NOTE: I told you Rob Schelling aka/2demter2 would be back – little did I know how soon!— Mark Timmons
Gamer: A player who approaches the game with a tenacious, spirited attack and continues to play even when hurt; a competitor; a player who doesn’t make excuses. The term is a compliment, most especially when it comes from another player.
Goat: one blamed for causing a failure or defeat, esp. in a team sports competition.
Bill Buckner was, by all accounts, the epitome of a gamer. He had a fiery temper and approached the game with great intensity. As Jeff English wrote “Buckner detested strikeouts, which he considered failure. In nine different seasons he ranked either first or second in his league in at-bats per strikeout.” Walter Alston once said of Buckner, “He gets the red neck a lot, but I sort of like that.” At times, Billy Buckner was seemingly held together by duct tape – but he went out there any ways and played his heart out. He played well and he played hurt, more often than not he played hurt. He suffered a severe ankle injury in 1975, from which he never recovered. From then on, he played with a walker (not really). Chicago Cubs manager Herman Franks once remarked, “You should see this guy getting ready for a game. He rides that bike in there and does all kind of exercises. Then he goes in, and Tony (trainer Garofalo) tapes him from here to here.”
Columnist Dick Young once called Buckner “one of the guttiest players around today. He plays with a bad ankle, takes aspirin and steals a base.” Buckner, sans the gambling, patterned himself after Pete Rose. He would regularly sacrifice his body for the opportunity to play winning baseball. Some have suggested that but for his ankle injury, Buckner could have had a career worthy of Hall of Fame consideration. He was, without a doubt, one of the purest hitters of his generation, topping the .300 mark in seven different seasons
Buckner was a gamer! Buckner’s career touched four decades. He made his debut with the Dodgers in 1969 and played his final game for the Red Sox in 1990. He spent his first eight seasons with the Dodgers and eight more with the Chicago Cubs. He won the National League batting title in 1980 and made the All-Star team in 1981. Buckner led the National League in doubles in 1981 and 1983. Buckner finished his career with 2,715 major league hits, only 65 players in major league history have more. From 1977 to 1982, he averaged only 21 strikeouts a season and he never struck out more than 39 times in any season that he played. Talk about a contact hitter! Many modern players strike out that often in a month, let alone an entire season.
Despite his fine career, Buckner is remembered as one of the most notorious goats in the history of American sports. All because of a single play, one moment in time, that occurred on October 25, 1986, in the 10th inning of the sixth game of the World Series against the New York Mets. Thereafter, his last name became synonymous with “you blew it.” I’m of the mind that perhaps Kevin Cash can identify with Buckner in a very intimate way. Cash has been a wonderful manager for his 6 years at the helm of the Tampa Bay Rays, respected and loved by his players and the Rays’ fans. But, for the foreseeable future, he’s going to be known for pulling Blake Snell from game 6 of the World Series. A move many have panned as the cause of the Rays losing game 6. As I expound a little later herein, I believe that Buckner’s label as a “goat” is unfair and he should be remembered for a great deal more than that one solitary play.
William Joseph Buckner was born to Leonard and Marie Buckner on December 14, 1949, in Vallejo, California. He was raised in American Canyon, California, which is a community in Napa County, with his three siblings, brothers Bob and Jim, and Jim’s twin sister, Jan. His father died when Bill was a teenager. His mother worked for more than 20 years as a captain’s stenographer for the California Highway Patrol, and it was she that saw to it that the Buckner kids found their way into organized baseball. While attending a Cub Scout mothers meeting, she signed her boys up for Little League. “I thought it would keep them busy and out of trouble,” she recalled. “So they signed up.” Billy was a natural athlete, and advanced for his age. As a seven-year-old, Marie falsified his birth certificate in order to get him into Little League a year early. He excelled from the beginning.
Buckner attended Napa High School and starred both as a football and baseball player. As a pass-catching end, he caught 61 passes good for 963 yards. He was named to the Coaches All-American team two years in a row. But he really excelled at baseball. As a first baseman on the baseball team, he hit a whopping .667 in 1967 and .529 in ’68. Recalling high school, Buckner stated, “I was very goal-oriented. I was going to go to school and college, play sports, and go on to professional baseball. I didn’t spend a lot of time doing nothing.” Buckner was also very strong academically and wanted to attend college. His college choices came down to USC(this should make Jeff happy!) and Stanford. But, before he could commit to a college he began to attract the attention of major league scouts. Former New York Yankees second baseman and California Angels scout Joe Gordon recalled that Buckner “had the finest swing I saw anywhere on the West Coast, and probably is one of the best young hitters in baseball with his compact swing and power to all fields. He seems to have complete control of his bat and his body.”
Despite his desire to go to college, that endeavor would have to wait, because the Dodgers selected Buckner in the second round (with the 25th overall pick) of the June 1968 amateur draft. That Dodgers’ 1968 has been rated the best draft class of all time, with no other team’s draft coming in a close second. Besides Buckner, drafted that year were Ron Cey, Steve Garvey, Davey Lopes, Tom Paciorek, Bobby Valentine, Doyle Alexander, Geoff Zahn and Joe Ferguson. These players combined for a total of 234.8 WAR. What a class!! The Dodgers’ 2016 draft, as good as it appears to be, has a long ways to go before it can compare to this class.
In 1968, Buckner started his professional career with the Ogden Dodgers in the rookie-class Pioneer League. His manager was Tommy Lasorda. Buckner, who played every game at first base, hit .344 average, with 4 homeruns and 41 RBI. He also stole 15 bases in 16 attempts. Buckner, Garvey(.338) and Paciorek(.327), finished 1-2-3 in league batting average leaders. It’s no wonder that Ogden had the best won-loss record in the league that year.
Buckner began the 1969 season at Double-A Albuquerque, where he batted .307 in 70 games. In July he was promoted to Triple-A Spokane to replace first baseman Tommy Hutton, who had been called up by the Dodgers to fill in for the injured Wes Parker. There he hit .315 mark in 36 games. This led to Buckner receiving a September call-up to Los Angeles. On September 21st Buckner got his first major league at-bat against Gaylord Perry. He popped out to the second baseman. That was his lone appearance for the Dodgers that season. After the 1969 season, Buckner participated in the Arizona Instructional League, where he batted .350 with 10 stolen bases in 46 games. He also spent time improving his skills as an outfielder.
In 1970, Buckner was expected to compete for a roster spot with the Dodgers. Dodgers manager Walter Alston suggested, “It’s possible Bill could be our starting left fielder. He’ll certainly get a good look in the spring.” Buckner, who never lacked in confidence, responded by saying, “I think I can hit .300 in the majors. I know I’m a better hitter right now than some who have been playing there.” Some within the Dodgers organization were urging Alston to commit to playing Buckner. Scout Goldie Holt told club vice president Al Campanis, “Buckner has so much ability and is so far advanced that I would put him in left field and leave him there against all kinds of pitching.” Holt wasn’t the only one who predicted big things for Buckner. When the Dodgers traveled to Pompano Beach to play the Washington Senators in a spring training match-up, the Dodgers’ batting practice turned into a hitting clinic of sorts as players and coaches gathered around Washington manager Ted Williams. After watching Buckner take some swings in the batting cage, Williams remarked, “You don’t have to worry. You’re going to be an excellent hitter one of these days.” He predicted that Buckner would eventually win a batting title. Coming from Ted Williams that is worthy praise indeed!!
That spring, Buckner would win the Dearie Mulvey Memorial Award, given annually to the Dodgers’ outstanding rookie of the spring. Buckner hit .303 in 19 games with a club-leading five doubles and five stolen bases. He didn’t commit an error in the field, and as was his habit, he didn’t strike out a single time.
He made the roster out of spring training, as the starting left-fielder. However, he struggled and after 14 games was hitting a meager .121. As a result he, along with Steve Garvey, were optioned back to Spokane. Buckner opted not to immediately report to Spokane because he wanted to complete his semester of college courses at Southern California. Although his decision was questioned by Al Campanis, Buckner was given permission to attended his classes. do that and didn’t report to Spokane for over 3 weeks. Once Buckner arrived at Spokane, he wasted little time. He had seven hits in his first nine at-bats. Unfortunately, he then suffered a broken jaw in a collision with teammates Davey Lopes and Bobby Valentine. He played two games before x-rays revealed the fracture. Recalling the injury, Spokane manager Tommy Lasorda said, “Buck broke his jaw and the front office told me to sit him out for five weeks. Buckner missed only one game and wound up hitting .335 and learned to spit and swear with his jaw wired shut.” He ended up hitting .335 for the year and received another call-up to the Dodgers in September and batted .257 in 14 games.
Buckner stuck with the Dodgers as an outfielder out of spring training in 1971. Buckner and some of the other young Dodgers batters faded late in the season. He would end with a .277 batting average in 108 games, as the Dodgers placed second in the National League West behind the Giants. Despite the end of the season fade, Buckner was selected as an outfielder on the Topps Rookie All-Star Team. Also, San Francisco Giants manager Charlie Fox had this to say about Buckner, “I think his position eventually will be first base, and I’d like to have him right now to fill in there when we needed him. He’s going to be quite a hitter.”
1972 was a better year for Buckner, as he hit .319 in 105 games. He split time between left field and first base that year, and many thought he would be the replacement for the retiring Wes Parker the next year.
However, in 1973, as a 24 year old, Buckner again split time at first and in the outfield, as Steve Garvey began to get more and more time at 1st base. He finished the season hitting .275.
in 1974, Buckner enjoyed his year for the Dodgers. He hit .314 for the season. He also had a Cody Bellinger level year in the field, making play after play in the outfield, including several highlight-reel-quality catches. This prompted te Sporting News to note, “Even more impressive than Buckner’s hitting has been his fielding. The left fielder has made five brilliant catches.” Buckner would receive some consideration for MVP that year. Dodgers pitcher Don Sutton said of Buckner, “And Buckner. Wow! If he doesn’t get some votes – I mean a lot of votes – it’s an injustice. He’s made so many unbelievable catches out in left field we’re starting to take him for granted.” Buckner ended up finishing 25th in the voting.
The Dodgers won 102 games that year and beat the Pittsburgh Pirates in the playoffs to advance to the World Series against the two-time defending World Series champion Oakland A’s. Unwittingly, Buckner provided some unneeded motivation for the A’s when in an interview with the San Francisco Examiner, Buckner stated that he thought the A’s were an inferior ball club. The article quoted Buckner as saying, “I definitely think we have a better ball club than they do. The A’s have only a couple of players who could play on our club. Reggie Jackson is outstanding. Sal Bando and Joe Rudi are good and they have a good pitching staff. Other than that … I think if we played them 162 times, we could beat them 100.”
Owner Charlie Finley called a team meeting before Game 4 of the Series and read this article to his team. Oakland won Game Four – 5-2. In game 5, trailing 3-2 in the 8th inning, Buckner lined a hit to center, but was thrown out trying to stretch into a triple. Not only eliminating a late-inning opportunity for a scoring rally, he broke several baseball cardinal rules. However, Buckner made no apologies for the play, noting, “It was something I did all year and I’ll do it again. I can’t stop taking chances because I got caught once.” Dodgers manager Walter Alston agreed, calling it “one of those plays. If you make it, it’s a great play. If you don’t, it’s a bad play. We let our players go all season. We want them to play aggressively. Bill just ran into two great throws, a perfect throw from the outfield and a perfect throw from the relay man.” The A’s, with only “a couple of players” who could play on the Dodgers, clinched their third straight World Series title with a 3-2 victory.
Buckner really hoped to build upon his successful 1974 season in 1975. Unfortunately, it was not meant to be. Buckner suffered a severely sprained left ankle sliding into second base against the Giants on April 18. He did not return to playing action until May 16th. He was still hampered by the injury when he returned, going hitless in 8 of his first 9 games back. His ankle never healed, and he also suffered from a pulled thigh muscle. Nevertheless, he remained in the lineup. Because of the injuries, Buckner was unable to get any bunt hits, or beat out infield grounders as before. As a result, he would only hit.243 in a limited 92 games. He was finally placed on the injured list in August and had ankle surgery on September 1.
Despite the fact that he was the subject of many trade rumors during the off-season, Buckner returned to the Dodgers in 1976 and had a good season. As the starting left fielder, Buckner would play in 154 games, hit .301 and set a new career high with 60 runs driven in. He also worked on being able to get bunt hits and beat out infield grounders. As Buckner put it, “I figured I could hold my breath four seconds,” At end of the season, he once again underwent surgery on his left ankle.
That off-season, the Dodgers traded Buckner, shortstop Ivan de Jesus, and minor-league pitcher Jeff Albert to the Chicago Cubs for outfielder Rick Monday and pitcher Mike Garman. Initially Buckner was furious and bitter, but eventually warmed to the idea. Of the trade, he said, “Sure, I’ll miss the Dodgers. And I’ll miss Tommy Lasorda. Lasorda raised me up. I even played for him when he was managing in the minors. I was looking forward to playing for him in his first year as the Dodger manager. At least I know this: The Cubs wanted me. The Dodgers didn’t.” This was one of those good baseball trades that worked out well for both teams.
Buckner would spend the next 8 years with the Cubs, and they were probably his best 8 years, as he really blossomed as a hitter. He never healed from his ankle injury, but during that 8 year period, he would hit .300, winning the batting title in 1980, with a .324 average. In 1981, Buckner hit .311 and in 1982, he hit .306, with a career high 105 RBI. After the 1982 season, Buckner was once again the subject of trade rumors, some of which were of his own doing, as he became increasingly dissatisfied playing for the losing Cubs.
In 1983, Buckner was still with the Cubs and hit 280 with a league-leading 38 doubles. However, his role with the Cubs for 984 was more and more uncertain. Once again, he endured another off-season of constant trade rumors. In 1984, he opened the season as the Cubs’ starting as the first baseman. The trade rumors continued to swirl, and he was soon benched in favor of Leon Durham. It didn’t matter that the Cubs’ fans were decidedly in Buckner’s camp, management wasn’t and on May 25th Buckner was traded to the Boston Red Sox for pitcher Dennis Eckersley and outfielder Mike Brumley. Yet another trade that worked out fairly well for both teams.
Buckner was ecstatic to go to the Red Sox. He would play in Boston for 3½ seasons before being released in July 1987. His first three seasons, despite being hobbled due to his injuries, Buckner performed well. In 1984, after the trade from Chicago, Buckner hit .278 average, with 11 home runs, and 67 RBI in 114 games. At the conclusion of that season, he underwent surgery to remove bone fragments from his left elbow. In 1985, Buckner batted .299 with a career-high 110 runs batted in. He also had 201 hits, which broke Jimmie Foxx’s 49-year-old franchise record for hits in a season by a first baseman. In 1986, despite constant discomfort from bone spurs in his left ankle, Buckner hit .267, with a career high 18 home runs, and 102 RBI. The Red Sox won the pennant that year, and beat the Angels in dramatic fashion to advance to the World Series against the New York Mets.
In the Series, the Red Sox held a 3-2 game lead, and the Red Sox enjoyed a 3-2 lead in the 8 inning, behind a 7 inning gem from Roger Clemens. Playoffs being what they are, Calvin Shiraldi gave up the tying run in the bottom of the 8th inning. The Red Sox scored two runs in the top of the tenth, but the bullpen could not hold the lead. Calvin Shiraldi gave up 3 straight hits to give up a run. He was pulled in favor of Bob Stanley, after 2 outs and with runners on 1st and 3rd. Stanley promptly uncorked a wild pitch, that let the tying run score and advanced Ray Knight to second base. Mookie Wilson was now the hitter, after several foul balls we had “the play.” Wilson would hit a grounder to first. “Behind the bag!” Vin Scully cried on the television broadcast. “It gets through Buckner!” Knight would score the winning run and 2 days later, the Mets would beat the Red Sox in game 7.
“The play,” however, became one of the most famous in baseball history. For Buckner, it became a moment of infamy he learned to live with, weathering discontent in Boston and a series of death threats.
In the aftermath of the error, the particulars were obscured. Buckner was playing on weary, damaged, 36-year-old legs. Then-Boston manager John McNamara had neglected to replace Buckner in the field with Dave Stapleton, as he had earlier in the series. And the Red Sox were only in this position because their pitchers had melted down, with Bob Stanley uncorking a game-tying wild pitch moments earlier.
No matter. It was Buckner who bore the brunt of the criticism. The headline in the Boston Herald the next morning read, “Buckner Boots Big Grounder.” As far as Boston fans were concerned, it was Buckner’s error that allowed the “Bambino’s Curse” to remain intact. For Buckner, it marked the beginning of near-constant criticism, heckling, and abuse. His name became synonymous with the derisive term “goat,” and the error was destined to be replayed on television ad nauseam. More than a decade later, Buckner remarked, “I’ll be seeing clips of this thing until the day I die. I accept that. On the other hand, I’ll never understand why.” Even though baseball experts acknowledged that Buckner’s error was only one of several mistakes, the blame remained on Buckner’s shoulders.
The Red Sox released him midway through the 1987 season. When he was released, Red Sox manager John McNamara acknowledged how difficult the decision was, “He has been one of the most competitive people I’ve ever been associated with. It wasn’t easy for him to get ready to play, but he had a tolerance for pain and did a great job for us. It was a difficult decision. There was a lot of sentiment involved.” Thereafter he spent time with the Angels and the Kansas City Royals before finishing his career in Boston.
On April 8, 2008, Bill Buckner returned to Fenway Park to throw out the first pitch at Boston’s home opener. The club was celebrating its 2007 World Series title, and Buckner received a four-minute standing ovation. After the game, an emotional Buckner reflected on the day’s events, saying “[It was] probably about as emotional as it could get. A lot of thoughts [were] going through my mind. I wish I didn’t have to walk all the way from left field, too many things. But just good thoughts, which is a nice thing. I really had to forgive, not the fans of Boston, per se, but in my heart, I had to forgive the media for what they put me and my family through. I’ve done that, and I’m over that and I’m just happy.” The Boston fans not only forgave Buckner, but accepted him back with open arms. Buckner too forgave them. “In my heart, I had to forgive the media for what they put me and my family through,” Buckner said after he made his pitch at Fenway Park. “I’ve done that. I’m over that. I just try to think of the positives, the happy things, the friendships.”
Billy Buckner died on May 27, 2019, in Boise , Idaho, after a long battle with Lewy body dementia. He was 69 years old. A few years prior to his death, Buckner in an interview with USA Today, had this to say: “Life is a lot of hard knocks. There are a lot worse things happening than losing a baseball game or making an error, so it puts things in perspective. You learn forgiveness, patience — all the things you have to do to survive.” Media and fans alike could take those comments to heart. We can be passionate about our teams, but a man’s legacy is not determined by a single moment in time in a game. Billy Buckner is a testament to that notion. He was, and will always remain, the epitome of a true “gamer.”
SOME RANDOM “WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS THOUGHTS”:
● Alex Wood’s performance in game six was stellar. I know he probably won’t return to the Dodgers next year, but was among his best performances as a Dodger.
● Likewise, Dylan Floro striking out Randy Arozarena on three pitches, was huge. It helped in turning the games’ momentum. I don’t imagine he’s had a bigger strikeout in his career.
● I “forgive” Max Muncy for having a sub-par year. He came to play in the WS, and performed as well could be expected.
● The Dodgers beleaguered bullpen clearly out pitched the highly praised Rays’ bullpen.
● Julio Urias was so cool and composed during the playoffs. He’s a pitching stud in the making! I would not be opposed to having him enter the game in the second inning and finish games out.
● The post game embrace between Kershaw and Roberts was a highlight of the celebration for me. Roberts telling him that “I’m so very happy for you!” brought tears to my eyes. Some questionable decision making aside, this symbolized what makes Roberts such a great manager in my opinion.
● Kershaw’s post game interview also showed that he is not only a future hall of fame pitcher, but he is a hall of fame man.
● While I have no complaints over his decision to pull Snell, I do feel sorry for Kevin Cash as to how it worked out.
● I guess we can finally put to bed the notion that Corey Seager can’t perform in the playoffs. What do you think?
● Fans can be so fickle. One day we’re ready to enshrine Will Smith in the Hall of Fame, the next he can barely carry Austin Barnes’ jock strap.
● I’m hoping that Bellinger’s struggles were merely the result of this being an even year. Perhaps in 2021, he’ll return to his monstrous ways of hitting the ball.
● Thank you Joc, Kike and Baez for what you meant to this team over the past years. While I would hate to see you move on, I don’t expect the three of you will return next year.
Rob, Great blog on Billy Buckner – he was always one of my favorites.
Thanks for taking the time. Robin Williams had the same thing Buckner died of!
Dodgers’ Mookie Betts, Kiké Hernandez win Fielding Bible Awards:
https://www.dailynews.com/2020/10/29/dodgers-mookie-betts-kike-hernandez-win-fielding-bible-awards/
I remember when some fans used berate Kike’s defense. In the article they wrote this:
The versatile Hernández, a first-time award winner, was the multi-position choice. He saved an MLB-high nine runs at second base, made three starts in right field, three starts in center field, two starts in left field, two starts at shortstop, and played seven innings at first base. He is arguably the Dodgers’ best defensive player at several positions and helped the team to the best regular-season record in the majors.
The Dodgers will miss Kike if he leaves, which is why I give it a 50/50 chance!
BTW, no fever or sweats yesterday. It was by far, my best day. I did some work in the garage and yard and some shopping. I am so eleted!
Beautiful piece 2d.
Everyone who saw him play has a Buckner story. I saw him slide head first into the wall down the left field foul line. But my favorite Buckner story is not that one.
For those who may have heard it, bear with me please.
I was playing my first game for the Sutter Home Classics in Napa in 1997. We were on the beautiful old field at St Helena Veterans Home in the center of Napa Valley. What a setting. I was sitting on the bench with the player manager, a friend and neighbor of mine named Diz. I was just taking it all in as it was my first year with the team, an Over 30 MABL team, and a good one. Redwood Empire League Champions 2 years running. I was 49, the oldest guy on the field and I was reminiscing about the old fields I had played on in Orange County similar to this one and I casually said to Diz “I wonder how many Major Leaguers might have played on this field”. Diz paused a moment then said “I know of one. See that building out there?” and he pointed to a maintenance shed beyond the right field fence. “I was sitting right here when Bill Buckner hit a line drive over that building in an American Legion game. We were teammates.” That shed was a good 30-40’ beyond the wall in straight away right, so the building was about 400’ from home plate. He said when he hit it sounded like a shotgun blast and nobody in the park spoke as Buckner rounded the bases. Dead silence. One of those moments frozen in time. I could tell by the tone in his voice as he stared at the shed he was reliving it and it was clearly a moving memory for him. I told him I lived and worked in the LA area when Buckner played there and he was one of my favorite players. He then told me a few quick stories of what it was like to grow up playing ball with Bill Buckner. Football and baseball. They were even interested in the same girl but it was no contest. Buckner was a 17 year old god in Napa Valley in the 60’s. He could do whatever he wanted to do, in school and on both football and baseball fields. Everything came easy to Bill Buckner. He got A’s without even trying, he was in a class all by himself on the athletic fields and every girl in the valley loved him. He told me Buckner ran by every player on the football field as if he was a man playing with children. He said he hit .700 his senior year and did it hitting balls out of the strike zone because nobody would pitch to him. I will never forget that day and those few minutes talking with someone who grew up watching Buckner as a young kid.
In Orange County I played on fields that many old greats in the 30’s and 40’s played on. DiMaggio, Ruth, Gehrig, Walter Johnson, Honus Wagner, and others, played at one time in Orange County. On that day in St Helena I flied out to right, just about 150’ short of where Buckner hit his over the shed. Missed it by that much. Being on the same fields years later were moving moments for me.
I know who Bill Buckner was and his legacy is not one bad hop grounder between two old legs. Bill Buckner is a legend. If not for injuries, he would be in the Hall with those other names. He remains to this day one of my favorite Dodger players.
Thank you for the story Badger.
I could have written a novel just on his high school exploits.
Thanks for the article Rob. It is well done.
I lived in Napa for about 5 years, played a lot of baseball and softball there. The old timers knew him well, and he remains a legend there. I’d like to have known him. Those I met who did really admired the guy. He was an intense competitor that was apparently fun to be around.
And yet when you look up “warning track power” in the dictionary you see a picture of Bill Buckner.
I just posted a comment, edited it, and it disappeared.
Did I delete it?
It was in SPAM for some strange reason!
It happens. If you ever lose a comment, do what Badger just did and we will find it.
There is no conspiracy. Some comments are held “in moderation”at times… just software glitches.
Top notch piece on Billy Bucks! Thank you.
This will be a very interesting off-season, not only for the Dodgers but all of MLB (and the minors). I might add — Dave Roberts clearly out-managed Kevin Cash in the WS, and did a great job getting the Dodgers through post season.
Bill Buckner was just 285 hits shy of 3,000 even with all his horrific injuries.
He is #66 All-Time in Hits!
Of all the players in the HOF, only 51 have more hits than Billy!
Of course, hits are only one component!
He played 22 years, was in the Majors when he was 19. Remarkably he only made 1 All Star appearance. He was not a player that was built for today’s game as he did not strike out much nor did he take walks. 450 of each. In 22 years. Over 10,000 plate appearances. Think about that a moment.
An ankle injury at age 25 that would bother him every day for the rest of his career. What if?
I just read something very profound by Tim Cook, CEO of Apple:
“This year has forced us to face plainly the things that make us human: disease, resilience, and hope.”
Think about that one!
I have. Often.
Am watching Meet The Press now and seeing how stirred up this country is at this time. And, with Covid raging at numbers we haven’t seen yet. What a time in our history.
Glad to hear you are feeling better. From here on out, feeling better is the goal. I’ve been on that march since April of ‘68. Mostly good days, but there have been weeks over the years. Good luck to you.
Thanks Mark.
Thanks for adding this Mark. Perfect supplement to my article!
Stay well and strong. Continued prayers for a full and speedy recovery!
Great write-up. 2D2. thank you. Bill Buckner, a gritty gamer who overcame playing through constant pain and excelled at it. A gifted athlete
Loved the story from Badger on Buckner.
Very good news, Mark, on no fever or sweats yesterday. Hope every day from now on is your “best day.”
So glad you are continuing to write, 2D2, and helping out Mark.
Thank you DBM! You’re much too kind. Time will not permit me to write as often, but I will pop in now and again.
Thanks for the great article, 2D2. Buckner was a great athlete when he was young, and good to know his history. He had a fantastic career and should not be remembered for one bad play. And I totally agree with your comments on Kershaw. No one earned this title more than Clayton. And as great as he is on the field, he is just as great off the field. Through his charity, Kershaw’s Challenge, he has helped so many disadvantaged people around the world. And this article by Alden Gonzalez gives a glimpse into his friendships. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30202146/world-series-2020-night-clayton-kershaw-became-world-champion-hometown
It’s time for Dodgers to start planning for 2021 defense. (I think this is interesting)
A look at where the Dodgers’ roster stands heading into their first offseason as defending World Series champs in 32 years
The offseason has already begun with 147 players declared free agents the morning after the Dodgers’ first World Series celebration in 32 years. The market figures to be flooded with more free agents than ever as teams address the financial losses caused by the pandemic this year and try to plan for an uncertain revenue situation in 2021.
MLB hasn’t had back-to-back champions since the New York Yankees won three consecutive titles from 1998-2000. In that time, only two NL pennant winners have managed to defend their titles – the Philadelphia Phillies in 2008-09 and the Dodgers in 2017-18.
Here’s a look at where the Dodgers’ roster stands heading into their first offseason as defending World Series champions in 32 years:
Player … 2020 salary (total before being prorated for short season) … 2021 contract status
PITCHERS
Clayton Kershaw … $31 million … Signed through 2021 ($31 million in 2021)
Kershaw’s mid-career evolution has been a rousing success but the specter of injury always lurks.
Pedro Baez … $4 million … Free agent
A mainstay of the bullpen – for good or bad – Baez faces an uncertain market for mid-level free agents.
Walker Buehler … $603,500 … Under club control
The Dodgers’ young ace did not handle the pandemic-shortened season well – but he was there when the Dodgers needed him in the postseason.
Kenley Jansen … $18 million … Signed through 2021 ($20 million in 2021)
Jansen’s run as the team’s closer might be over. His future role is one of 2021’s big unknowns.
Joe Kelly … $8.5 million … Signed through 2021 ($8.5 million in 2021)
Fans praised him for his pouty-lipped message to the Astros, but the Dodgers have not gotten anywhere close to their money’s worth from Kelly in the first two years of his three-year deal.
David Price … $32 million … Signed through 2022 ($32 million in 2021)
After opting out of the 2020 season, it will be interesting to see what a very well-rested 35-year-old Price will have to offer in 2021.
Jake McGee … $9.5 million … Free agent
The July pickup was very good during the regular season, but he disappeared during the postseason – which tells you where he fits in the Dodgers’ priorities.
Blake Treinen … $10 million … Free agent
Treinen was a bounceback gamble that paid off in a big way. With Jansen’s role likely downsized in the 2021 bullpen, re-signing Treinen could be a higher priority.
Dustin May … $573,500 … Under club control
May’s contributions in 2020 were based on his electric stuff. A bright future awaits if he can expand on his raw talents.
Alex Wood … $4 million … Free agent
Wood’s back-in-blue season was ruined by a shoulder injury. He could still be valuable to the Dodgers as pitching depth, however.
Jimmy Nelson … $750,000 … Free agent
The Dodgers spent $500,000 on Friday when they declined their $2 million club option on the oft-injured right-hander and paid the buyout instead. Nelson missed the 2020 season after back surgery.
Brusdar Graterol … $566,000 … Under club control
Graterol’s high-octane fastball and high-energy personality quickly made him a favorite of teammates and fans alike. But closer? Eventually maybe – but probably not in 2021.
Victor Gonzalez … $563,500 … Under club control
Gonzalez’s arrival in 2020 was a big plus for the Dodgers and figures to carry over into a bigger role in the 2021 bullpen.
Scott Alexander … $875,000 … Arbitration eligible
The market will likely be flooded by non-tender free agents this winter. Alexander could be part of the tide.
Dylan Floro … $593,500 … Arbitration eligible
Floro is a usable piece in assembling a bullpen – but he could also join Alexander on the non-tender market if the Dodgers decide to trim pennies from the payroll.
Julio Urias … $1 million … Arbitration eligible
It has been a rocky road but Urias’ postseason performance was absolutely essential to the Dodgers’ victory, forecasting bright things ahead.
Tony Gonsolin … $566,000 … Under club control
The Dodgers did not make it easy for Gonsolin in the postseason, and he will have to fight for a roster spot next spring (with rosters presumably downsized in 2021).
Adam Kolarek … $583,500 … Under club control
The death of the LOOGY did not mean the end of Kolarek’s usefulness in the Dodgers’ bullpen.
Caleb Ferguson … $583,500 … Under club control
Ferguson was emerging as a valuable bullpen piece, having accepted that role, but will now miss 2021 recovering from Tommy John surgery.
Dennis Santana … $573,500 … Under club control
The Dodgers clearly see a value in Santana’s ground-ball rate, possibly making room for him in the 2021 bullpen
CATCHERS
Will Smith … $573,500 … Under club control
Smith’s emergence as a key offensive contributor in the Dodgers’ lineup at such a young age was a big plus in 2020 and bodes well for the future.
Austin Barnes … $1.1 million … Arbitration eligible
Barnes’ offense has not been enough to earn him an every-day spot in the lineup. But every postseason, his defense seems to become critical to the Dodgers.
Keibert Ruiz … $563,500 … Under club control
Smith’s standing as one of the most offensive catchers in the National League clouds Ruiz’s future. Not trading him when his prospect status was higher might be a Dodger regret now.
INFIELDERS
Corey Seager … $7.6 million … Arbitration eligible
This is Seager’s last arb year. Negotiating a multi-year extension with the NLCS and World Series MVP before he gets to free agency has to be on the Dodgers’ offseason agenda.
Chris Taylor … $5.6 million … Signed through 2021 ($7.8 million in 2021)
The utilityman runs hot and cold, but his versatility will be even more valuable if Kiké Hernandez leaves as a free agent.
Max Muncy … $5.5 million … Signed through 2022 ($7.5 million in 2021)
A summer camp finger injury impacted Muncy’s regular season, but his importance to the Dodgers’ lineup was reaffirmed with his postseason performance.
Kiké Hernandez … $5.9 million … Free agent
Hernandez was never able to break through as an every-day player with the Dodgers. If he can find that opportunity elsewhere, the fan favorite is gone.
Justin Turner … $20 million … Free agent
His ill-advised decision to join the post-game party throws a bit of shade on a well-deserved reputation as the heart and soul of these Dodgers and a powerhouse contributor in the community – hard to imagine the Dodgers without him.
Gavin Lux … $566,000 … Under club control
2020 was a wasted year for the 2019 Prospect of the Year. That doesn’t mean it is over for him, though.
Edwin Rios … $566,000 … Under club control
Rios’ impressive power and the work ethic that improved his defense tremendously have endeared him to the Dodgers’ decision-makers and brightened his future.
Zach McKinstry … $563,500 … Under club control
McKinstry fits the mold the Dodgers love – a multi-position player with bat-to-ball skills at the plate. If Hernandez leaves, the door could open for McKinstry.
OUTFIELDERS
Mookie Betts … $27 million … Signed through 2032 ($27 million in 2021)
It didn’t seem possible but Betts was even better than the Dodgers could have hoped in 2020. More of the same is expected for the next decade.
A.J. Pollock … $12 million … Signed through 2022 ($15 million in 2021)
Did any Dodger have a more challenging year than Pollock, who contracted COVID-19 in the spring while his daughter, born premature, was in a neo-natal intensive care unit for four months?
Joc Pederson … $7.75 million … Free agent
A year ago, Pederson was looking forward to capitalizing on free agency. After a down season with teams in difficult financial straits, he could be headed into a cold winter.
Cody Bellinger … $11.5 million … Arbitration eligible
Bellinger’s MVP follow up was disappointing over 60 games – but it’s still in there and the multi-talented player is able to affect the game in many ways.
Matt Beaty … $573,500 … Under club control
Beaty failed to build on an outstanding 2019 and will now have to fend off the next wave of Dodger prospects in order to claim a spot on the 2021 bench.
Los Angeles Daily News
The Dodgers are only paying half of Prices deal.
His adjusted salary is $16 million. I expect him to more than earn that.
– I read that the wife of an unknown player from Tampa also tested positive the same day as Turner.
– 18 postseason games, all started by pitchers who have been for the Dodgers their entire career.
– If the Dodgers are planning to sign any right-handed batter, I think it should be DJ LeMahieu, it would be perfect!
Why you can’t shift on LeMahieu
Has not seen a legitimate infield shift in over four years
https://www.mlb.com/news/why-you-cant-shift-on-dj-lemahieu
Hi guys – glad to hear you’re on the mend Mark.
Bad news here -,heading back into a month long (to start with) full Lockdown from Thursday, similar to the one in March that lasted 12 weeks.
Only difference this time is that schools and college are remaining open.
The nightmare continues.
Sorry to hear that W, but not surprised. At least you know how to deal with it.
How do you have a full lockdown and keep schools open?
Reads like this:
There are 5 main things:
people must stay at home, except for very limited purposes
people must not visit other households or meet other people they do not live with
certain businesses and venues, including bars, restaurants and most shops must close
secondary schools can provide learning online only for the week after half-term, other than for children in years seven and eight. Primary schools and childcare settings can remain open.
face coverings continue to be mandatory in the indoor public spaces that remain open (subject to certain exemptions and exceptions), including on public transport and in taxis
If you break these new laws:
You may be told to go home or removed from where you are and returned home.
You could have to pay a fixed penalty notice of £60. This will rise to £120 for the second breach,
Or you could have criminal proceedings brought against you, and if found guilty, you will have to pay a fine.
Even where something may be allowed, we ask you not to think about whether it is permitted but whether it is truly necessary and sensible. The purpose of this short lockdown is to create a concerted national effort to do everything we can to stop the spread of coronavirus, and every individual contribution to that counts.
How long will these measures stay in place?
These measures will be in place from 6pm Friday 23 October until the start of Monday 9 November 2020.
I’m sure W can fill in the details. Harder to do here because of states rights. States have the right to remain unsensible if they choose.
Not harder to do here. Impossible to do here.
So far, yep.
Great write up on Billy Bucks. Always liked him as a player. I was at the game when he hurt his ankle. His replacement in left field, Paciorek, later that same game crashed into that low fence in left and got some bruised ribs for his trouble. And Mike Marshall, the reliever came out of the game for some tightness in his back. I remember Buck trying to stretch that hit into a triple. And he was right, he had played that way all year. And it took two perfect throws to get him. There have been many players who have made or not made a play when it most counted and got labeled as goats. Mickey Owen missing a 3rd strike that would have ended the game. A ground ball that Freddie Lindstrom missed. Umps make them too. I cannot remember the umps name, but in the KC win over the Cardinals in the 80’s the ump blew a call at first that cost the Red Birds the series. And the scrutiny that comes after something like that is never ending. I knew because I had followed his career how bad Buck’s ankles were. That was as much on the manager for not taking him out as it was on Buck. And of course the BP not doing it’s job. I think most of us remember Donnie Moore. A very good relief pitcher who pitched for the Angels. He gave up a go ahead homer to Dave Henderson in the 86 playoffs. The kicker is that the Angels came back and tied the game. The Red Sox got the go ahead on a sac fly in the 11th, and won the game 7-6. Moore got the loss. But the Angels still had 2 shots to get to the series, but the Sox blew them out in both games. After his career ended in 1989, Moore got into an argument with his wife and shot her 3 times. His oldest daughter got her out of the house and took her to the hospital. Moore then committed suicide. His wife survived. Later she said he had been depressed a lot. The pressure of the game is sometimes too much for some to handle even after they have retired. I always thought that the Red Sox fans were putting the blame for that loss on the wrong person. Oh yeah, Buckner wore # 22.
Speaking of # 22. I think it will probably be the next number retired by the Dodgers if CK makes the Hall. Which most people think is a lock. There has been a push by many to retire # 21 in honor of Roberto Clemente. Not sure how much steam that has gotten, but it has been discussed. And that is across the board in baseball, not by the Dodgers. Some Puerto Rican’s feel he should get the same honor as Robinson. I think it has some merit. If memory serves, he is the first Latino in the Hall. I still think Gil Hodges belongs and nothing will ever change my mind about that. Not when a guy like Tony Perez is in and his career stats mirror Gil’s and he was no where near the fielder Gil was. And there are those endless Fernando-maniac’s who come out every year wanting # 34 retired. Well, even though it is not officially retired, no player has worn it since Fernando left. Since he meant so much to the Latino community in LA, it probably would get some consideration once he retires from the broadcast booth. He would join Gilliam as the only players who’s number is retired who are not in the hall.
Great article on Buckner, 2d2. I saw him when he could still run early in his career, and he really could run. Great add Badger, to his story. Congrats getting only 150 feet short at 49.
“Walter Alston once said of Buckner, “He gets the red neck a lot, but I sort of like that.” Walter was a bit north in his description. The more baseball correct language would have been “He gets a case of the red ass a lot”.
Have we heard anything further on any other positive tests coming after the celebration after game 6? One of the Ray’s wives? I’d like to still get the “rest of the story”.
I hit my last home run on the Napa College field when I was 50 Phil. Over the scoreboard in left, which sounds more impressive than it really was. 347’ down the left field line, scoreboard just on the other side, 12’ high. A teammate walked it off, ball went an estimated 370’. Not bad for an old dude. I still have the ball, signed by the team. We won the Championship that year. It was all pretty cool.
I read the Dodgers are in home quarantine for two weeks. I won’t be surprised if they try to just sweep it all under the rug. What a weird freakin year. Gonna get weirder this coming week.
I just saw a video of Kershaw and Bellinger on Jimmy Kimmel where Belli was in a car on his way to Arizona to his parent’s house.
Not much of a quarantine.
Well, you gonna believe what you see a or what they tell you?
That’s damned impressive Badger. At 50, I was just hitting golfballs and fungoes. There are some pretty impressive seniors still playing slo-pitch in Az. An old asst coach at Washington State, Kenny Johnson runs a competitive league in Pebble Creek and they have a travel team. Sun City has a nice park and serious players. If I had a knee and hip left, I’d love to play.
When I was playing in the Over 50 leagues our team (Sonoma F.O.G.) played a lot of tournaments. In Sacramento we played the Over 60 World Champions and they were an impressive group. Typical Open look to them, big guys who could all hit a ton, with a slick fielding shortstop. None of them could run that well but most of the time they didn’t need to. We beat them in close one. We played in a 300’ park, which was regulation dimensions but left and left center had tall fencing to protect a parking lot. Both teams were banging it off that fence fairly regularly, them more than us, but with their lack of speed, on offense and defense, we just got more total bases. At the time I thought “damm, over 60 and these guys are still doing it better than anyone their age. “ It was an honor to play them. Now I’m over 70 and wishing there was a league for me locally. There isn’t. Probably a good thing. I can’t run worth spit anymore. The heart is there, the legs are not.
I golfed some earlier, when I lived in Napa and in Sedona. Not really my game but I was shooting in the high 80’s fairly regularly when I quit. I had a buddy who worked the Sedona golf resort, and another buddy in Napa that was Superintendent of the Chardonnay Club course. Good rates when you know people. Kinda spendy otherwise. No connections for about the last 7 years so, I’m done.
I saw Bill Buckner at Dodger Stadium after he was traded to the Cubs. I was very impressed with how hard that he had to work just to get ready to play after his injury – he stretched and exercised and worked for 30 minutes to get ready to play. As good a hitter as he was after his injury, I have wondered just how good that he would have been had he not been injured.
So, since the pandemic started, it has been difficult for people to get regular medical care. My daughter has a friend who has been feeling tired and run down since March. She has tied to schedule appointments but several have been postponed and she was unable to make others. Finally, last week she made her appointment, had a few tests done, and awaited the results. Two days later this was the message”
You have Stage 4 leukemia and have less than two weeks to live.”
I am going to suggest that the collateral damage of the Pandemic may cost more lives than the pandemic itself!
Get your heads outta’ your ass!
Holy crap.
Yeah, good advice mover.
Wonderful write-up on Bill Buckner, 2D2. Best I’ve ever read on him. Reminds me a bit of how JT is being villified in the press right now. Different circumstances, of course. But turning someone who has had an otherwise exemplary career – both as a player and a person of character – into a pariah overnight has a familiar ring to it.
I was living in NY at the time and rooting for the Mets (my second favorite team at the time!), so naturally I was ecstatic when the ball rolled through his legs. Still, you wouldn’t wish what happened to him subsequently on anyone.
Good stuff today. I always loved Buckner, even after the moved on to other teams. I was really disappointed at the time of the trade, but I liked that we got the guy that rescued the flag during the All-Star game.
On retired numbers and the Hall of Fame…
I don’t agree with retiring Roberto Clemente’s number across baseball. Jackie deserved it for all the crap he took, the death threats, his demeanor and then being one of the best players in the sport at the time. Nobody else deserves that distinction. No insult to Roberto, but there is only one guy that did what Jackie did in all of sports.
Happy Birthday Fernando! Fernadomania was awesome, he was a very good player, but not a Hall of Famer. So, sorry Fernando, no number retired for you.
Most Dodger fans know that Jim Gilliam is the only Dodger’s player with a retired number that isn’t a HOF’er. Does anyone know the reason why? Was this a knee jerk reaction? Would it have been retired if he didn’t die right before the World Series while a member of the coaching staff?
I think the reason why Gilliam’s number was retired is because he was the personification of the Dodger’s way to play baseball. He didn’t have the talent that others had, but he was probably the most unselfish player to play the game. He played multiple positions, would take pitches to let Maury steal and sacrifice him to third. He always played for the name on the front of the jersey. He was a player-coach before he transitioned into a full time member of the coaching staff and had a 28 year career with the Dodgers. He’s the only exception to the rule.
A couple more thoughts. I heard somebody say once, that if you have to think about whether a player should be in the HOF, he shouldn’t be. That message rang true to me and has stuck with me. I don’t agree with some of the selections recently. Mike Mussina and Harold Baines come to mind.
As far as retired numbers go, I like what the Dodgers are doing here. You have to not only be the best of the best, but you also have to dedicate your career to the club. There are no cheap ones here like San Diego retiring Garvey’s number, or the Angels retiring Carew’s number. I like it as it is.
Now to Clayton Kershaw. 3 Cy Youngs (so far), an MVP and 10 straight seasons with a sub 3 ERA and now he’s got at least 1 Championship to go with it. 22 will be the next number up on the wall as long as he doesn’t go and change teams and pitch for another 10 years. He’ll still be a Hall of Famer, but he won’t be on the wall if he spends significant time in other jersey. See Mike Piazza.
I think your point about being with a team is a good one. I didn’t get the Garvey thing. He was there 5 years and never won a championship. I used to think we were retiring too many but now with players moving around the way they do most numbers are safe.
I totally agree about Gilliam. He was as unselfish as they come. And he twice came out of the coaching box to help them win pennants in 65 and 66. Jr was the epitome of the total team player. I do not think retiring his number was a knee jerk reaction.
When Justin Turner next comes to bat in Dodger Stadium regardless of the uniform he wears, he will get a standing ovation. Hopefully it will be 50,000 fans cheering and not 500.
The Dodgers should retire Fernando’s uniform based on the excitement he brought to baseball and the Dodgers and for continuing to help the Dodgers in the radio booth.
Consideration should be given to retiring Larry Doby’s uniform. Not based on how well he played but because he endured the same as Jackie but in a different set of cities and teams.
I am a no for Clemente. We would have to start thinking about the best players from every country that has won the Roberto Clemente Award as the player that “best exemplifies the game of baseball, sportsmanship, community involvement and the individual’s contribution to his team”.
Bum, I agree totally about Larry Doby. He was 3 months behind Jackie and integrated a whole new set of cities in the American League. Larry is a testimony that practically nobody in America remembers those who come in 2nd. He was also the 2nd MLB Manager after Frank Robinson. Cleveland has done some things in his remembrance but his number isn’t retired in MLB, no movies, no statues. During the 1997 season, when the long-departed Jackie Robinson’s number 42 was being retired throughout baseball, and the still-living Doby was being virtually ignored by the media, an editorial in Sports Illustrated pointed out that Doby had to suffer the same indignities that Robinson did, and with nowhere near the media attention and support. Long before Doby was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame came induction in the Indians Hall of Fame in 1966. Later, in 1973, he was inducted into the South Carolina Hall of Fame and in 2010, the New Jersey Hall of Fame. On August 10, 2007, the Indians paid tribute to Doby on Larry Doby Day by collectively using his number (14) on their uniforms. The franchise honored him in 2012, when Eagle Avenue, next to the Indians’ Progressive Field, was renamed “Larry Doby Way”. Not to take anything away from Jackie Robinson but Larry Doby deserves more recognition than he’s gotten for breaking the color barrier in the American League.
Here’s a link to an article in the LA Times today, Kike giving his response to winning the WS.
A good read because…………………well, it’s Kike.
https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/story/2020-11-01/kike-hernandez-dodgers-world-series
Thanks STB, I enjoy reading Kike’.
Damn… I was thinking I could sneak in and not have any Covid talk today, but Dr. Timmons sneaked right in…
So earlier in the week I hear Dr. Fauci is an idiot and the CDC and WHO phonies… Damn If I didn’t know any better I think POTUS backers are infiltrating LADT…
As POTUS would say, Indiana National Guard “stand back and stand by” for your November road trip… Rather than jumping in earlier, I sort of let Badger comment and yes Mrs. Montague, Badger did well…
First and foremost, Congrats Dodger fans… A long wait but we got the FIRST ONE out of the way… Lakers 2020 champs and I’m praying Notre Dame can get a trophy that has also alluded us fans since 1988…
Junior Gilliam, a legend in my mind… Billy Bucks, one play doesn’t make a career and a damn good one at that…
J.T. I hope will man 3B next year and a little 1B… He need not wear sackcloth and whip his back with reeds (like so many things that I spew, where in the hell did that come from?)
Watford my Man, congrats on your winning and hopefully if this body of mine holds together, I hopefully can run you down in Cali next year or ?…
4 week from my back surgery and it’s rough… A darn great wife and the 2021 Camelback schedule will get me there…
It seems that the LADT writers are rolling back in and that’s a beautiful thing!!!
Last but not least, we have rounded the corner and too many lines on that horizontal mirror tells us and Jedd Trump that these deaths we’re seeing are fabricated and doctors are making money off these bogus numbers…
LADT writers are alive, and mostly well.
POTUS backers are everywhere peter and many are packing heat, so …. stand by.
Fauci is an All Star as far as I’m concerned. The vomit lands on him and he stands his ground. We are lucky to have him. If only more would listen.
Lines on a horizontal mirror? We reminiscing?
There are bogus numbers of course. If your bulls*** meter is fully charged they aren’t difficult to discern.
Notre Dame huh? I’m a Pac 8-10-12-man myself. I look forward to another year of no representation in the tournament.
Finally watching G5. Great job by Kershaw in the 5th inning. Tough spot and he escaped.
May just came in in the 6th and blew away Margot.
No offense, but LA/TB was a mismatch. Hard to believe it even went 6. Go blue.
Goodbye TB/LA
Gimme nine Billy Bucks every time. Gamer!
I try and give some possible good news that vaccines could be on the horizon and we might have a normal season, not making it political at all, and PeterJ and Badger have to make it political!
Shut the hell up about it or go away!
This is your final warning… or I will make you go away!
You should know by now I am not subtle whatsoever!
The comments on this are now closed!
Think twice about doing this again!
ARE WE CLEAR?