It’s been said that baseball is one of the most “conservative” of all major sports. Baseball players, managers, coaches, executives, and owners typically succumb to the notion that once a particular idea or system gains broad acceptance, it is almost impossible to change. As one author stated: “Baseball’s ‘Conventional Wisdom’ is, at times, venerated as inviolable dogma akin to Holy Scripture. Woe be unto the those unto ye heretics who question the value of ‘Small Ball,’ Batting Average, or the Speedy Lead‑Off hitter.” Despite the many changes that are happening in our culture, baseball (albeit not as much as golf), continues to hang onto the “traditional” way of doing things and looks with disdain on any attempts to change the game, even if it’s for the better. Farhan Zaidi once asked a group of reporters and fans “If I told you using an opener would definitely improve your chances of winning on a certain day, how many of you would still not want to use it?” I suspect many in his audience would have answered positively. Why? Because that’s just not how it’s been done. He went on to lament: “I guess they’d rather lose traditionally than win nontraditionally.”
The phrase “conventional wisdom” was born when John Kenneth Galbraith coined it in his 1958 screed, “The Affluent Society.” For Galbraith, “conventional wisdom”—the stifling conformity of elite opinion—was just another manifestation of the problem. “Society, he concluded, rewards those who repeat old verities, rather than skeptics or innovators.”
Without getting into an exhaustive dissertation on“conventional wisdom” I can tell you that it has been defined as a:
“generally accepted belief, opinion, judgment, or prediction about a particular matter Conventional wisdom is, by definition, a generally accepted theory or belief. Any action or idea that is contrary to conventional wisdom is, therefore, generally not accepted, and the person propounding it is considered wrongheaded and counter-cultural – that is, until the radical is proven right, and the new idea replaces the old.”
As Albert Einstein said: “The only sure way to never make mistakes is to have no new ideas.” Conventional wisdom can also be defined as ideas so accepted they go unquestioned. Unfortunately, conventional wisdom is often wrong. Two great examples of that are: millions of people once believed that the Earth is flat, and millions also believed that the Earth is the center of the universe. Obviously, those millions were very wrong! Those, like Galileo, who believed otherwise were ridiculed for their beliefs. Just because millions of people believe a foolish thing, doesn’t make it any less foolish.
In fact, in applying it to life and baseball, the conventional wisdom is, in short, that conventional wisdom is generally wrong. Someone once wrote: “It takes a visionary to ask, ‘What would happen if I did the opposite?’” Now that seems like and is a pretty simple question. Moreover, in theory, it’s not hard to do the opposite – you just do it. But of course, it’s not that easy. Doing things differently from everyone else can be scary. First, it invites criticism and skepticism and, second, it makes people uncomfortable. Yet, that is what has led to virtually every breakthrough idea that has contributed to human progress.
These are some historical examples of foolish “conventional wisdom: “I think there might be a world market for maybe five computers.” (Thomas Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943). “It will be gone by June.” Variety magazine, 1955(referring to rock ‘n roll); “Heavier‑than‑air flying machines are impossible!” Lord Kelvin, president of the Royal Society, 1895.
In sports, probably one of the most daring examples of attacking conventional wisdom was the introduction of the “Fosbury Flop” in high-jumping. Before the “Fosbury Flop,” all high jumpers went over the bar feet first, one leg at a time in a scissor action. Because he couldn’t compete with taller and more athletic jumpers, Dick Fosbury decided he would try a different style. He jumped with his back to the bar, clearing the bar face up and his back down. No one had ever done that before. He was ridiculed, and even his coach urged him to abandon this weird technique. A few years later, he was on the podium in Mexico, receiving a gold medal in the high jump, having set several new records in the high-jump. Now, ironically, conventional wisdom tells us that using the “Fosbury Flop” is the only way to succeed in the high jump. That is, of course, until it no longer is.
Baseball is rife with its conventional wisdom. Baseball has long been part of a “herd” mentality. And, a herd, by its very nature, moves in the same direction long beyond the point when it makes sense to continue to do so. For example, today we take listening to a ball game on the radio for granted. Did you know that baseball broadcast it’s first game on August 15, 1921? However, it wasn’t for another 15 years that a major league owner agreed to allow his team’s entire season to be broadcast on the radio. Why? Conventional Wisdom. Baseball owners were convinced that free radio broadcasts would negatively affect ballpark attendance. They couldn’t imagine why someone would pay to attend a game when they could sit in the comfort of their home and listen to it for free? The owners just couldn’t fathom the idea that this might actually increase attendance. But it did.
Today I want to look at one area where conventional wisdom is being challenged. That’s in the use of a lead-off hitter.
I will readily admit, that one of my current pet peeves is the Dodger’s lack of a “true” lead-off hitter. I grew up with Maury Wills, Davey Lopes, Steve Sax, Brett Butler, Rafael Furcal, etc., and because of that, I find it very difficult to accept Joc Pederson hitting lead-off. “Conventional wisdom” has always told me that you need a player who has speed, good bat to ball skills, ability to draw a walk, work the count. The prototypical leadoff hitter is older than batting helmets, Wrigley Field, and the World Series. In his book “A Game of Inches”, baseball historian Peter Morris cites an 1898 Sporting Life article that explained, “It is customary to have a small, active fellow who can hit, run and steal bases, and also worry a pitcher into a preliminary base on balls, as a leader in the list.” For more than a century, that vision of the leadoff hitter persisted; three‑quarters of small, active fellow David Eckstein’s career plate appearances came from the 1‑hole, for instance, despite him posting a career batting line 8 percent worse than average. The old‑school book says to put a speedy guy up top. Power isn’t important, and OBP is nice but comes second to speed.
Speed was a mandatorily required trait for generations of leadoff men: Of the 20 players with the most stolen bases since lineup data has been recorded (since 1913), 15 spent the majority of their careers in the leadoff spot. But, approximately a decade ago, the sabermetric analysis revealed that on‑base skill, not speed, is the most vital asset for a no. 1 hitter. It’s less important that a leadoff man be able to steal a base than that he be able to reach base at all. As Cleveland manager Terry Francona summarized when explaining his decision to hit Carlos Santana first, “On‑base percentage for your guys up in the order is important because you’re going to have your best run producers behind them.” Also, the higher a player appears in the order, the more plate appearances he will have, and those extra at-bats should go to the best hitters in a lineup, not just the fastest ones. “You know, the computer will tell you that your best hitter should hit first, and your second‑best hitter should hit second, your third‑best hitter should hit third,” said Buck Showalter. “The whole idea is to get them to the plate as many times as possible, and ¼ sometimes I think that might be correct. If you led off your best player, hit him first instead of third or fourth, you’d probably get him 40 or 50 more at‑bats in a year.” Showalter is an “old school baseball guy”, who understands the new trend.
“Some of the stereotypes that come with ‘Is the leadoff hitter a small, scrappy, on‑base machine?’ versus me sending up a 6‑foot‑3, 225‑pound George Springer, it might look different,” Astros manager A.J. Hinch says. “But what we’re after is scoring the most runs and putting your most dangerous hitters to get the most at‑bats is an effective way to do that.” “From pitch one of the game, our opponent has to deal with virtually every outcome,” Hinch says, as Springer “can drive the ball out of the ballpark or he can work a walk, and that’s a rarity.” Similar thinking influenced Joe Maddon’s decision to give Kyle Schwarber(if ever there is an antitypical leadoff hitter it is Schwarber) the Cubs’ leadoff reins; as he told reporters: “a lineup with the left‑handed masher at the top is formidable, so it’s uncomfortable from the other side.” Accordingly, as analytics/sabermetrics continue to spread throughout MLB front offices, the leadoff role has shifted even further from its traditional stereotype. Teams now realize that it’s important to place their best hitters at the top of the order, giving more plate appearances to players who both get on base and can hit home runs.
This has led some, unfairly, to create an image that those who adhere to sabermetrics want the plodding, three‑true‑outcomes hitter who draws walks, strikes out and hits home runs. And that all those who adhere to some form of sabermetrics abhor the stolen base. That’s not true. It is not just any base‑stealing that sabermetrics scowls at, it is “bad” base‑stealing. Many old school baseball purists praise raw stolen base numbers without looking at the caught‑stealing numbers that were giving away outs. Studies have shown that the “break‑even” rate for stolen base attempts is at about 73%, depending on the situation. Very few base stealers are successful at that rate. So, rather than give away outs, they started to look in a new direction.
Who is the best prototype for the ideal leadoff hitter? Unquestionably, it would be Rickey Henderson. Just ask him, he’ll tell you he was the greatest of all time. Most probably, he was. In 1980, the average team got 46 steals and only 7 home runs from its leadoff slot(Lopes was an early exception). Then came Henderson. Henderson certainly stole a lot of bases, as he easily holds the all‑time record. However, he also held the record for walks (before Barry Bonds), and he hit 297 career home runs. Henderson could do it all, and in the process, he changed the idea of what a leadoff hitter could be: someone who got on base and who could hit with power. There will those that point out Ichiro, Wade Boggs or other successful lead-off hitters that were not necessarily cut from the Rickey Henderson cloth. And, I won’t argue against them, other than to say there are exceptions to all rules and my point is there are no hard and fast(see what I did there?) stereotypes for leadoff hitters.
That brings me back to Joc Pederson. Let me say first and foremost that I have no objection to Joc Pederson as a player. He hits lots of home runs, although most seem to be solo home runs. He also plays a passable defense in left or right field. I just don’t view him as a lead-off hitter. For one, he can’t hit left-handed pitching, so he will always be part of a platoon, necessitating 2 lead-off hitters. Secondly, he just strikes out too much for my taste. Yet when I compared his statistics to the above mentioned Dodger leadoff hitters yesteryear, his walks and on-base percentage are comparable to most of them. I’m not going to take the time to put forth each hitter’s statistics as time is a consideration for me in writing this article. I will concede that Joc doesn’t have as high a batting average as the others, but, I’ve learned that batting average is a statistic that’s not valued as much as it was in the past. But, for the limited number of at-bats that Joc gets, compared to the others, he scores a high percentage of runs and he has a decent On Base Percentage. His on-base percentage is surprisingly higher than Wills’ OBP. His OBP was similar to that of Furcal, it is similar to Lopes and Sax and it was similar to Brett Butler’s OBP, that is until Butler reached age 30, and he shifted things to another gear and performed much better than Pederson.
So, has this research changed my opinion on Joc Pederson as a lead-off hitter? No, I still think he strikes out too much. But I also realize that players like Rickey Henderson do not grow on trees. And, while I still hold onto a more traditional view of lead-off hitters, I’ve come to realize by looking at the stats, that Joc isn’t that terrible in the lead-off spot. He’s a far cry better than Dee Gordon for example. Presently, the Dodgers do not have a better option at lead-off. Maybe Gavin Lux or Alex Verdugo will become terrific lead-off hitters, but they’re not there yet.
Then again, the RedSox can always be so kind and send Mookie Betts our way. I wouldn’t mind George Springer either. Perhaps MLB will send him over as punishment to the Astros for their cheating ways. A man can dream, can’t he?
Guess Things Happen that Way, Johnny Cash
Well the Dodgers added Alex Wood. Wood actually has better stats as a reliever than Will Harris whom I wanted Friedman to get. The question is will Wood take a job as a reliever.
One more move Friedman. Just one more move, get Ken Giles.
I think Treinen took the place that might have gone to Giles who signed a $9.6M contract with Blue Jays. Unless Blue Jays want to trade Giles for Kelly, I don’t see Giles in the Dodgers plans — at least not until the trade deadline. It will be interesting to see how Wood’s incentives are structured — perhaps a combination of starts, games pitched, innings, or? Someone must be removed from the 40 man roster with the addition of Wood.
Sborz?
Or Sadler, or Kolarek. Dodger staff remains intrigued with Kolarek, so Sadler or Sborz. Or some unannounced trade.
I think a trade is likely — there are several players who could be headed elsewhere, Sadler with no remaining options seems like a prime candidate.
If Dodgers are going to keep both Kiké and CT3 then my guess is Tyler White who is out of minor league options — he might even clear waivers and agree to a OKC assignment, or head to Japan / Korea
Gonsolin will surprise you, if he recovers his fast ball he is in any position in the bullpen, any position.
Let the kids play !!!
One thing people overlook re homeruns and batting average. You can get 4 singles in a game and not score or you can strike out 3 times and then hit a homerun. And you score every time you hit a homerun. Not that I like strikeouts, but the first batter is batting .1000 with 4 total based and no runs, the second batter is batting .250 with 4 total based and 1 run.
Have you noticed the 40 man is already full? And they just signed Alex Wood! During the off season can they have more than 40, or does this mean there is a trade about to happen or a player about to be released?
They have to be at 40, not counting the 60 day IL.
Something has to happen in the next day or two.
Thank you, d2d, for the insightful column. I am hoping Lux can become our next lead-off batter.
Oops. 2d2. Sorry ’bout that.
Very thoughtful post 2d2. I’m another one who misses the old prototype of a leadoff guy even though statistically it might not be the best way to go.
Anyone know how long they have to actually add Wood to the roster?
Thinking about Wood, Treinen and Nelson. If only Cole would have been injured last year then maybe AF ……..
But we need to remember that not all ideas are equal and some are born of necessity or desperation. Interesting piece, 2D2.
It’s very possible the Dodgers will coach Wood back up into being a serviceable SP and then flip him for a nice prospect. Same thing with Nelson.
With the additions of Nelson, Ramos, Treinen and Wood who was taken off the 40 man roster?
Did you guys see the video of Josiah Gray on the Dodgers web page? He seems like a very bright, articulate, and decent young man.
He’s also very good and I think he could arrive early… like in 2020!
I, also, like a true lead off hitter with speed and the ability to steal a base now although I think Joc has done a decent job last year. Very informative article 2D2. Thank you.
I have no wisdom, conventional or otherwise. But seems to me a leadoff hitter with a high OBP and speed could not only steal a base but be a distraction for the # 2 and 3 hitters and possibly get them more fastballs. Seems to me you would want your high OBP guy batting in front of your sluggers and not behind them. We don’t have a guy like that and I know analytics doesn’t favor base stealing. They favor homers and strikeouts over singles and stealing
Also Cassidy, I know it does not seem to be a part of the game anymore but I would like to see more bunting. It can move a player over and also be a weapon sometimes. I hope in ST, there is lots of bunting practice going on. Just my wish.
Especially with all the shifts. Totally agree BlueMom! Take the free base!
Bunting is especially effective in beating the shift. Ok, Cassidy best me to it.
WOW!!!!!!!!!!
Luhnow and Hinch suspended for entire 2020 season, Astros fined $5 million and a loss of 1st and 2nd round draft picks for 2020 and 2021 season. Report indicates it was a season long cheating scheme and Luhnow and Hinch did nothing to stop it.
Manfred should have vacated the 2017 WS championship. Cora developed both the Astros and Red Sox cheating scandal. Manfred withholding discipline until the investigation regarding the Red Sox is completed. Me thinks Cora will be be expelled from ever being involved in MLB.
How can the Braves GM be banned permanently for breaking international signing rules, but cheating in the WS gets you a 1 year suspension?
I don’t care if they keep their trophy, it will always have a stink to it. But is this really going to deter teams from trying this again?
This is less than a slap on the wrist. Pour Buck Weaver isn’t rolling over in his grave, he’s crawling out just to write a new letter to the Commissioner.
Friedman now owns a virtual World Series Championship. Schedule the virtual parade.
Well, Cora will at least get the same suspension as them.
Manfred has dropped the hammer.
This will cripple the Astros player development. Their window has closed!
2d2, I really enjoyed the way you weaved all the philosophy into your post on baseball’s conventional wisdom.
A single rarely drives a runner in from first base and a stolen base attempt generates outs for the majority of players than success. A runner at second is stranded more often than scores.
Give me a player who can hit a home run in his third or fourth at bat against an ace instead of a single every time. That said, I would prefer for Joc to hit fifth but the competition for that spot is fortunately stiff. Turner could be the best lead off hitter but he is too clutch with runners on base to move him from an RBI spot.
No pitcher wants the other team to get the first run and Joc hitting lead off puts pressure on the pitcher at pitch one. There’s that.
While we are talking about Joc, his recent ranking as the 7th best left fielder in the NL was well timed for his upcoming arbitration hearing.
The Dodgers need a strong lefty reliever to complement Baez, Trienen, and Jansen. Wood and Fergusson hopefully will be those pitchers. Wood, Stripling, and Fergusson should be able to pitch 3 innings which will help reduce the number of relief pitchers used in a game when a young starter leaves after 5 or 6 innings.
I’m still getting used to the best hitter hitting second.
One year suspensions for Luhnow and Hinch are appropriate. We still have to wait on Cora. He could get a couple of years; one for Houston and one for Bosox.
Taubman lifetime ban is appropriate.
Losing 1st and 2nd round picks for 2020 and 2021 is appropriate but it will not really be a huge factor as that will be Pick #30 and 70 (approximately) for 2020. Houston is still good for 2020, so the 2021 picks will be high as well.
$5MM fine is really inconsequential. They made more than $5MM for winning the WS. But that is the most they can fine.
MLB should have stripped Houston of the 2017 WS. And they should have stripped them of some international free agent dollars as well as the draft picks.
I’m very surprised there wasn’t some type of international spending restriction. I think that would have hurt more than the draft pick losses.
Nothing more than a tap (not a slap) on the wrist for the Houston organization. Should have been fined for each game in which cheating occurred, and return of all 2017 post season monies received from MLB. Although I agree with you about stripping the WS title, the gambling industry may have lobbied Manfred against taking that action. From the little I have read, it seems that Hinch may have been caught between a popular coach (Cora), player (Beltran), and other players benefiting from the cheating while knowing the right thing to do (apparently destroyed the monitor twice). Cora will undoubtedly receive harsher penalties, and Mets should rid themselves of Carlos Beltran.
I agree the fine was too light, but that is the highest amount pursuant to the League’s constitution. MLB’s hands were tied on that. Cora is going to get hit hard.
I do not gamble, so I did not even think of the gambling industry. I guess you are right that if MLB stripped the WS, then those with bets on the Dodgers would have standing??? I am also guessing that the casinos, etc. can say that while there was cheating, there was no evidence that it impacted the WS??? I have no idea how baseball gambling works, but you bring up an outstanding point.
I tried to find the MLB Constitution on line, but no luck. So the $5M may be a max, but if I am the commissioner I would have tried to make the fine applicable for each occurrence. I wonder if there may have been a negotiation between Manfred and owner Jim Crane whereby Luhnow and Hinch were fired (perhaps with a promise of other terminations) that limited the team’s punishment?
https://ipmall.law.unh.edu/sites/default/files/hosted_resources/SportsEntLaw_Institute/League%20Constitutions%20&%20Bylaws/MLConsititutionJune2005Update.pdf
Thank you Mark
Luhnow and Hinch both fired.
I think I read something earlier today that stated the $5 million was the max amount that MLB was allowed to fine the team. If so, that rule needs to be changed.
Also, although the Dodgers cannot rightfully be awarded the to title of World Champs, I think at the very least every Dodger who received a losing WS share in 2017 should be awarded the difference between a winning and losing share with interest, to be paid by the Astros.
None of the above makes things right, but nothing really can.
Conventional wisdom says “once a cheater, always a cheater!” I’m sure we will never hear the “full” story of what went on, but it seems to me the punishment is a little light.
I find it odd that the MLB office determined that the sign-stealing scheme was largely player driven (at least that was what was said in the article I read on mlb.com) but yet not a single player was sanctioned in any way.
It seems light to me. The draft picks I’m good with. That will hurt. But $5m? What’s that..One month of beer profits?
I’m glad to see Luhnow and Hinch fired. But one year wasn’t enough.
And players involved should receive SOME kind of something. A fine on a % of their salary for a year, maybe? Something!
2017 made household names out of several players on the team. Seems to me this sets a terrible precedence. Punish coaches and let the players walk. When the players were literally the most important aspect of the scheme. Knowing what pitch is coming doesn’t help unless the batter at the plate is a willing participant.
I agree, too light. But it is likely that Luhnow will never again work in MLB with the stigma of suspension and the culture that apparently permeated throughout the offices. Hinch may be in the same boat as Luhnow, but from what I have read he attempted to stop the cheating, just did not go far enough. The hypocrisy of the players involved in the cheating really chaps my hide. They point their guilty fingers at Yu Darvish for tipping pitches when it is likely that they were actually being informed what pitches were coming.
Difference is players have a union, GMs & Execs don’t.
Would you agree to lose two years of draft picks, get fine $5 Million Dollars and suspended for 1 year in exchange for winning a World Series?
Hell Yeah!
Unless it costs me my job…
The owner would make that deal every year — he can always find other GM’s and managers
Wonder how Dave Roberts is feeling today towards his good pal AJ Hinch?
I’m hoping Kershaw, Wood and Darvis sleep better and without flashbacks.
Something should of happened to .the players involved. Sixty days for everyone who used it. What about Pete Rose now. Nothing for the players. Too light of a punishment.
The one thing that really gets to me is that this started with players and they’re the only ones who aren’t getting punished. Not only do they keep their WS win and everything that went with it (over 400k per player among other things, plus a ring and added endorsements) but they can now go out and compete unencumbered in 2020 with absolutely no penalty. That’s absolutely ridiculous.
I would have stripped the Astros of their2017 WS win and left the title vacant for that year and I would now rule that the 2020 Astros are not eligible for post season play. They haven’t signed anyone of note this off season that I recall but I would allow anyone who signed as a free agent this winter to void his contract if he so chooses.
I agree STB. I’ve never thought much of the NCAA stripping teams of titles, but if there was ever a case of that type of punishment fitting the crime. This is it.. The Astros should have been singled out forever in the history of MLB as cheaters. They should be there right with the Black Sox in MLB as a team who did the wrong thing. Strip them of their title. Make it stand out as the only team ever to be stripped of a title.
Say it ain’t so Joe!
They should not be able to participate in post season.
Changing subjects a bit:
“Early each January, all 30 MLB teams are asked to send the 3-4 prospects from their organization to attend the Rookie Career Development Program (RCDP) at the Lansdowne Resort and Spa in Leesburg, Va.
The RCDP is joint venture between the Major League Baseball Players Association and the Commissioner’s Office, and the Players designated by their Clubs to attend the program are generally those that they believe will spend their first significant amount of time in the major leagues in the upcoming season.
The intensive four-day orientation program seeks to help prepare the young players for the many ways their lives may change once they hit “The Show” – from dealing with media to handling their finances to sorting through competing demands for their time and tips on proper nutrition and other health-related topics. There’s even a day dedicated to Spanish-speaking Players, which allows them an opportunity to interact in their native language and connect with some of the game’s top Latin-born former Major Leaguers.
All 30 Major League organizations send up-and-coming players on the cusp of reaching the big leagues to help them avoid the kinds of speed bumps or pitfalls that can keep them from reaching their on-field potential.”
Dodger participants this year are: Josiah Gray, RHP; DJ Peters, OF; Victor Gonzalez, LHP; Zach McKinstry, OF
This might give us some insight as to who the Dodgers value in the minors and which players might get some time with the big club in 2020.
Really pleased to see Gonzalez and McKinstry there. They have been two of my sleepers for quite some time. Glad to see they are valued.
Today’s heresy is tomorrow’s orthodoxy.
The Astros should be referred to as the Asterisks as has been said before with an asterisk used as the logo on their hats for 2020.
Did Kemp and Piazza get cheated out of MVP awards by PED users or were they just not caught?
The central issue is that the Houston Astros received a penalty because it was proven that they cheated.
Forget if the sanction was adequate, the most important thing is that this championship is stained and that stain is not erased by my father God for ever and ever, that will be the greatest sanction, that organization will have the stigma that they do not have class, who are thieves and will never have the respect and admiration of anyone.
Having class, playing the game the right way, having the respect and admiration of all fans is more valuable than a World Series championship and that will never be the Houston Astros, that will be their real sanction.
The Houston Astros will seek to recover all that in the coming years, decades, etc. and will never succeed, they will always be remembered as the team that cheated.
Time cures all HD.
No one has any less respect for the White Sox today even though they (many years ago, granted) endured the Black Sox scandal. They may have committed the only offense worse than cheating to win and that is trying to lose.
Yes, people realize that the Black Sox were the same organization as today’s White Sox but don’t hold it against them.
The only question is how long will it take to remove the stain and in that regard I agree that it will be a long, long time.
Nope, That is very different, that was a group of players who cheated against their own team, the White Sox.
You cannot compare that case with that of the Astros, it is very different the Astros cheated to benefit themselves, as a team, as an organization.
Kennesaw Mountain Landis is rolling over in his grave.
I’m pretty sure Pete Rose was never found guilty of betting on his team to lose. I feel what the Astros and possibly Red Sox have done is much worse than gambling on your own team to win. These players aren’t children. They are grown men and they know right from wrong. I’ve heard that Carlos Correa couldn’t understand why Mike Fiers spilled the beans on their cheating as they had won a championship together. Sounds to me like he has no remorse at all. Maybe I’m hard core but to make sure this NEVER happens again, I feel Hinch, Luhnow and all players found to be involved should be banned from baseball for life. Sure the players union will balk and it would end up in court but many lives, reputations, careers and pocketbooks have been affected. The integrity of the game is at stake. To not punish the players is ludicrous. Just like excluding the player with the most hits EVER from the HOF is ludicrous.
I never thought I’d hate a team more than I hate the Giants. Well scoot over SF, Houston has now taken the top spot.
But more importantly, I know it’s been discussed on this board that perhaps after these penalties come down, the astros might have or need to have a fire sale, and we can go pounce on Greinke or Springer or someone. But now that Hou has no GM, I’m guessing they won’t be making any moves anytime soon. Maybe if they start off slowly, they’ll have their firesale in July. But right now, I’d guess their store isn’t open for business.
Alex Cora has to get a harsh punishment, right?? He was much worse than Hinch or Luhnow.
I guess the problem with suspending players is many of them are on other teams. I would still do it, though. And, claw back everyone’s WS bonus check.
Cora should get a lifetime ban as far as I’m concerned. Hinch and Luhnow are facing that with another penalty. Cora instigated the entire thing and then went on to break rules in Boston. I’m betting he gets between 2 years and a lifetime ban. Beltran gets rewarded with a mangers gig. They Mets should can him.
~
Let’s see, the Astros get fined $5 million which is the max, but most likely save more than that in draft pick compensation for their lost picks in the late portion of rounds 1 and 2. They can just spend the money on free-agents or help retain their cheating players.
~
They absolutely should have been stripped of their championship. Doesn’t need to go to the Dodgers, but if they’re truly to be made an example of then the title should have been vacated.
Totally off subject, I asked above if anyone knows how long the FO has to remove someone from the 40-man roster in order to make room for Wood. Anyone know the answer to that? Or has someone already been removed and I just didn’t hear about it?
I apologize for this mundane question in the midst of what we’re discussing.
Can’t answer your question. But I wonder if we’ve agreed to terms with Wood and not officially signed him yet, just because we don’t know what roster move to make yet?
Perhaps when Joc, Verdugo, etc go to Boston for Betts, we’ll have room on the 40 man
They have to make a move when Wood’s deal is finalized… maybe it’s not complete?
My understanding, a roster spot does not have to be opened until the Commissioner’s office approves the contract; that process can take up to 20 days after receipt of contract (teams are required to submit contracts immediately after signing), but usually is much sooner. Once the contract is approved the player must be added to the 40 man roster.
The Astro’s owner should also fire the entire 2017-2020 coaching staff as well (at least those still on staff during the cheating period). There is no freaking way they could claim ignorance when some asshat is banging a metal garbage can three feet from the freaking dugout. In the least you would think they would ask “what the hell is all the banging about?”
As far as I am concerned there is guilt by association in this instance and if the owner really wanted to send a clear message he would can the entire coaching (i.e. management staff) and start clean, even if the investigation didn’t specifically identify them as being involved.
Guilt by omission. Have you seen the video clip where White Sox pitcher Danny Farquhar steps off the mound and talks to his catcher when he heard the banging and thought something was up? If Farquhar can hear the banging from the mound with 40,000 fans screaming you would think someone on the coaching staff would have inquired.
It’s called character….it’s what you do even when no one is watching. It’s clear to me the Astros field staff, (manager, bench coach, base coaches, pitching coach etc) all lacked character and integrity and should be fired for allowing/endorsing or being culpable and negligent.
SPOT ON!
Sooo…Hinch is available in 2021?
Even you can see that!
Just a thought for all of the… Critics
Hinch has a degree in psychology from Stanford University.
On January 13, 2020, Hinch was suspended by MLB for one year after an investigation into sign stealing by the Astros, and was fired by the team.
I may be confusing Hinch with another Manager but I always thought he was all too eager to instruct his pitchers to throw at hitters if one of his hitters got an inside pitch.
I don’t recall Hinch having that reputation (like Clint Hurdle), but I don’t doubt that he expected his pitchers to protect their hitters.
AJ Hinch statement: “I appreciate Commissioner Manfred’s unwavering commitment to upholding the best interests of baseball. I regret being connected to these events, am disappointed in our club’s actions within this timeline, and I accept the Commissioner’s decision.
As a leader and Major League Manager, it is my responsibility to lead players and staff with integrity that represents the game in the best possible way. While the evidence consistently showed I didn’t endorse or participate in the sign stealing practices, I failed to stop them and I am deeply sorry.
I apologize to Mr. Crane for all negative reflections this may have had on him and the Astros organization. To the fans, thank you for your continued support through this challenging time – and for this team. I apologize to all of you for our mistakes but I’m confident we will learn from it – and I personally commit to work tirelessly to ensure I do.
My time in Houston has provided some of the greatest moments in my career and those memories will always be near and dear to me and my family. I regret that my time with the Astros has ended, but will always be a supporter of the club, players, and staff I’ve had the privilege of working alongside. I wish them the best in the future of the game I love.”
my statement to him, “Go F yourself”
Especially after he flat out lied about it to the media.
And so begins the A.J. Hinch apology tour to restore his tarnished reputation.
This whole saga just leaves an empty feeling. We got screwed. We always seem to get screwed. From ‘51 in Brooklyn to 2018 in L.A. The 2017 title is the one that stings the most. Best LA Dodger team I ever witnessed. What I’ll never understand is if Alex Wood knew to change signs every 10 pitches, why didn’t the rest of the staff follow his lead?
Regarding Wood changing signs, that is a very good question. And, it wasn’t just Wood, Barnes was the catcher – why wouldn’t he pass it along? Perhaps he did, and the other pitchers chose to ignore?
Changing signs was something that Wood did regularly with Barnes anyway. He just made the change more often. If I remember correctly, something like from every 15 pitches to every 10 pitches. I did not get the impression that he believed he knew that what he was doing was preventing his signs from being picked up routinely, but he did want to minimize the opportunity for him. Wood just had a feeling something was amiss and believed that by changing his normal routine more that it would work. It did, but he had no idea that what he was doing was something that every pitcher should have done.
From Yu Darvish:
If the Dodgers are planning a 2017 World Series parade, I would love to join! So if that is in the works, can someone make a Yu Garbage Jersey for me?