make the roster let alone compete for ROY. I don’t see any that leap out, but I don’t follow that aspect as closely as I usta did. I’ll trust the experts here to give well founded opinions.
It’s football season for me. Rams, Chargers, SC, UCLA and Oregon. Anybody but the SEC please.
Likewise Badger, I find most of your takes firmly seated in an alternate universe like BiZarro World where everything is backwards. Maybe you should get out more and talk to people. I do find your your bizarre claims of fixing Bellinger and teaching Kershaw a changeup amusing like when I see Brandon mutter intelligible sentences that make no sense to anyone. Besides wedging your head firmly inside Mark’s soft serve machine, you’re also free to ignore and not comment on my posts. But, I do enjoy writing back when you step out of line.
Love how a member of one ethnic group feels they can speak for another ethnic group and what they may find offensive.
And I love your passive aggressive comments. We have a reciprocal relationship.
BP, I am truly sickened by your need to make gratuitously nasty comments about other people and individuals. When Badger says he finds it sad, he means that it is sad that you need to treat people this way.
Cry me a river David. I don’t know who you are or why you feel the need to translate for Badger and tell me what he was thinking, but I responded to his post saying “He OFTEN finds my take sad”. So it was meant as an insult, so I responded in kind.
Now, let me point out, you are also insulting me just like Badger did. But you’re playing the victim like I did something to you, which I did not do. You’re also accusing me of doing what you and Badger actually did to me. You are a hypocrite.
Good day.
Badger’s comment was a passive aggressive way to insult someone AND morally self-aggrandize himself at the same time. It’s a trait.
You’re not “truly sickened.” That’s a rhetorical device.
If you don’t agree with him or find him obnoxious, that’s fine. Just address that and make your point. The contrived phony outrage to discredit or score points is fundamentally dishonest.
You are so wrong patch.
I DO find it incredibly sad that so many people in this country so quickly and with such indifference dismiss a minority’s concerns about what they consider to be racism. Bullpen wears his feelings on his sleeve. If he puts it out there are we all just expected to ignore it?
DL’s suggestion is just that – ignore it, but I know I am not the only one who feels this way. I didn’t attack. I stated my opinion and moved on. There was much more to my post than those few words to BP. Why was there no response to that?
Absolutely not you don’t have to ignore it. He put his opinion out there. You have every right to respond. You should, actually.
Just do so directly, honestly and respectfully. Don’t hide behind moral posturing. Don’t be obtuse or snide. Make a persuasive case.
Says the guy who said “”f*** you” then disappeared for weeks. Not sure you’re the one who should be giving advice on to present debate
So much misunderstanding does indeed still exist in this nation, your post being but one recent example.
You can disagree with a position. That’s common, even essential in an evolving society. Greater understanding comes from addressing the actual substance of disagreement honestly and respectfully, trying to understand the opposing point of view thoughtfully, and then coming up with a better position that is persuasive.
Sneering condescension and deliberate mischaracterization serve only to reinforce a sense of moral certitude. They are avoidance techniques that, in the shorter term, feed one’s narcissism and, long term, create echo chambers which create distorted belief systems. Disagreement – “diversity” of thought, actually – are essential to a functional society.
B&Ps opinions are neither sad nor uninformed, even if I strongly disagree with them. They are different, and are influenced by individual factors. You can address and persuade, which is constructive (and requires more work) or you can make yourself feel better by being snide and condescending, which is not.
Michael – once again thanks for yet another great read, and for all the effort you put into this place.
I had to take some time away to lick my wounds. I have read all the comments since our demise, and each to their own, but I absolutely hate losing, especially when you are better than the team that beats you,
I cannot understand the sentiments that it “wasn’t too bad to lose to the Braves”. Really? It was for me.
This could still have been our year despite the numerous and untimely setbacks . We were still good enough to win it all, but once again we came up short.
It’s only my opinion, but the WS winner this year will be the poorest in recent times. With better execution of course, and better deployment of resources by Doc coupled with AF backing his hunch properly that we needed more SP at the TD, the outcome could have been different.
We look back at the Braves dynasty of the 90s, and all say that they underachieved. What will people do when they look back at our perennial Post Season excursions, with only one Ring to show for them all?
It makes me sound ungrateful of course, but ultimately I’m disappointed.
The series with Atlanta typified all that has been wrong. We could easily have won 4 of those 6 games, but didn’t.
SF have won 3 WS in 10 years with poorer teams.
I know we can’t win it every year, but this time, even with all the setbacks (too numerous to rehash again), it is my belief that we should have won the WS in 21, and should be celebrating a 3rd or 4th win in the last 8 years.
There are lots of reasons why we didn’t win each year and Bluto is right, it is a F’ing difficult thing to do, but ultimately history will see us as underachievers.
I know not many will see it this way, but it’s all about Winning for me.
On another note, how come Mookie hasn’t gone under the knife yet?
I know he’s getting married, but surely his career must take priority?
Definitely underachieving.
Only one title over those years is disappointing. The comparison with those Braves team is absolutely justified.
I put most of the blame on DR. Too many bad decisions in critical situations.
Too many to list them all.
To me he just is not a good big game/series manager.
Go Dodgers!
I was wondering the same thing about Mookie. Maybe he doesn’t necessarily need surgery and they’ll manage it with PT and Cortisone until it becomes worse.
I also agree that I don’t want to be known as the Braves of the 2010/20’s. With a couple of rings, they would have been known as a Dynasty. With only one, they are forever known as a disappointment.
As far as exiting at the hands of the Braves, as long as it wasn’t the Giants…
I don’t feel as bad this year because AF did everything in his power to build a juggernaut. In the end, it was just too much injuries to bare. Even the guys on the roster were banged up and the pitching was overused due to the combination of a long season after a short offseason and the lack of available Starting Pitchers to take the pressure off the ones we had.
It think the biggest misfortune was having Muncy injured on the last day of the season. There was also some mismanagement as there always is with Doc’s teams. Continuing to have your most productive hitters at the bottom of the lineup was an example of this analytics focused team being slow to make an adjustment. It takes time for sample sizes to be large enough to act upon and by then it’s too late. Managing with your eyes and heart allows you to make more timely decisions. I’m not sure Doc is that guy.
The Dodgers sure cracked the DaVinci code when it comes to maximizing wins in the regular season. But, not learning by now that the postseason is a different animal is their Achilles heel.
Thank you Watford. I was disappointed that they lost, but I also kind of saw it coming. When they went down 3-1 I just felt that pulling off a miracle comeback a second time was not viable. And the reason was the pitching. Especially when they announced that Scherzer was not going to start game 6. I would have really been upset though if they had lost to the Giants. Depriving the hated ones of going any further in the playoffs, and doing it on their homefield, just made the win all that much better. Had they won game 1 or 2 of the NLCS, I would have felt better about them winning. But knowing when they came back down 0-2 and needed to sweep the 3 games in LA to get in front, and with the pitching set up the way it was, it just seemed like too big of a hill to climb. As for Mookie, players if they need surgery rarely do it right after the season ends. They will wait a couple of weeks. And so far there has been no mention that surgery is needed. I am sure if his docs think he needs it, it will get done.
Does anyone have a link to the full list of free agents? If so can you post it please?
Here’s a link Eric. Happy shopping!
https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-2021-22-free-agents-by-position
Thank you Singing The Blue.
Yes Tommy Davis could have had a great long term career with the Dodgers. But like many others after a serious injury he was never the same. Now Belli had that shoulder surgery so we’ll see if he can recover and live up to his potential.
I was too young to remember 1951, but 1962 was very painful. We had a great team, Sandy finally breaking out with his first Super year, but missed 2 months with injury and ended up leading league in ERA and record was 14-7. Duke had his last hurrah as Dodger, and Tommy came thru with big hits in playoff. Some controversies still the same. Big D was ready to come in 9th inning, but Alston went with Stan Williams to blow the lead. Supposedly Duke called to Alston to say Drysdale was ready and that pissed Alston off. Next year Duke was gone
Belli was looking more like himself that series against Atlanta. I have no doubt by spring he will get back to being a positive force in the offense. In 62, Roebuck was gassed by the time the 9th inning started. And Alston waited until the Giants had scored a run before he brought in Williams who immediately imploded. Both Big D and Snider begged Alston to let Drysdale pitch. But Alston insisted that he was saving Drysdale for the opening game of the World Series, forgetting that you have to get there first. Koufax got knocked around in the first game. Both Snider and Williams were gone the next year. Snider sold to the Mets, and Williams traded to the Yankees for Bill Skowron.
I want to apologize to Bumstrap for a post I made yesterday, in case he though I was picking on him for a statement he made pointing out the Dodger’s “poor” defense by position based on ratings from Fangraphs. That wasn’t my intention. What was my intervention was to point out why I personally don’t put much stake in defensive metrics in general. My post elicited zero responses which I found odd. Maybe you missed it so I’ll post it again.
“Bum, can you coach me up on how FanGraphs measures and ranks “defense”?
Does a computer spin out rankings base on human input and subjectivity? How does it work?
* There are a pot full of defensive stats that Sabermetricians attempt to use to document defensive proficiency and compare players. It’s an acronym salad. We’ve got your basic fielding %, dWar, Range Factor, DRS, URZ, FRAA, OAA , DER……you get the picture. Each of these have their strengths and weaknesses. Just like people who like a buffet. You can pick out your favorites. I look at batting metrics far more than defensive ones. I still look at Fielding % and Range Factors, knowing full well that they may penalize guys with more range. You get to more balls, you can boot more balls. But mostly I don’t trust them because there are too many variables and subjectivity involved. Here’s my problems with defensive stats:
* Shifts now cause players to be put in positions that aren’t traditional positions. Do you ding Seager for not getting to a routine grounder to short when he’s playing behind second? How do you rate Machado’s play at third when he’s catching balls in right field? Infielders are frequently out of position compared with traditionally positioning. It isn’t a players choice as positioning is based on computerize spray charts. Some metrics are based on double plays completed. That’s all changed by shifts that eliminate middle infielders covering 2nd base on a double play ball.
* Human subjectivity is quietly ignored but it’s a huge factor that’s the elephant in the room for stat-heads. Humans still input data into a computer. Baseball Info Solutions (BIS) is a company which serves Major League Baseball teams and publishers of baseball statistics like Fan Graphs.
BIS is the leader in the collection, analysis and delivery of sports data used in all sports. There are BIS trained analysts *people” imputing data into a computer.
* Even the statisticians and analysts who develop and work with the advanced defensive metrics are constantly referring back to the empirical evidence, what they see a fielder do, as well as to his reputation (how many Gold Gloves has he won?), to check the reliability of their statistical analysis.
* If there is GPS Tech available to measure a player’s range, I’m not aware of it. I see the possibility of baseballs containing a chip and the players have a chip in their glove or on their body that could measure everything. It’s used now in football shoulder pads to measure measure everything including effort in practice. When that happens I’ll be more trusting.
* Each stat is offered on a different scale to rate good from bad. Without a glossary, I don’t know one rating from the other.
* Badger offered up a while back, an ESPN’s MLB Defensive Players Fielding Stats for 2021. One big problem I have with the ratings list like Badger offer up is validity. Bulldogs&Penguins summed it up perfectly for me when he said “If you think DRS is a useful stat, I’ve got some beachfront property in Mojave I’d like to sell you on the cheap”. Here’s a list of shortstops with a lower DRS value than Corey Seager…Fernando Tatis, Didi Gregorious, Gleyber Torres, Javier Baez, Dansby Swanson, Xander Bogaerts and Trea Turner”Cory Seager is rated 41st and Trea Turner 56th on the list. Kyle Farmer is #32. Is anybody interested in Farmer coming back as our everyday SS?
** Derek Jeter has the distinction of being the worst fielder ever measured by DRS; he accumulated -162 Defensive Runs Saved between 2003 and the end of his career. That pretty much says it all for me.
* I don’t need metrics to know if a guy can play. I use my eyes. Like the BIS uses trained people to analyze, I feel am trained too. I’m very confident in my ability to evaluate players. My training was playing shortstop from age 7 through some pro ball and 30 years of coaching the game. I can pretty much tell you after watching a player for awhile whether he’s got what it takes to be a quality defensive player I don’t need stat lists to tell me what I can see.”
I missed this post PhilJones, so here’s my reply. Even Fangraphs says you need 3 years of DRS in order to get any useful information from it (Right on their webpage in the glossary definition for the stat).
I don’t even think that’s a valid statement as a lot can change in three years. After you evaluate a player based on three years of data, he might be off the position or approaching the downward spiral of his career. It’s just completely useless.
You did a great job summing up so many faults in the system when it comes to defensive stats. I have echoed almost all those points and maybe more over the last couple of years on this site. It often falls on def ears. One point I do like to mention is how DRS is affected by official scorers who often grade a hit on an error for a home batter and vice versa for a visitor. How the hell was that ball that Lux dropped graded a hit? If it was graded an error, his DRS in Cf would have deservingly taken a big hit.
Anyways, nice job explaining all these faults to show people that it’s as useful as an A-Hole on your elbow. But, it probably won’t change the minds of most people.
When my son was playing JO’s every summer in Arizona for 6 years straight, they used to bring in Caribbean middle infielders. They all looked the part. They were flashy and would dive for everything even when they didn’t have to or had no chance at getting to the ball. When the tournament started they were the best thing since sliced bread. By the time the tournament ended they had more botched plays that their less flashy stateside counterparts are were usually riding pine in the final games. That’s DRS in a nutshell. If you look good doing it, you get more points. If you’re steady and fundamentally sound, you don’t get the extra points for pizazz.
Thanks for the comments B&P. Interesting about the “flashy” kids. It may have changed some but in the past it wasn’t uncommon with the latin players to be housed and prepped by the Biscones who made as much as 50% of any signing bonus. US scouts would show up for try outs and the youngsters were skilled at taking infield and taking BP, but didn’t know how to play the game. A lot of sizzle and no steak.
Also you made a great point on official scorers “homecooking” impacting the stats.
https://library.fangraphs.com/defense/drs/
Makes sense to me. But, I am clear on what many of you think of my opinions.
I also have watched most of the videos and highlights available for years, been to several games in Arizona, attended Spring Training, watched many games that were available on tv, and since moving back to SoCal I’ve seen nearly every game for the last two years. My eyes tell me plenty, and what I see matches what the stats tell me and that is the Dodgers are not a good defensive club. We have a few decent defensive players, but as a team, we are what the numbers say we are.
I think it’s pretty much known that most teams via their massive analytical staffs have much better analytics both for hitting and fielding than the general public does.
I remember that the Dodgers got into trouble for using a laser pointer to specifically position OF. That’s some awesome stuff.
Sadly, we will never see it and the tools at our disposal (while better then the human eye) are really lacking.
If you think about it, having to use Souza and Burns in the playoffs tell you a lot about injuries and a lack of a good bench.
Also not having a reliable fourth starting pitcher tells you a lot.
Injuries (Specifically Kershaw, Muncy, Turner, May), lack of a good enough bench, and bad luck.
If fully healthy this Dodger team could have made it to the World Series and won it.
Knowing you only have three good starters it is that much more important not to burn them in relief spots when there was no need for. Should have trusted the pen, they were lights out and did nothing to discourage the confidence of the manager.
Go dodgers!
100% correct
Did I write something inappropriate in my last post that it was erased?
Go Dodgers!
I don’t know why but spam got it.
Go figure!
Got one of mine too. Yeah, go figure.
2016–Cubs
2017–Astros
2018–Red Sox
2019–Nationals
2020–us
2021–Braves?
In the last six seasons, we have one exactly one championship, and that was with a pandemic-shortened schedule. If Atlanta wins this year, that will mean that in the five seasons in which we failed to win, the team that eliminated us will have brought home the trophy.
What does this mean? Well, for one it means we have been close, very close to a dynasty; but, with only one win among those six seasons, we are now in the same boat as the 1988 club. It takes a championship to make a legend and that’s why players like Hershiser, Gibson & Scioscia will forever be Dodger legends. Due to the hardware, I guess Seager is the legend, which makes the need to re-sign him seem that much more immediate. Urias seems like the other guy we’ll always remember. Keekay, Bellinger, Buehler, sure, but it’s hard not to focus on what they didn’t accomplish too.
Honestly, I really wanted to repeat this year just to prove to the baseball world that we are a level above everyone else. Back-to-back titles is the domain of the special teams and I thought we had one. Personally, I put a lot of blame on Dave Roberts for not getting us more than one during his tenure. 2016 I can live with, 2017 was robbery, 2018 was probably the better team that one, 2019 was a shocking early exit with some highly questionable pitching decisions, & 2021 was a lot of injuries but also some more of those debatable decisions deviating from what had gotten us so far in the regular season.
As for the trash talk on here, let’s just give it a rest. This site is already at cesspool levels of rhetoric, so why drag it lower than it already is. People comment here because they’ve been banned elsewhere, don’t like the politics of other sites, or just feel at home on the Island of Misfit Toys. I can’t promise I won’t go off again; I take zero shits from anyone in the real world and I don’t like commenters are all talk when I know they wouldn’t have a thing to say face-to-face. Mark is welcome to ban me. I could probably use the permanent vacation.
I do enjoy the prospect talk here and think the content of the minor league coverage is legitimately excellent, so I will probably find myself drawn back for that reason. Let’s just pretend there’s an ignore function and if you don’t have something productive to say, don’t open your mouth. Because nobody can get the least word on the internet; it’s not built for that. Peace
I have to take exception to the comment about “trash talk”. I don’t comment as often as I used to but try to keep the comments to baseball. Many posters here are very knowledgeable but few respond well to insults and name calling in the event of a difference of opinion.
I doubt that anyone here has been banned elsewhere or so forth. Your invective here even if no one has addressed anything toward you is uninvited and unnecessarily confrontational
I agree Rick. And I myself have lost it a few times when that kind of stuff becomes personal. And his assertion that a face to face confrontation would lead to the person not having anything to say is nothing more than an assumption on his part since he has no clue how that person really is. I myself do not back down from anything I say in person or other wise. Mark and I had a lot of harsh words for each other back in the day. But when we met face to face last month, we found we both have a lot more in common than we knew. I have met a couple of guys who have posted on blogs that I do. And they are pretty even keeled and nice people. I know I am far from the most knowledgeable poster on here, but I would put my love of the game and the Dodgers up with anyone else. I try and respect everyone’s opinion even when I might not agree with it. Doesn’t always work, and that only makes me human. I saw some people banned on another site, and back when you were allowed to post on the Dodger web page, they would regularly ban people who dissed the team. Mark is pretty fair. But sometimes posters will beat a dead horse for way too long.
blah blah blah
These are the words I hear from you every time you post. Mark warned you yesterday to conduct yourself better. You haven’t seemed to have heeded his advise.
You just proved our point.
He does not care Rudy
Although it has not been officially announced, Edwin Uceta was claimed by the Diamondbacks.
The first team that had a shot at him grabbed him. Still only 23 and had some good outings mixed in with his bad ones. AF may have figured that with various guys he has to protect from the Rule 5 this year, he wasn’t going to be able to keep Uceta anyway, but the fact that we gave him away so that we could add Andy Burns to a playoff roster probably sums up this season in a nutshell. It just wasn’t meant to be our year
Well he is already touting Knack as a guy who will make some sort of impact next season, and he was talking about Pepiot and Jackson too. The one place they are lacking at AAA is position players.
If Corey Seager really and truly wants to stay with the Dodgers he should grow a pair and tell Borass that’s what he wants and make it work or you’re history.
Why can’t he grow a pair and make the most money he can by expecting the large market Dodgers to pay him that?
I found a photo on Twitter that I thought was pretty cool. It showed some of the players on a Halloween Hayride in LA. The players were with their better halves or family. Smith, JT, Mookie, Buehler, Seager, Kelly and Taylor. What was surprising was that Taylor was clean shaven. It was hard to recognize him with out his beard.
Listened to Freidman’s interview about the 2021 season. Also read some of Plunkett’s remarks about the press conference. In regards to Kersh, he said for what the guy has meant to the organization, it would be great for him to finish his career in LA, win another championship and get a parade. But he also said that Kersh is going to do what ever is best for his family, and no matter what, the Dodgers will support that position. He said that although they game plan extensively, all in game decisions are made by Roberts and his coaches. He expects Knack, Pepiot and Jackson to be in the high minors next year and part of the team at some time during the season. Starting pitching will be addressed as will the bench. He also stated that the Dodgers are prepared in case of a lockout. He understands if some players want to wait until the new CBA is in place to sign. To me that right there signal’s that there will be few free agent signings before the new CBA is approved. He said they will look internally and externally for the pieces they feel they need to compete. So trades may be in order along with some free agents. He is open to signing all of his free agents if they want to return. As for Bauer, he said it is in the hands of MLB. When they make their decision, then the Dodgers will address his status with the media.
News from Internet:
Andrew Friedman Press Conference:
On: Next year pitching depth
“We’ve got some really good guys in place. That being said, we’re going to need to address that.” Friedman name dropped Mitch White and Andre Jackson when talking about rotation depth, and also Bobby Miller, Ryan Pepiot, and Landon Knack as guys who will start in the upper levels of the minors and could potentially reach the majors next season.
On Trevor Bauer:
Andrew Friedman said he doesn’t know the timetable of MLB’s investigation into the sexual assault allegations against Trevor Bauer. He declined to comment for now on whether Bauer will pitch for the Dodgers again or if he regrets signing Bauer.
Friedman said he’ll further address the Bauer situation when MLB’s investigation is completed and a decision is made.
On working with managers:
“We do a lot of work ahead of time…Games play out in so many different ways that it’s impossible to anticipate before, so those decisions are made in the dugout. In game, during those moments it’s 100 percent their decision. Those decisions were made in the dugout, as they should be.”
Kevin Goldstein Chat:
QUESTION: Why does it seem there is current belief that the Dodgers will be good but not great next year? Even if you exclude their current free agents their roster seems to be capable of winning 100+ games.
Kevin Goldstein: Agreed.
QUESTION: What was wrong with me in game 5?
Kevin Goldstein: The playoffs are hard. The Dodgers lineup is really good.
QUESTION:Aaron Boone gets a lot of hate from Yankees fans (I think he’s solid). Question: how do teams evaluate managers? Obviously they watch the games and have a sense of how the in-game stuff works/doesn’t, but are there other elements (interviews with players, ability to work with analytics department, etc.) that are used?
Kevin Goldstein: Yeah, I think it’s nearly impossible to evaluate a manager from the outside. The most important part of a manager’s job is getting the best possible performance from his players. Any number of factors go into that equation that we can’t see from our vantage point.
QUESTION: Robo-ump strike zone 2023 …. likely or too soon?
Kevin Goldstein: I think it will take longer than that. The tech just isn’t ready for prime time.
QUESTION: What will be the biggest hurdle in the CBA talks?
Kevin Goldstein: Money, right? More specifically arbitration and free agency timing.
QUESTION: At what point is firing Dave Roberts justifiable? Obviously he’s had remarkable success but, as unfair as it might be, one World Series title (in a weirdo season at that) is pretty clearly an underperformance compared to expectations, and the number of questionable-to-obviously-wrong postseason decisions balloons every wear.
Kevin Goldstein: We just don’t know how much of those decisions are his, and how many were templates from the front office that he followed. Manager always takes the blame, but doesn’t always deserve it.
QUESTION: Kevin: On that robo-ump question, if we can all basically see balls/strikes really well on our TVs home with those strike zone boxes (I’m assuming this is true, maybe it isn’t), why is it so hard to implement this on the field?
Kevin Goldstein: [Whispers] Those strike zone boxes aren’t nearly as accurate as they’d like you to believe….
QUESTION: Who gets more this off-season, Carlos Correa, or Corey Seager?
Kevin Goldstein: Correa.
QUESTION: I know you think the Yankees should sign Correa…why him over Seager (and I realize we’re kind of splitting hairs)?
Kevin Goldstein: I don’t think we’re splitting hairs. Correa is the better player, and a MUCH better defender.
QUESTION: Do the Dodgers let Seager walk and install Lux in the MI, or do they break out the checkbook?
Kevin Goldstein: I mean . . . ‘let him walk’ is a weird phrase here. He’s a free agent, and he’s going to talk to other teams. Walking or not is partially up to him as well.
QUESTION: Corey Seager’s baserunning and defensive numbers were pretty poor this year, but in the past they were better; just a one-year blip, or do you foresee continued poor showings in these aspects of his game? Is he destined for 3B or 2B?
Kevin Goldstein: I think in terms of defense, Seager is a 40-45 SS, and it’s really the big separator between him and Correa. VERY big separator.
Baseball America on Landon Knack: ($$$$)
https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/arizona-fall-league-prospect-report-october-22-2021/
Landon Knack, RHP, Dodgers — …The righthander whiffed six and walked nobody but still allowed three runs (all earned) over 2.2 innings. He distributed his strikeouts among all of his pitches, including three on four-seam fastballs, two on curves and one on a changeup….
FanGraphs on Dave Roberts
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/postseason-managerial-report-card-dave-roberts/
BEN CLEMENS CHAT
QUESTION: Fill in the blank: Corey Seager is a top _ shortstop if he can keep his defense near average.
Ben Clemens: 5? There are a lot of great shortstops in baseball today
QUESTION: Do you find the current narrative of the Dodgers demise as a elite ball club next year to be greatly over-exaggerated? Even with all of their free agents isn’t there roster still top 3 in baseball?
Ben Clemens: Oh yeah it’s wild. If we drafted WS winners next year. Without knowing anything about the offseason
The Dodgers are a windmill slam first pick
QUESTION: Do you think the Dodgers move Bellinger to try and re-sign some critical guys or roll the dice he bounces back? If they move him, what type of return are they looking at in addition to the team absorbing his salary?
Ben Clemens: I do not, because I think that he’s far from an obviously enticing trade chip. I think they’d get a very scant return if they traded him and didn’t want to eat his salary; he has only two years left until free agency, both at around $20 million, and the bat is just such a question mark. Steamer projects him as a 113 wRC+ hitter in 2022, which is a nice player in CF but not a huge bargain at that contract. I think you could talk yourself up or down, but if the Dodgers are shopping him, they clearly don’t believe he’s bouncing back, so the teams buying will be cognizant of that…
Matt Eddy on the Historic run the Dodgers are on: ($$$$)
https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/dodgers-on-historic-four-year-run-of-excellence/
A roller derby team is suing Cleveland over the use of the name Guardians….wow….
I think these guys also own the rights to the website clevelandguardians.com. They could make a decent piece of change from this.
Wow that’s amazing. I remember the guardians I used to watch the LA Tbird’s in the late 50s early 60s. Haven’t thought about roller derby in years in years
Roller derby went out of business along time ago didn’t it?
I quit watching it when I was around 12 years old realizing it was just wrestling on rollerskates
Ralphie Valladares was pretty acrobatic though
Oh I almost forgot thanks Bear for the rite up
I loved watching 3 Dog glide through the outfield and steal bases. He was one of my favorites. I love Tommy too ,but he just wasn’t there long enough
I hope Seattle doesn’t lose their name, If the merchant Marines
get pissed
I remember Red Smart on those T-Bird teams. Who was the KTLA announcer for them?
Dick Lane.
Dick Lane. Lane was also an actor and in a lot of B movies, and he was the announcer for Wednesday night wrestling from the Olympic Auditorium. Which is now a Korean Church, They used to call him ” Oh Nelly” Dick Lane because that was his catch phrase. True story, when I was in basic training at Ft.Bliss in Dec of 1965, one of the trainees in our battalion was Johnny Crawford from the Rifleman. Another was this huge black guy, he was well over 6 foot 5. It was George Copeland, he used to skate for the T-Birds. Red Smart and Valladares are both in the roller derby hall of fame.
Article on the Dodgers Slider!
It’s great.
It’s $$$$
https://theathletic.com/2900028/2021/10/20/is-there-a-such-a-thing-as-a-dodgers-slider/
And, Dodgers executive Brandon Gomes is not going to join the Mets front office. Gomes, a fast riser after retiring recently, is expected to get a promotion with the Dodgers.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Pretty soon all teams will have to be called “[City Name] Baseball Team” because everyone is offended about everything. It weird how a clearly derogatory term like “The Yankees” gets a pass.
Like I said earlier, you can cry and complain or you can own it, like the fans of the Italian National Soccer Team.
Are those the only two options?
There’s a difference between an ethnic group making fun of themselves and an ethnic group making fun of another.
Seems to me a team naming themselves after a group of people is showing reverence to that group not making fun of them.
Read an article today: Indians are fine with the name the Braves. They are not pleased with the chop. Like Badger said, people should listen.
I think this is a generally reasonable position by Native Americans. It just comes at a time where grievance, finding offense over trivialities, or just accumulating victim points is a national obsession. A healthy culture is one where we can laugh at ourselves and even laugh at others and not take things so seriously.
When you remove references in popular culture to protected groups, what actually happens is that protected group gets erased to some degree.
The Tomahawk Chop chant is just a dumb facsimile of what popular culture interprets an authentic war song to be, but couldn’t it rather be a “teachable moment.” It could be an opportunity to, rather than call for it to be banned outright, use it as an opportunity to teach the larger public the history behind Native American war songs. That cultural memory should be preserved.
https://youtu.be/gt9Bor3_XFk
What was the purpose of that video?
Amanda Blackhorse told the Daily Beast earlier this year – accurately – that “Native people have been calling for the end of the Tomahawk Chop for decades. This is not something new.”
https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2019/10/8/20903421/atlanta-braves-tomahawk-chop-racist-chief-wahoo-mlb-lds
“A few tribes came out to say the Tomahawk Chop is racist? Well, of course they did. Anything to fuel the fire of racism is en-vogue today. Sorry, but not sorry about this feigned outrage.” A Dodger blogger
Again, I think it’s important to take this seriously. Obviously people are offended. Don’t assume it’s “feigned outrage”. Hear them out and respect their voices.
What do you think the purpose of me posting the video was? Do you think I’m trying to denigrate NAs or make some sort of equivalency to the Chop? Am I culturally appropriating Native American culture?
We should certainly respect their point of view. There is an epidemic of feigned outrage. Not that this is, but not every grievance claim needs to be taken seriously.
“clearly derogatory term like the Yankees”?
huh?
Agree 100% MP.
These issues are real for large groups of American citizens. I think we should listen.
Did a post of mine disappear?
Probably. One of mine did. Spam trap is on steroids.
Same here.
Might we get back to talking about the weather?
I got an email to approve a post, but I can no longer log into the start up page to write stories or approve a post. The post had a lot of info about Freidman’s press conference. I am pretty sure Mark will go in and check to see which posts are hung up.
It’s nice here in SoCal. How about where you are Fred?
How’s the game going? Anybody watching? Not much is going to happen until this series is over. I hope it ends soon. A sweep would be fine with me.
Astros winning 7-2 in the 8th. Not watching but saw the score when I checked ESPN for the Laker score. They got beat by OKC, 2-3 on the season now. James missed his second straight game. Mets getting jobbed everywhere they try and find a new GM. Jays denied them permission to talk to Shapiro. Windy as hell here. Snow maybe in the weekend forecast. Stros got 5 runs off of Fried.
There was a link on ESPN to a page called New Arena and they rated all of the managers from worst to first. Obviously this poll was taken before this season started. But a couple of the ratings kind of stood out to me. Kapler was rated 26th in the league . Pirates, Orioles, Mets and Mariners managers were the only ones rated worse than him. Cora was number 6. Roberts was # 2. And the best manager was Francona.
Kapler 26th? Nope. Roberts 2nd? Ok.
New Arena. I wonder who they are?
Here’s a stupid article written about how the Tomahawk Chop is racist…
https://www.newsbreak.com/news/2416464220669/if-you-can-t-see-the-braves-tomahawk-chop-is-racist-chances-are-you-re-drowning-in-white-privilege
I’d like to point out the title “If You Can’t See The Braves’ Tomahawk Chop Is Racist, Chances Are You’re Drowning In White Privilege”
Here’s a link to the Author’s other articles…
https://newsone.com/author/ronebmorris/
You’ll notice that he takes the far left stand on everything, so he’s just a propaganda pusher. Every article is about race or Vax.
In the article, it says that 2 tribes say the Chop is racist. He also states “If one Native American is offended by the chop, that is all it should take for changes to be made.”
As I said earlier, I’m Italian so I will use a simple Italian stereotype to illustrate this issue.
https://www.google.com/search?q=italians+pineapple+pizza&sxsrf=AOaemvIZLjwghefuH72S0JDONR9CWCm0WQ%3A1635426133583&source=hp&ei=VZ96YaP2H8PY-wShlLL4Aw&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYXqtZeOVdSGDISE340lOMa-qT_ibOCbM&ved=0ahUKEwjj9PqNle3zAhVD7J4KHSGKDD8Q4dUDCAk&uact=5&oq=italians+pineapple+pizza&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6EAguEMcBEK8BEOoCECcQkwI6DQguEMcBEK8BEOoCECc6DQguEMcBEKMCEOoCECc6BwguEOoCECc6BwgjEOoCECdQuxVYuxVgwxhoAXAAeACAAVaIAVaSAQExmAEAoAECoAEBsAEK&sclient=gws-wiz
The search result will show that Pineapple on Pizza is offensive to Italians. Therefore, Pineapple should be banned on Pizza? That’s the same argument you’re making about the Tomahawk chop.
There are close to 1000 Native American tribes in the US and just two are making noise about the Tomahawk chop.
If you had any kind of reasoning skills you would know that you can’t have a society that bans everything that’s offensive to some people. Nothing would be left.
As a matter of fact, everyone on this site has posted something offensive to someone. Therefore everyone should be banned? There would be no comments.
Badger, your skin is white, mine is brown. Therefore my voice counts more than yours. That’s how you view things correct?
Hey Mike…I didn’t think that you would write those biographies so soon. Great job…worthy of compensation and a copyright…Michael Norris is just a good person to know and have on your side.
The only poster on my bedroom wall as a young kid was…Willie Davis. When, I played Little League, Colt, High School etc…had to wear #3. But, it made no difference…I was still a SMO…That’s what the assistant coach at the local University called me…A Slow Moving Object. When I was about 5 or 6. I used to ask my Dad if Willie and Tommy were brothers. He would say …”No, the just had the same last name.” In reality Willie had a brother in Arkansas named Tommy. Tommy Davis had a book out at one time…I have it…”Tommy Davis…Tales From the Dodger Dugout.” According to Tommy…or it could have been Don Drysdale (need recheck my sources) Tommy Davis and Maury Wills had an ongoing fued…That almost got physical.
The original definition of racism…like sexism, is the notion that one race of people or gender is superior to another…The tomahawk chop is a mockery. It’s not racist. Sometimes, imitation is a sincere form of flattery. I am an American of German and Mexican descent. My DNA results say that I am 14% of an Indgenous tribe in Sonora/Sinaloa…Not offended…The Spanish conquerors, at the time, didn’t give us time to make hand-held axes.