ASStericks! 2Demeter2 came up with that and I give him his props for that… actually I am jealous that he thought of it before me. Henceforth (or is it Hinchforth) they are no longer the Astros, but rather… the ASStericks. Here’s is what 2Demeter2 has to say about the cheaters:
2Demeter2
Having just completed reading Commissioner Rob Manfred’s 9-page report regarding this matter… there were many things that made my stomach turn. There were, however, a few things that really stood out to me.
• The first was this statement: “Many of the players who were interviewed admitted that they knew the scheme was wrong because it crossed the line from what the player believed was fair competition and/or violated MLB rules. Players stated that if Manager A.J. Hinch told them to stop engaging in the conduct, they would have immediately stopped.” Are you freaking kidding me? I knew it was wrong to beat my wife or embezzle funds from the business, but if only my friends, or my boss, would have told me what I was doing was wrong, I would have stopped. They didn’t so I kept on doing it.
• The second statement: “Although the Astros’ players did not attempt to hide what they were doing from Hinch or other Astros employees, they were concerned about getting caught by players from other teams. Several players told my investigators that there was a sense of “panic” in the Astros’ dugout after White Sox pitcher Danny Farquhar appeared to notice the trash can bangs. Before the game ended, a group of Astros players removed the monitor from the wall in the tunnel and hid it in an office. For the Postseason, a portable monitor was set up on a table to replace the monitor that had been affixed to the wall near the dugout.” I’m going to keep cheating on my wife, but I’m worried about getting caught, so I’ll develop better methods to cover up my bad behavior.
Given these findings, it is beyond my comprehension that no player was disciplined. Some claimed that they weren’t sure that it helped them. Really? Their team batting average for 2017 was a collective .282. Ironically, the worst hitter in the starting line-up was 40-year-old Carlos Beltran, who hit .231 and had an OPS of .666. Enough said. If players can be suspended and have their reputations tarnished because they innocently took an over the counter product, not punishing the “Ass” terisk players seems very hypocritical to me. Reading the report, I was reminded of Jerry Tarkanian, the legendary college basketball coach, and his ongoing battles with the NCAA. He was very quick to point out the double standards within that organization. As he would often rail: “The NCAA was so mad at UCLA, they were going to put Cal. State Northridge on 2 years probation!” I haven’t quite put my finger on it yet, but I feel that MLB has a much deeper institutional problem within the hierarchy of the upper echelons of Major League Baseball. There’s a sort of elitist attitude that allows them to wink at existing problems in an effort not to tarnish the sport to badly.
Overall I think the punishment was too light. I’m not sure what I would have done differently, but I do know that Alex Cora should take a seat next to Pete Rose. Moreover, if Carlos Beltran is allowed to keep his job with the Mets, after these disclosures, the resulting stench will be awful.
My Take
I think MLB did all they could do and the punishment was severe, however, justice could never be served in this case. The ASStericks took a World Series Championship from the Dodgers by cheating. Nothing can ever restore that. MLB can’t vacate that Championship and sanctioning players individually would result in long and protracted litigation with the MLBPA. Their decision was decisive and severe, given the constraints they operate under.
In Game 1 of the World Series in 2017, Clayton Kershaw was dominant, going 7 innings, allowing just 3 hits and striking out 11. Then in Game 5, he was uncharacteristically bombed, giving up 6 ER. Dodger fans assumed that he was a “choke artist” but now we find out the ASStericks with their CF Camera and Morse Code Bat Banging knew what was coming.
A .250 hitter becomes a .400 hitter when he knows what pitch is coming because he lays off the curveball that ends up in the dirt and sits on that fastball at just the right time. It’s a game-changer and instead of going back to LA with a 3-2 lead, the Dodgers were behind 3-2. It was more than just a game that was lost when Kershaw was bombed in Houston. Seeing your Ace get crushed was akin to the team having their hearts cut-out: “uh oh, here, we go again!” The whole series turned on that entire cheating incident, and it changed careers, legacies, and lives… forever!
I believe AJ Hinch when he says he did not promote cheating. It was Alex Cora and the players led by Carlos Beltran. However, he did nothing to stop it and he was in charge. A one-year ban and being fired is light in my opinion, but I think MLB did what they felt would stick. I do not believe that Jeff Luhnow did not know. He knew and ignored it.
Like Barry Bonds HR record, the ASStericks 2017 World Series Championship is officially a joke and the Architect who built the 2017 Dodgers still has to endure the morons who still insist on saying “Andrew Friedman has never won anything!”
In the next few days or weeks, we shall learn about the fate of the cheating 2018 Red Sox, led by the criminal Alex Cora. Their GM is already gone, but Alex Cora will be suspended for at least a year… most likely longer. Possibly for life. Allegedly, the Red Sox stopped cheating in the playoffs…
It’s possible that Andrew Friedman could have two titles if not for the cheating. Here’s what needs to happen TODAY: John Henry and the Red Sox need to grow a pair and fire Alex Cora, NOW! They need to act decisively in the interest of baseball and their own organization. Cut ties now… get a new manager and move on!
You are not going to hear anything from the Dodgers about the Astros punishment as they released this statement:
“All clubs have been asked by Major League Baseball not to comment on today’s punishment of the Houston Astros, as it’s inappropriate to comment on discipline imposed on another club. The Dodgers have also been asked not to comment on any wrongdoing during the 2017 World Series and will have no further comment at this time.”
This whole thing sickens me.
The more I have thought about the situation and the punishment handed out, it appears MLB had an eye clearly focused on the negotiations for the next collective bargaining agreement In light of this scandal, I don’t believe they want to follow that up with a players strike, so they determined to make a subtle shift in position and not rock the boat with player suspensions and fines, giving management some negotiation capital in other areas.
Houston “Chemical Alley” Asstros and Boston “Dou@h Bag” Sox cheated to win. The Dodgers are the TRUE World CHAMPIONS. So let us hold TWO CHAMPIONSHIP PARADES. On March 21 the Universal New Year and the second during the All Star Week.
Go Dodgers. Go Dave Roberts.
I agree that the Red Sox should fire Cora now. Cora should be out of baseball forever and so should Carlos Beltran. It is disgraceful that MLB will not punish Beltran because he was a player at the time. So bloody what. Maybe there would be some union litigation, but bring it on. While the MLBPA would be required to represent the player, does anyone really believe that MLBPA will want to heartily represent cheaters right before their CBA is about to expire? It would really ring hollow that MLBPA gives a rip about the integrity of the game. Plus would NYM really want a manager that was fighting a legal battle over being disciplined for cheating?
Come on MLB, you are in the right to go after the two masterminds behind this fiasco. You eliminated the two ostriches but are ignoring the true perpetrators. They in essence have a life time ban. Who is going to hire them?That is like locking up the getaway driver for life, but putting the actual bank robbers on probation. Come on Manfred and MLB, grow a pair. Ban Cora AND Beltran for life. Let the union represent cheating.
This gag order placed on MLB teams is a crock as well. Jim Crane should be castigated himself. It is his team that was found cheating, whether he condoned it or not. He needs to take ownership of it all. I recognize that $5MM is the max allowed, but that was a drop in the bucket compared to what the team realized for “winning” the WS. Mark Walter should test the gag order and tell the world that Houston vacating their title is the least that they should have to pay. They should be banned from being able to participate in the next two years post season. So what if it hurts the City of Houston. What did their cheating do to the City of Los Angeles? Stand up for Clayton Kershaw and the team. If Houston cannot participate in the post season maybe the fans will stay away with nothing to play for, and that is what would hurt the organization. Not $5M.
While the two draft picks are a start, the team will lose the #30 and perhaps #70 pick this year. A loss to be sure, but not like a Top 10 and Top 40 pick. They will plug those dollars lost in signing top draft choices back into the organization in other ways. They should also lose all of their International Free Agency money for two years as well.
Come on Manfred, above any other responsibility, your job is to protect the integrity of the game, and this punishment hardly matches that vast responsibility. Make it hurt. I will wait to see what happens with Cora, but all you have done thus far is to punish two bit players (guilty as they are), and let Beltran and the Houston ASSterisks off the hook.
HEAR, HEAR! Mark Walter, Magic Johnson, Billy Jean King, et al have a statement of solidarity for integrity of the game, and the injustice perpetrated against all of MLB that not only tarnished the image of the great game, but forever questioned the legitimacy of the 2017 regular and post seasons, including the World Series. At the most the Dodgers can be fined $5M — that could be paid out of petty cash. BUT, if the Dodgers are going to throw rocks, they better be 100% certain that they do not have some dirty laundry to be found.
Steve Phillips said that he heard that if owners complained the punishment would be worse than the punishment for the Astros. Don’t mess with Rob Hitler, ‘er Manfred!
Spot on AC! The gag order placed on the other teams speaks volumes!!!
I’m deeply saddened that we need to spend time on this blog discussing this, when we should be celebrating Alex Wood’s return to the Dodgers!!
Manfred is really Babyfred. What a weakling. He needs to go.
Shouldn’t the Dodgers receive some form of compensation for being victims of cheating in one, possibly two was?
They would have to sue the Astros to do so. That might be interesting…
Where is the statement from the MLBPA? The other players and their union need to step up and go on the record that the behavior of certain players in the Astros organization is not condoned, nor excused by the union. That the game should be played hard, but with integrity. Union should call out the players for what they did – cheat their union brothers, the game, and the fans.
I would like to see some players start to comment, but there is a “code of silence” among players and I suspect we won’t hear much from them other than an occasional “drive by” comment. David Freese had a tweet yesterday that more or less “split the baby.” He was critical of the punishment meted out, but was also critical of Mike Friers without naming him specifically.
Dan Plesac said on MLB TV that teams have two primary camps of players. The pitchers and position players. The pitchers, who make a living trying to get outs, are enjoying the unveiling of the cheating scandal while position players, who make a living trying to get base hits, might have a more subdued response.
Fiers better watch his back this season, especially when the A’s go to Houston. He is a free agent after this season — retirement may seem like a good idea.
In light of the fact that the Dodgers might have won 2 WS I’d like to see all the naysayers of Roberts, Kershaw and Kasten take a break and admit that those 3 aren’t as bad as they thought. Give em a break, you have been second guessing things that were ok, except someone else was cheating.
I really feel bad for Clayton, he may have been a hero instead of being tarnished. At least he answers to someone able to make ” all things work to the good… “
Regarding Beltran: From what the NYPost is reporting, once MLB decided to grant all players immunity in its investigation, Beltran, a player for the 2017 Astros, found himself in the clear, in terms of discipline, as long as he cooperated, which baseball officials believe he did.
As for vacating the Championship; The Commissioner’s Office made clear from the outset of this investigation that such a ruling wasn’t on the table. Think of the Pandora’s box that would open: Do you take away the 2000 Yankees’ title because ace Roger Clemens allegedly used illegal performance-enhancing drugs that season? What about Bobby Thomson’s “Shot Heard ‘Round the World” off Ralph Branca, which was likely achieved via illegal sign-stealing? It’s way too messy.
Beltran gets a pass from MLB discipline, but the facts speak for themselves; he lied before getting immunity and clearly without integrity. The Mets must now decide if this is the type of on-field leader they want in the dugout, clubhouse, in front of the public, and the press. If it were up to me I would not want him in those situations. I thought about vacating the World Championship and think that organized gambling may have lobbied Manfred about the consequences of that action.
MLB is weak. If Cora is not suspended for life, then remove the ban from Pete Rose. Every player who knew about and said nothing should be suspended for 10 games. Every position player who used it should be suspended 30 games. Rotate the suspension so the Astros have a team. Suspend the player(s) who thought up the scheme for life. There is no place in any sport for cheaters. Let the players union defend cheaters. Take away the WS title from the Astros. You cannot give it to LA. Fine every player the amount of difference between the winner and loser amount.
Making every team shut up is wrong.
I have, on numerous occasions on this board, called Kersh a choker, etc for his numerous playoff failures. I have said he’s the #1 reason we don’t have at least 1 ring in this 7 year run.
I will now stop with those comments. Granted he wasn’t great in 2013, 2014, or 2016 (he was great vs the Mets in 2015), but 2017 was his year to win World Series MVP if he wins that crucial game 5 in Houston. Can’t fault him or Yu for what happened.
Now let’s go take this in 2020 and finally get our ring.
This part of the report regarding Manfred’s opinion of the culture that exists in the Houston organization I find most telling:
“But while no one can dispute that Luhnow’s baseball operations department is an industry leader in its analytics, it is very clear to me that the culture of the baseball operations department, manifesting itself in the way it’s employees are treated, its relations with other Clubs, and its relations with the media and external stakeholders, has been very problematic. At least in my view, the baseball operations insular culture – one that valued results over other considerations, combined with a staff of individuals who often lacked direction or sufficient oversight, led, at least in part, to the Brandon Taubman incident, the Club’s admittedly inappropriate and inaccurate response to the incident, and finally, to an environment that allowed the conduct described in this report to have occurred.”
Essentially the Commish believes Luhnow to be a scumbag, responsible for creating a cultural climate in the Houston org. that put winning over integrity. I don’t think he’s the only executive in the game that would stoop to those levels, but I’m surprised that he put that opinion out there.
As far as all the comments about the Assterisks vacating the title. It was never going to happen. Then again, opposing fans will let them have it and never allow them to forget. That in itself will either make or break the Houston club. They’ll only have themselves in their corner. 2020 will be a long season for the cheaters, a team that has mainly stayed in tact the past 3 seasons. Imagine what it will be like when Houston Goes into the Bronx to play for the first time this year
I would be over $10,000 richer if we had won either of those World Series.
This is a terrible smear on the game – when a whole Franchise is involved in a calculated cheating system, they should be stripped of their title, and 2017 should be left blank.
Mets Fire Beltran.
Dodgers then trade for Diaz.
Giant fans love and support Bonds.
Patriot fans love and support Bellechek.
* fans will love and support the **.
Just a question. Did the Cincinnati Reds vacate their title with their win over the Chicago White Sox in the Blacksox Scandal?
The Asstericks not only robbed the Dodger organization and fans along with Clayton, Yu and the Dodger team, but most of all Baseball, itself. Hope they are saving the harshest penalties for Cora and Beltran but I will not hold my breath.
Good analysis and comments everyone.
No – the title was not vacated.
So the record books show the Reds as winning the WS even though it was proven the White Sox threw the game?
Yes – they still show the Reds as the champions that year.
It’s pretty obvious to me the MLB investigators were only searching for the end game….was there a sign stealing scandal without much effort or consideration as to the who, when and how aspects that should be central to every investigation. I assume their marching orders were to grant immunity early to the players so they wouldn’t “lawyer up” which would only lengthen the investigation requiring litigation between MLBPA, lawyers, and the Commissioners Office etc.
Providing the players with immunity allowed for a fairly quick investigation giving Manfred the answer as to wether or not there was cheating and the ability to impose discipline before ST started, but doing so left a glaring hole in the investigation as to actually conspired to cheat and who actually did what to put this cheating scandal into full gear. Yes, we know Cora largely set it up, but players had to be involved, staff members had to install TV monitors and I’ve read that they even had a system in place where players in the BP would put their hands on the BP fence to signal an off speed pitch. This was an elaborate and detailed scandal where ALL individuals involved should have been identified and disciplined. In spite of what Luhnow and Hinch said in their written apologies this scandal has their fingerprints all over it.
The investigators were laser focused on proving the cheating scandal happened without apparently spending any time or energy on trying to identify the actual conspiracy elements to include identifying all the players involved in developing the system, including who acquired the TV monitors, who installed them, what justification was used to purchase them etc. The entire investigation appears superficial to me. The investigators knew from the onset they only had to prove it happened and did not have to investigate any of the minutiae, especially which players used it etc.
Clearly Manfred didn’t want to have to impose discipline on the players and I suspect he and Crane (Astros owner) long had discussions about the outcome, allowing Crane to save face by looking heroic by terminating Hinch and Luhnow.
Something is fishy in Denmark and I suspect the entire Astros organization is corrupt and Manfred didn’t have the “balls” to truly get to the “bottom of the matter” only getting enough information to claim he’s keeping baseball clean.
Good point. Think about it – if Manfred came down on the owner, his job would be in jeopardy. I find it hard to believe that Manfred would extend his ‘investigation” as far as the owners.
Manfred is Blinded By The Light
I was hoping Luhnow and Hinch would be suspended from baseball for life and Cora also. If the players are free from all actions against them, than I would like MLB to name all the players involved and the amount they played. They were involved in cheating, let everyone know who they are.
Do you really think they would do that? There’d be a strike the next day. The owners, the management, and even the commissioner are willing to let this thing go away. Why? Maybe it’s just the tip of the iceberg. Maybe cheating in one form or another is going on all over baseball, involving many clubs and players, perhaps even the saintly Dodgers.
By the way, did anyone notice that Dodger Report seems to have gone belly up?
I don’t think it is necessary to name names – every Astro player and coach who were with the team in 2017, regular and / or post season, is permanently tainted with the designation of cheater. They may say “not me,” but it doesn’t matter – no one will believe them, including their cohorts from other teams. The stigma of cheating should stay with all of these players and coaches the same as those who used PEDs.
LAdodgerReport.com?
Hard to believe. 😉
There are 3 or 4 knowledgeable people over there who are actually not morons and are welcome here. Too bad… so sad! I started that site, but had to leave as I don’t play well with others.
baseball1439
“. . . I would like MLB to name all the players involved and the amount they played. They were involved in cheating, let everyone know who they are.”
2017 Houston Astros roster
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2017-roster.shtml
BANG!
Okay, in all likelihood, the Dodgers probably were adversely affected by the actions of the management, on-field management and staff as well as the players of the Astros in 2017 and the Red Sox in 2018 and should have won one of the two world series those years. Now the franchise, and we as fans, have two very clear options. First, we can wallow in the mud and cry and scream about how we have been cheated, or we can choose to move forward from here toward 2020 and beyond with an eye on the future instead of the past. I know the team won’t benefit from looking backward and playing the role of the martyr and, as a fan, I don’t think it will help me enjoy baseball and the Dodgers going forward.
Oh, by the way, with regard to the persons in the Red Sox and Astros management structure, I don’t think a one year suspension is sufficient and feel this is no worse or better than what Pete Rose did and they should have to face lifetime bans if they were aware of the malfeasance and did not blow the whistle. Re, the players. You knew better and benefitted from the illegal and immoral actions that you tacitly allowed. Calculate how much you have gained to date and donate the time and money to help young people around the nation to know better than to behave as you behaved. KARMA can be a real MOTHER.
It’s tough getting old… I just posted the comment below using an incorrectly spelled handle so it went into moderation. Mea Culpa…
Do you really think they would do that? There’d be a strike the next day. The owners, the management, and even the commissioner are willing to let this thing go away. Why? Maybe it’s just the tip of the iceberg. Maybe cheating in one form or another is going on all over baseball, involving many clubs and players, perhaps even the saintly Dodgers.
By the way, did anyone notice that Dodger Report seems to have gone belly up?
I responded to your other handle
It’s too bad that the Astros don’t play in LA in 2020.
I can here it now:
All the stadium in unison chanting:
You are Cheaters… You are Cheaters!
Beat the Cheats…Beat the Cheats
The Dodgers should receive some form of compensation for losing the 2017 (and possibly the 2018) world series via cheating!
New Astro Uniform is white with black horizontal stripes. (I don’t see how to post pictures here)
..and I’m reminded today that Alex Cora didn’t attend the White House reception after winning the 2019 WS because he was upset at the federal government relief efforts and response to the Puerto Rico hurricane.
Two-faced idiot without a scintilla of character and integrity. I can be a social justice warrior on the biggest stage, but when no one is watching, I’ll just devise a cheating scheme because winning is the only thing. I would suggest to Cora that winning the right way is the only thing.
He should be summarily fired by the Red Sox and the Wilpon’s should re-consider Carlos Beltran as their manager. Just my two cents worth.
Amen, brother!!
Make that 4 cents !
Kershaw being bombed in the playoffs isnt a new thing though.
It’s not new, but Luhnow learned from the Cardinals and Alex Cora learned from the Astros. It’s not far fetched to think Kershaw was filmed starting with the Cards 10 years ago!
Adam,
I could not agree more. Something was up.
LaDodgereport is alive and kicking.
Prolly doing a bit of maintenance.
It doesn’t come up when I try and load it.
I was able to access it. They last posted 2 days ago.
It wasn’t LA Dodger Report that was concerned with AB 5 – it was True Blue LA.
The thieves, the corrupt, the cheats see Mike Fiers as a traitor, as a snitch, in fact Mike Fiers is a hero for pointing out a corruption fact, that’s very good for the game.
Many are asking to suspend Cora and Hinch for life, although officially it is a year for Hinch and possibly a little more for Cora, in reality they will be out of baseball, and nobody will hire them again, so the hardest punishment will be the unwritten, the punishment of the people for the Astrorats, will never be forgotten.
I would not be surprised if they dismissed Beltrán even though he had no penalty and finished his manager’s career without debuting.
I thought I read that due to a new law in CA on the issue of the payment of the wages for individuals like occasional writers, L A Dodger Report were going to be forced to change or terminate their operating structure due to incorporation in CA.
OK, now all our writers are going to go on strike… and I already pay them NOTHING!
How much of this has to do with the Houston media market?
I also am dumbfounded that there are zero consequences for the players. I know there are labor issues in the near future which likely played a role. But the broader Houston media market has more than doubled since 1980, and continues to grow. In the same time period St Louse, Cleveland and Detroit have been in sharp decline.
How much of this is a business decision?
Gotta think it played a role. Large-market Yankees and Red Sox only received slaps on the wrists for using Apple watches to relay signs. The Royals would’ve received much harsher punishments.
Also, how in the world can the casinos play a role in Manfred’s punishment decisions?!?
From The Athletic:
The scandal may not end once MLB finishes investigating Boston. Logan Morrison, a veteran of 10 big-league seasons, took to Instagram to write “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs.” Morrison subsequently deleted the post.
I’m a Dodgers fan living in Houston, and I have to have a Houston Asterisks t-shirt. Are these being sold somewhere?
I want a 2017 Dodgers World Champions T-shirt.
Red Sox dismiss Alex Cora
Now the Mets need to do the same with Beltran.
per MLBTR – part of statement from Red Sox
“Today we met to discuss the Commissioner’s report related to the Houston Astros investigation. Given the findings and the Commissioner’s ruling, we collectively decided that it would not be possible for Alex to effectively lead the club going forward and we mutually agreed to part ways.”
Even Ray Charles can see that!
I haven’t read much anything on this issue but I am shocked that MLB was so light with it. I had received word from a very inside Dodgers uniformed source that MLB was leaning to a more strict punishment. F&%$ the Astros!!!!! and that whole city!!!
It’s not like Houston was ever a great place to live.
Bravo.
Donaldson to the Twins for 4 years….
Good.
The Twins will have to be reckoned with in 2020… if they can pitch!
https://youtu.be/dYnpPEC58Mc
What’s your point?
Other uses for trash cans.
Is that a fastball or a curve?
I think that the punishment was much too light. The owners set up the system where they could at most be fined $5 million, which to most of them is nothing, it just cuts a bit off the profits, which went up when they won. GMs and managers can be replaced. Four draft choices in two years is not much , particularly to a franchise which has the very low choices in each round .
I would like to have seen something like no choices for the next season,, and then no choice in the first four rounds the next season.. Also banning from postseason play for at least a year. They do that in college sports, and that environment us certainly not administered as it should be. In other words, actually punish them, not just act like yo u are doing something when you are doing very little. I agreed with the Rose lifetime suspension, but that was base on how a manager who bets on games involving his team can not be trusted to manage without reference to the money he has on a given game, thus making the sport untrustworthy. Well, if that merits a lifetime suspension, how does actually cheating in the games not warrant a harsh sentence.
As to the Dodgers deserving the title, we may well have won it if the Astros had not cheated, but we still had our chances. Certainly it is very frustrating that it was not an even field. I suppose that the Yankees, who lost to the Astros in seven games in the ALCS in ’17, might also claim that they would have won but for the cheating., so hat t the World Series should have featured them against the Dodgers. That is the problem with cheating,: you cannot prove that the team which won did so just because of the cheating, so they get to keep the title, which is worth more than the fines or other things they are levied with. Until the punishment for cheating is enough to keep people from doing it, it will not do what is in intended to.This is very unfortunately true in other areas as well.
A question on ethics. If an astute baseball person interested in being hired as an outside consultant were to record and analyze the live feed of every ballgame and then analyzed the catcher’s pitch calling, would it be illegal for a team to purchase this information and teach their players to use this info when on 2nd base to signal the batter and/or bench regarding the next pitch to be delivered?
A lot of that information is already available.
However, it is technically illegal to steal signs. although it is condoned if you are not using electronic means during a live game.