I first tuned in to a Dodger game on the radio – solely by accident – on April 19, 1952. I know the date as all three outfielders – Andy Pafko, Duke Snider, Carl Furillo – hit home runs which was the only time they did so in 1952. Also, as a youngster, I did know of the Bobby Thompson home run in 1951. I turned the radio dial looking for the Amos and Andy Show on a Saturday evening and caught the voice of Vin Scully with a Dodger broadcast. It was in mid-game and Duke’s was the first home run I had ever heard called. I kept score for every game during the season that I heard on homemade score sheets as shown to me by my little league coach. I can’t imagine how I would value those now if they had not gone the same route as many baseball cards at the time.
I soon started to pick favorites although I followed every Dodger. Duke’s home run captured me although perhaps not as much as Vin’s voice. Duke became my first baseball hero and Carl Erskine became my favorite Dodger pitcher. I can still recall his then record breaking 14 strikeouts against the hated Yankees on October 2, 1953 in Game-3 of the World Series.
I quickly learned much about the game at the professional level, things like bunting, pinch-hitting, base stealing and what went on in the bullpen. When starting pitchers got into trouble, I would anxiously wait for Vin to advise me that Jim Hughes or Clem Labine were warming up in the bullpen. In due course. Clem Labine became my favorite Dodger relief pitcher and has remained so to this day because of the roles he played with the Dodgers, not pigeon-holed into a single inning or against a sole right-handed batter. I can recall claiming that Boston Bruin right-winger, Leo Labine, pronounced his name incorrectly because it was pronounced “Labeen”.
Labine was born in Lincoln, Rhode Island and grew up in nearby Woonsocket, where he attended high school. The son of French-Canadian parents, he was blessed with a mentality to play football and hockey but baseball was his true love. He was signed by the Dodgers in 1944 after a botched attempt by the Boston Braves to sign him. He began his professional career with the Newport News Dodgers of the Piedmont League but shortly after turning 18 and with World War II not yet concluded he volunteered for the paratroopers.
Labine missed the 1945 season as well as most of 1946 while in the military and he pitched only 14 innings with the Newport News Dodgers.
Over the next five years he worked his way through the Dodgers minor league system making stops with the Asheville Tourists, Greenville Spinners, Pueblo Dodgers and two years with the AAA St. Paul Saints of the American Association.
After making 20 appearances with the Saints in 1951, Labine graduated to MLB beginning an 11-year career with the Dodgers. During his career with the Dodgers – in Brooklyn and Los Angeles – he made 425 appearances, starting 37 games, finishing 242 and pitching in 146 games in some other capacity. At the end of his career with the Dodgers he was the all-time leader in pitching appearances as a Dodger, a record that stood until broken by Don Drysdale in 1968.
Labine may well have been the precursor to the role that has evolved into the modern day closer. During his time there were no signature songs that drummed the closer into the game, saves were not recorded as a pitching statistic, the slider had not yet come into its own and big contracts were not awarded to relievers as pitching in relief often simply meant the pitcher was thought not to be good enough to start. Yet he would have been a major target for free agency in the present era, sought after as a unique talent.
Robert Creamer in Sports Illustrated went so far as to describe Labine as the “King of the Bullpen.” He was baseball’s premier ‘closer’ two decades before the term ‘closer’ was ever used. He led the League in ‘saves’ for years – a decade before ‘saves’ were even tallied. He was twice an All Star and three times a World Series Champion. As a Brooklyn Dodger, he ended with a remarkable career World Series ERA of 1.65 and is a member of the Brooklyn Dodgers Baseball Hall of Fame.
In his day relievers were not valued as they are today, as starters were expected to pitch long into the game and pitch a complete game as often as possible, maybe every four days. However, that was not the case with Labine. He was valued by his teammates and especially by his Hall of Fame manager Walter Alston.
But unlike the ace closers of today, Labine was used by manager Walter Alston when the game was at a crucial stage. In 1956, for example, the righty was summoned in the 7th inning 16 times, and he pitched five innings of relief three times that season. For six consecutive years he pitched 104 or more innings in each season topping out at 144 in 1955.
So what was special about Clem Labine? He didn’t have an over-powering fastball but he most certainly was not without weapons. Perhaps his greatest gift was his mentality.
Labine had, in the words of his former Brooklyn Dodgers teammate Ralph Branca, “the right equipment to be a reliever.” His sinker induced many a double play, and he possessed a sharp overhand curve that he could throw to righties and lefties. But that’s not what made Labine one of the game’s first great closers. “He also had courage,” says Branca of Labine. “He really welcomed the challenge of being a reliever. He was a tough bird who loved to be in a crucial spot.”
Additionally Labine knew he did not have strike every hitter out. The 6’0” – 180 lb right-hander was only too happy to have batters hit ground balls, regardless of how sharply, and what pitcher wouldn’t be under those circumstances under which he pitched.
“So you’re not gonna hit a lot of line drives off of me, just a lot of ground balls. And don’t forget who we had scooping them up – Gilly (Gil Hodges), (Jackie) Robinson, (Pee Wee) Reese, and (Billy) Cox.”
Labine, not only pitched in relief when it was not popular to do so, he preferred that role. On occasion he picked up Carl Erskine on a day when “Oisk” needed some help, which was not too often. Erskine thought Labine could easily have started in his place if need be.
“I always thought Clem would’ve had a great career as a starting pitcher,” said Erskine. “But he told me ‘I don’t want to start. I liked the pressure of coming into the game with everything on the line. I could also do it more often as a reliever.’”
The 1955 World Series in which the Dodgers defeated the New York Yankees four games to three to win their first World Championship is a classic example of the contribution Labine made to the team in an almost unnoticed fashion and in a high pressure situation.
He appeared in four games – closing all four – in the 1955 World Series, winning one and saving one on back-to-back days. In Game-4 he pitched four innings retiring 11 of the final 12 batters and got the victory, as the Dodgers came from behind to top the Yankees 8-5 and tie the Series at two victories apiece. That was on one of those rare occasions when he did have to pick up Erskine. In Game-5 he pitched three innings in relief of Roger Craig, allowing a homer to Yogi Berra but inducing two double plays to preserve the 5-3 Dodgers win.
Vin Scully in his usual perceptiveness did not miss the contribution of Clem Labine in the Dodgers 1955 World Series run. After all his World Series contribution with the Dodgers over 10 appearances and a career 27.1 innings resulted in an ERA of 1.65 and a WHIP of 0.996. He loved the challenge and feared nothing on the diamond.
“Clem Labine was one of the main reasons the Dodgers won it all in 1955,” said the Hall of Fame broadcaster. “He had the heart of a lion and the intelligence of a wily fox … and he was a nice guy, too.”
Dodgers fans – not me at the time – will remember the 1951 loss by the Dodgers to the rival New York Giants when Bobby Thompson hit the “Shot Heard ‘Round the World” that eliminated the Dodgers from further playoff contention. Perhaps many will not remember that on the day prior to that fateful day, Labine threw a six-hit complete game at the Polo Grounds in the Dodgers’ 10-0 victory over the Giants in Game-2.
Dodger fans – myself included – will also remember, or perhaps have tried to forget, the perfect game defeat the Dodgers suffered at the hands of Don Larson and the New York Yankees on October 8,1956 in the fifth game of the World Series. Again, most likely not so many remember that the Dodgers staved off elimination in Game-6 of the series the next day by defeating Bullet Bob Turley and the Yankees 1-0 in ten innings. The Dodgers starter that day was none other than Clem Labine who pitched the complete game 10-inning shutout.
As mentioned Clem Labine did not have walk-up music and he did not have a singularly defined role. When there was a fire, at any point in a game, it may well have been his job to put it out or at least minimize the damage. The crew cut kid was somewhat a breed of his own and established his own ritual as the game progressed.
“If you had a lead, there was this thing where about the seventh or eighth inning, where he’d get up, sort of a ritual, and walk down to the bullpen,” the former Dodgers pitcher Roger Craig told Bob Cairns in Pen Men, an oral history of relief pitching. “Clem was kind of a cocky, arrogant type, which was good. I liked it. He’d fold his glove up and put it in his pocket. I can see him now, strutting down to the bullpen and the fans cheering.”
This amazing young man pitched his career almost in anonymity with the fans but not with the players that surrounded him – the several future Dodger HOF players – but also by those who played against him.;
Chicago Cubs manager Bob Scheffing was asked by a reporter, “If you had your choice of any one pitcher in the entire league, who would you pick?’ ‘Labine’, Scheffing said, without hesitation.”
Perhaps his former teammate, Tommy Lasorda, best summed up why Clem Labine did not receive the recognition that he so richly deserved.
“He played the game the way it was supposed to be played. He gave it everything he had, he got along with everyone and everyone loved him. He was one of the finest pitchers to ever play the game, but he was surrounded by too many stars.”
Clement Walter Labine, number 41, died at age 80 on March 2, 2007 in Vero Beach Florida. His former teammates and fans remember him, his constant smile and his ever-present crew cut well and with fondness.
I took yesterday off from talking baseball. But here is my take on the Dodgers post season and what to do in the off season.
All season long I’ve been warning you guys about:
1 Pollock’s inability to hit right handed pitching.
2 Seager’s inability to hit left handed pitching.
3 Joe Kelly’s career OPS against being north of 700 who got lucky in the 2018 post season.
Turns out all 3 had a pathetic post season.
The big elephant in the room was the lack of using Mr. October David Freese. He was not injured, he proved that starting game 1 and going 3 for 3 after coming into game 3. He hits both righties and lefties but better against righties, there is no reason to not start him in the playoffs period.
As for the pitching, the plan should have been going with regular season OPS against stats. That meant Rich Hill should have been used just like Kolarek was used as a loogy. Plus Gonsolin should have been on the post season roster instead of Kelly or Stripling and should have been the 4th starter.
Vs left handed batters:
Kolarek 369 OPS
Hill 532 OPS
Vs right handed batters:
May 476 OPS
Maeda 535 OPS
Urias 565 OPS
The lone reliever with good OPS stats during the regular season vs both right handed batters and left handed batters:
Baez 555 OPS vs RHB and 528 OPS vs LHB.
Unfortunately Baez and Urias didn’t perform well. But under different circumstances different results may have happened.
As for what to do in the off season. First of all good pitching beats good hitting, we witnessed that in this post season and remember the new 3 batter minimum rule.
The bullpen needs to get fixed:
1) Get free agent Will Harris. Career OPS 608, 2019 OPS 540, more importantly good vs both righties and lefties (remember the 3 batter minimum rule).
2) Trade for Ken Giles who only has 1 year left on his contract which probably means it won’t cost much in a trade. Again same as Will Harris a good career and 2019 OPS and good against both righties and lefties.
3) Trade for Aaron Bummer. Same reasons why to get him as Harris and Giles. He has 5 years of team control so it’s going to cost in a trade.
As for Ryu and Hill:
5) Try to sign Ryu for 3 years, but Scott Borass is his agent. Therefore it might not happen.
6) Say goodbye to Rich Hill. Great competitor but injury prone.
As for the offense. Look at Machado and Harper they didn’t make the post season. I still believe in this offense when used properly, the problem is Dave Roberts did not use it properly in the post season. Alex Verdugo will be back with all the time in the world to get healthy. DJ Peters I believe at some point next year will contribute and there is your right handed bat. Keibert Ruiz I believe at some point next year will be the back up catcher. The sky is not falling when it comes to the offense. Remember David Freese was hardly used in the post season which in my opinion hurt the overall production of the offense. Besides Dave Roberts beating us, good pitching beat us too and that’s why our prospect capital should be spent on getting good pitching.
It was obvious that Dave Roberts was scared of his bullpen in game 5 and I don’t blame him. There were only 2 guys in the bullpen who were lights out in the post season, Maeda and Kolarek. But Roberts could have done a better job of handling the bullpen in game 5. Joe Kelly with the game on the line? Really? Fix the damn bullpen.
As for a free agent starting pitcher or 2. Good luck outbidding other teams but I’m for it but good luck. Also good luck outbidding other teams for Rendon who in my opinion we don’t need.
Clearly Dave Roberts did not handle the offense properly and at the end he did not handle the bullpen properly. Enough reason to fire him? I say yes, but I don’t have a name in mind to replace him.
Game 2 was the key game a 4-2 loss. AJ Pollock starting over Matt Beaty and Gavin Lux starting over David Freese. Pollock and Lux combined to go 0 for 7 with 6 strike outs.
I want to add that Seager couldn’t hit righties either in the playoffs. Or better yet he couldn’t recognize sliders and thought every pith was a fastball
I think Kershaw next year will be a 4/5 pitcher. I want him to go out as a Dodger. He has to make some changes. Kershaw is stubborn. His fastball and slider are 4/5 miles apart. Not enough distance between pitches. Good hitters do not have to adjust. He has trouble controlling his curve. He has to get separation on those two pitches and develop a change up.
I would give Jansen one more shot at the closer position, but he would be on a short lease. Maeda could be a great closer. Kelly can be good if used properly.
Starters could come out of this group, Beuhler, May, Urias, Gonsolin, Maeda, and Kershaw. I would like to see Ryu come back. If he does, then I would move Maeda and Gonsolin to the bull pen. Your bull pen could be Jansen, Maeda, Kelly, Gonsolin, Ferguson and Baez. Pretty good.
I think Taylor and Kike are one and same. One needs to be traded. Keep Beaty to play third and outfield. Trade Joc. I have said many times because he cannot hit lefthanders and it takes two guys to fill one position. Then he becomes a substitute problem when a left handed relief pitcher comes in. We have a good group of young players. Do not blow up the team.
We need one right handed power hitter. I do not know who, but we need better balance in the line up.
I thought Smith played very well as the catcher. He made some unbelievable stops. He was robbed on some pretty good hits. This is what I would look at for next year.
I would like to see Doc fired, but will not happen.
Thanks for the jog down memory lane. The Dodgers of the 50’s were my heroes, and role models. Those were magical seasons.
The Documentary Ghost of Flatbush is very good and Clam Levine appears there many times. Great Stories there.
Great work as usual DC… Reading about Brooklyn made me happy and especially when the West Coast move was announced… As I’ve said before, the player I really wanted to see was Roy Campanella and that of course was cancelled by a tragic auto accident…
Thanks DC for trying to get our minds off the terrible blunder and failure that happened Thursday night. I’m still stewing about it and it’s making me sick reading that sources say that Roberts will be retained.
I have a few favorite relievers from the Dodgers past starting with Al Downing. I was fortunate enough to get his autograph at the stadium one day when he was warming up in the pen. I also loved Mike Marshall, 200+ inning in relief and a Cy Young to boot? 3 of the top 4 Cy Young finishers that year were Dodgers with Andy Messersmith and Don Sutton rounding it out. But, my all time favorite Dodgers reliever was “Game Over” Gagne! Gagne was the poster boy for failed starter turned bullpen legend. Armed with a PED induced 100 MPH fastball and a pitch he invented that was part split, part change, part screw. Honorable mentions to Alejandro Pena and John Wetteland.
59 which brings up a favorite trivia question….”who was the only man in uniform as a player when Roger Maris hit his 61st homer and Hank Aaron hit his 715th? Pretty easy actually but interesting question.
DC great post. I love these trips down memory lane. Thanks
Wonderful article DC, again. If you have not already, you really need to write a book on the Dodger players of the 50’s. Interesting how relievers back then pitched multiple innings. Labine’s cockiness reminds me a little of the attitude of Buehler who seems to thrive on high pressure games. Thank you for the great posting.
If the LA Times story is correct we’ll see Doc at the helm next year. Dodger fans are faithful and loyal, but the Guggenheim group would be selling themselves short if they believe the continued post season losing won’t have an affect on attendance. They’ve already FUBAR’ed the TV package and they’ve now added to the fan misery of not winning the Fall Classic in 31 consecutive years. I offer my personal belief that many Dodger fans are ambivalent about the regular season and have grown accustomed to the fact the NL West crown goes through LA especially in light of the poor teams that play in the division. While Padre, Rockie and D-Back fans would be elated to win the division and just get to the post season, in LA it’s about winning it all. It’s World Series or bust and we’re tired of not winning the big game!
Changes to DS are nice and needed, but in the long-run the true and passionate fans could care less about the wi-fi, the size of the scoreboards, the new front door to DS as much as they want a WS flag flying in CF.
My message to Guggenheim is don’t underestimate the power of the fans. During the McCourt days attendance faltered, fans protested and even encouraged the MLB to force his ouster. Fortunately, Jamie McCourt had a wandering eye and had a tryst with her driver which ultimately lead to the separation/divorce of the McCourts.
I’m not suggesting there will be a fan revolt, but less attendance (at ST also) means less revenue, less merchandise purchased, less parking revenue etc. I’ve never run a business, but I do understand the difference between operating costs and capital/infrastructure improvements which are budgeted, planned for and funded through different channels or “pots” of money. I also understand there is some tax benefit to infrastructure improvements which is beneficial to the balance sheet and to the the share holders individually.
I would suggest it’s time for Guggenheim to think about extending the player budget and even consider exceeding the CBT. Winning the off season means nothing but by acquiring top talent such as Rendon and Cole the fan interest will grow exponentially and, after all we’re talking about the freaking LA Dodgers, the second largest market in the US.
Speaking for just myself I’ll need to see something substantial to happen to get me excited come March 2020. If Doc is indeed coming back there needs to be other changes. The retirements/reassignments of Honeycutt, Geren the announcement of a full-time GM, an increase to the player budget, the acquisition of FA players beyond the likes of Pollock and Joe Kelly. At the Winter meetings lets see if AF can acquire some new talent that generates some real excitement. At the Summer trade deadline lets see if AF can plug in holes not the likes of Jed Gyorko Matt Latos, Jim Johnson etc.
There is a lot of money coming off the books by way of Ryu, Hill, Freese, Gyorko, Cingrani, Fields and the dead money contracts of Kemp and Baily.
No, I’m not talking “dope fiend” moves but both Rendon and Cole can be acquired in light of the retiring contracts this year and those of JT, KJ and even CK in a couple of years. No more bargain shopping for the likes of Hill (I love Hill by the way) but the addition of young talent that can plug and play.
I agree with a lot of what you said here. However, inevitably we all come back here in the Spring, accepting that Doc is still the manager and AF is still the GM with a glorified title and the results will somehow be different. Like last year, we’ll spend the off-season window shopping at Tiffany’s and Saks, but will ultimately settle for a sweater at Target and think it’s going to be just fine. 100+ wins, a soaring run differential but that sweater hits a snag come October and unravels quickly and your out window shopping again next year and wind up at Target again to buy the cheap sweater you bought the year before. The old adage “Buy cheap, buy again” comes to mind, but I just can’t justify paying full price for quality when the Chinese knock off seems like a good value alternative. You say boat anchor like it’s a bad thing. But, that anchor prevents the boat from crashing into the rocks and sinking the ship like this October and the October before and the October before that. Great generals know that you have to sometimes sacrifice a battle or two in order to win the war. Ours wants to win every trade, keep every prospect, not sacrificing a couple of pawns and maybe a rook in order to mate. No risk, no reward. No guts, no glory. If not now, when?
I’d be very wary of drawing any kind of line between the McCourts and current membership.
Do we really think fans are dissatisfied? Or that attendance will be impacted? There’s no way attendance will drop more than 10%, right? The team ended at over 3.5mm. Even at a 10% drop, it’s still over 3mm at the gate. That’s amazing.
I really, really, really don’t think the status of Honeycutt or Geren or a GM under Friedman is going to effect fans investment at all.
I love Hill too.
How about hiring an in-game strategy manager and making Robert’s strictly the clubhouse manager?
Good column on Clem Labine. One of my first baseball cards was Clem Labine during his Brooklyn days. Somebody gave it to me. Kept it with cards I accumulated by buying the bubblegum cards at little league games back in the day.
Good post by BellingerBuehler with suggestions on fixing the bullpen. Fix it they must. Sorry for the Yoda reference, but no more tap dancing around it. One thing became crystal clear attending Dodger games this year the pen was incredibly inconsistent and when you get to the post season the warts tend to be more noticeable. The failure to produce when you have a runner at second and no outs. The little things like moving runners over becomes a big thing.
Maybe DJ is the right handed bat we need, but right now I’m uncertain. Need to see more and have him prove he can be that player at a major league level.
The Dodgers rotation is in pretty good shape with Urias, May and Gonsolin competing for rotation spots. I think Ryu is back because he wants to return. The Dodgers clubhouse and the connection between players is special. Most teams don’t have that.
Regarding a potential signing of Gerrit Cole, the Dodgers don’t need him to win the division, maybe even go far in the playoffs, possibly a World Series. But will we be better with him or without him. No need to answer that question. Watching him last night, he’s a beast. Buehler and Cole at the top of a rotation. Nobody can match that. It would also correct the perception that the Dodgers aren’t going all out to win the World Series.
Hey you’re in LA, drawing 3.9 million fans. Time to act like it. Prove you’re not the second coming of the Atlanta Braves.
Somebody wrote yesterday that we are too left handed and no question that’s true. Still think Pollock, past last summer’s surgery, could be a dynamic offensive force. But he has to stay healthy and he’s had a lot of freaky injuries the past few years. Even if Pollock takes off, you still need another right handed bat. How about Mark’s favorite guy? He was a great addition to the Cubs.
Interesting take by Orel last night on the season review. He referenced the use of Kershaw to get thee outs in game five as an organizational decision. Then he talked about Kenley. The Dodgers need to meet with him, address what they expect, using three pitches, instead of relying on the cutter. Since he is past the heart surgery last winter, he needs to work on getting the cutter to work right, mixing in a couple of other pitches. Doing that, he felt Kenley could return to become a dominant closer again.
Now that Roberts is settled, the Dodgers need to finish Friedman’s contract, announce it and move forward. They have a lot of work to do.
Pursuing relievers may cost prospects, but I wouldn’t make players like Keibert Ruiz available. I’m guessing he is up at some point next season and will be a contributor. We also have a pretty good pitching prospect who may come into play next season.
Interesting study by Baseball Prospectus indicating that Will Smith’s walk off homerun that wasn’t may be due to a change in the ball used in the post season, saying it has more drag that the ones used during the regular season. BP said the playoffs thus far have less homers than projected.
Yep, and everyone laughed at me when I suggested that they’re going to fix the ball next year. Looks like that already started. Funny, Soto and Rendon must have used the last two live balls at Dodgers stadium. Just our luck.
Clem Labine came out West with the Dodgers. He was not at his peak then, but he was still a legendary figure along with the other great Boys of Summer. It must have been great to have followed the Brooklyn Dodgers, with all that talent and class. Sometimes I think that if it were possible, it would be wonderful to listen to an entire season of game broadcasts from those years, with Scully and Doggett announcing. I would also listen to the 1965 season is Los Angeles, which was a glorious title year, with as strong a National League as I can ever remember. The Braves had Aaron, Matthews, Carty, Alou, Torre, and a 24-game winner in Tony Cloninger, and they finished around 6th, just to show you.
Many Dodgers fans grew up with the early years, whenever they might have been for them. And the glory and legends of those eras are a large part of their fan allegiance. This Dodgers ownership benefits from that. The Dodgers network kept showing specials on the 1988 title for years, and I think they finally stopped. Can you imagine that a franchise that won all those National League pennants in the ’50’s, and those three World Championships from 1959-1966, has not won even one in 31 years? What a disgrace, and what an insult to those fans and to the legacy the Dodgers created, a legacy which the current ownership thrives on for maximum profits.
To announce the return of Dave Roberts a day after the entire baseball world agreed that he did a terrible job in the playoffs, one of the most blatantly bad managing jobs imaginable, is another insult. It is as if the ownership is saying, “We know what’s best for you. Dave’s a great guy, right? We’re going to put him right out there again, maybe for another decade, so you should just renew your season tickets, go out to the games, buy all the merchandise, try to find some way to see the team on TV, and stop complaining. It’s not about winning a title, and besides, we have won the five-team Western Division of the NL for seven straight years, that is amazing!”
Pretty soon we will start seeing and hearing that the Dodgers don’t need to do much, they have a strong nucleus; maybe they will try to pick up a relief pitcher or two, they will go with the youngsters. What we should be seeing is that the people who run the organization realize that their strategy of not signing major free agents, not making major trades for stars who are more than rentals, is not conducive to winning a championship. Essentially, the Dodgers have played it that way since 1992 or so, and no titles. They wouldn’t have had one in 1988, either, except that the owners collusion debacle got them Kirk Gibson.
If we thought that the ownership and front office was as disappointed as the long-time fans are, we would feel some optimism that we were finally going to do it another way, at least to some extent. But the immediate announcement of Roberts’ return belies that. Roberts is not a terrible manager, obviously, but he has done a very poor job in the playoffs of the last few years, almost always making mistakes at the key moments. This year’s mistakes were inexcusable; and no, Orel, I do not think that putting Kershaw in was an organizational decision, and keeping him in after the first home run was anything but Roberts’ call. Whoever’s call it was, it was an absolutely insupportable decision from the start. Boston fired Terry Francona after two world titles. Girardi won one for the Yankees, and was later fired, after just missing winning the ALCS. The Dodgers are all about continuity, “stay with the plan.” Unfortunately, the plan is insufficient, at least in terms of on-field success. It wasn’t always that way in Dodgers history. as we are reminded.
I’ll join everyone in wishcasting…
I can’t believe Roberts will return. I know what was just reported, but I’m fully expecting a release framed along the lines of:
Roberts made the decision, it was time for him and his family to move onto other opportunities.
Like the phrasing that accompanied Turner Ward.
If it’s true that the ball has been unjuiced for the post-season, and teams weren’t informed about it beforehand, that’s totally irresponsible on the part of MLB. In fact, given that the post-season is an extension of the regular season, any change whether announced beforehand or not is totally unjustifiable. The same rules and circumstances that got teams into the dance need to apply throughout the season in it’s entirety, which includes the post-season.
If this is true, then it’s absolutely shameful.
The ball Smith hit was a dud and the balls the Nats hit were juiced.
Also, at Washington in the 4th game, Muncy (to center in 8th) and Seager (to left in 9th) hit balls that by the looks on their faces, they thought were going out.
After 36 hours to detox and reading 143 posts from yesterday maybe I’m ready to discuss things more rationally and less emotionally:
* Many have suggested a tearing down and a rebuild to varying degrees. Everybody has been mentioned from the batboy to the owners. Maybe we could look toward Seattle and hire Jerry Dipota (after AF gets fired). He “reimagines” the roster every 2 years. His revolving door trade model so far has yielded squat for a team who has never played in the WS. That’s not what needs to happen.
* Seriously, the Dodgers did win 106 games and have a great farm system so a major tear down isn’t what’s needed. We certainly need to shore up the weaknesses. There has been plenty written about the areas that need to be fixed in the off season. A stud starter like Cole would be awesome, addressing the bullpen and finding a closer (which may come from in-house) and getting a right handed power bat or two would all be a good start. Who’s available, who’s coming back and who isn’t will all be interesting.
* I would like a review of how we do things, especially Doc. Im personally now sold on the “versatility” model with a new line up every day and swiss army knife players swapped out and switched around as the manager over manages. I don’t need 5 guys who can all play second base. I need one good one. I don’t need a clever manager who has to find ways to get playing time at 6 of the 8 positions while the players have 4 different gloves to pack around. Find me players who don’t have big splits and can be everyday players against any pitcher and a couple of utility players for resting starters and lets go. Out of 167 games I’ll bet there weren’t 12 identical line ups. That’s a guess. Has that model worked. Was it good preparation for the post season?
* Speaking of post season prep, was the “Spring Training” in September a good idea? Why were there questions (baring injuries) at the end of the year about who plays where? Players won’t criticize this openly but I bet more predictability and PT would be welcomed. And Doc likes to over manage so that change in how players are used will never happen as long as he’s the skipper.
* The Dodgers won lots of games down the stretch but they really had no meaningful games the last months to be sharp and competitive. I think that lack of an edge hurt in the end.
* And in the end, as Mark said repeatedly. The Dodgers didn’t execute. To paraphrase John McKay when he was asked about what he thought of his Tampa Bay team’s execution he reported “I’m for It”.
Pedro Moura in The Athletic this morning:
” Will shortstop Corey Seager be a Dodger in 2020?
After a sterling beginning to his career, Seager has settled into unspectacular form. His approach to hitting does not fit the rest of the team’s, as the postseason made clear. He does not limit himself to swinging at strikes, as the organization emphasizes. His aggressiveness renders him prone to slumps. In part because of the organization’s positioning, Seager is a competent defender, but he is by no means excellent.
Seager is 25 now, and he will be a free agent after the 2021 season. He figures to make somewhere at least $14 million, and potentially more than $20 million, through arbitration over those two seasons.”
What do you think about this? Is it time for Cory to go? Trade him for a RH bat? Could this be part of a small rebuild?
Pedro is pretty well clued in. Has good sources, I imagine there’s something to his depiction of friction.
That said, this front office demands value. They aren’t going to trade or release any players who has value just to do so.
I think it’s quite possible he will be traded, especially if the Dodgers go after Rendon who started his big league career at 2B. Move Lux to SS, Rendon at 2B, keep Muncy at 1B and Bellinger plays CF full-time. MLB Traderumors estimates Seager’s arbitration salary for 2020 to be $7.1 million.
If the FO can get some valuable pieces in return (ML ready pitching RP or SP) I can see a scenario where he gets moved. I thought he was an ascending player but in my opinion his glove/range/arm is OK, but I’m most concerned he has plateaued as a hitter.
He gone !
I see it oppositely. Corey had a rehab offseason and missed almost the entire Spring Training. He looked skinny and weak all season and still managed to put up top 8 SS DRS with everyone else above him (save 1) having played more innings.
I discount that somehow the Dodgers position him better than the other teams position their short stops as everyone is using analytics these days. Plus, he passes the eye test. A Cal Ripkin type that makes all the plays and has a very strong arm making throws from all angles. I never recall any plays where I thought, “wow he should have got that guy out”.
He ended up being a 4 WAR player and he’ll be paid next year as a 1 WAR player. That’s a ton of “value” to trade away. Definitely not the type of move AF makes. Only Bellinger and Muncy had a higher WAR than Corey, and I’ll say it again – he was coming off of 2 surgeries and missed Spring Training.
Now, I was wrong about Puig so this isn’t to say that it won’t happen. Speaking of Puig, I’m thinking about now that this series might have turned out a little bit differently if we would have held onto him instead of picking up AJ Pollock. Remember Puig, the guy that had reverse splits and couldn’t hit lefties? Well, his splits slightly favored lefties this year, so don’t get too caught up in making assumptions like so and so can’t hit in the post season.
I can already see that I’m going to wear out my keyboard all off-season defending Corey who had a pretty good year.
Well my keyboard will get a good workout defending Corey also 59.
Rendon would replace Turner at 3B, Lux SS, Muncy 2B, Turner 1B. Next season might be JT’s last.
Rick, unfortunately, this team does not know how to trade players like Seager. Their vision is limited to supply and demand at the farm level. They would sooner replace him with a prospect than trade him for an actual player! This is their MO. They really don’t have the skills to identify talent in the FA market or to trade for value. And, aside from that, Seager is due for arbitration now, 2020 season. He is currently making only $4M. Do you really see AF paying him between 14-20M a season?
Clem the gem! Great post DC!
Let’s just hang on to Seager for awhile and see how the off season plays out. He’s better than anyone we presently have.
Is that where we are now? Trading a guy who just came off two surgeries who had 44 doubles and 87 RBI’s missing a full month. There’s some problems with the team, but Corey isn’t one of them.
The point made by Pedro Moura was that Seager doesn’t employ the same patience and plate discipline as the rest of the Dodgers. The number of times that I’ve heard announcers comment that he always swings at the 1st pitch and the number of times that pitchers take advantage of that is frustrating. Then there’s Molly Knight’s interview with an NL pitcher who comments that Seager is essentially a mistake hitter given his lack of plate discipline.
Seager saw 3.53 pitches per plate appearance this year. That is last of all position players that the Dodgers used in 2019. Max Muncy was 1st among players who played regularly at 4.38.
https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/los-angeles-dodgers-team-stats?season=2019&category=BATTING+II&group=1&sort=15&time=0&pos=0&qual=0&splitType=0
Seager’s career stats swinging at first pitch: .405 / .410 / .651 / 1.061 in 344 plate appearances (not a small sample size). Before his elbow injury, and hip surgery, he won the Silver Slugger award two consecutive seasons, and led ALL shortstops with 13.3 WAR, ranking 5th during that period behind Trout, Betts, Altuve, and Bryant. Did Molly Knight mention those facts?
You can file that under “random stat of the day”. 3.53 pitches vs 4.38 pitches doesn’t sound like a lot to me. This is a non – stat.
You can bet the guys with the computers who run the Dodgers won’t view this as a “non-stat”.
Of all hitters in MLB, Seager ranks 793 in pitches per plate appearance. This includes pitchers (for example, Kershaw, Cole Hamels, Jake deGrom and Max Scherzer all saw more pitches than Seager did).
That’s 793 out of 1000 hitters. The problem is that he’s not selective enough. I’m certainly not the only one saying this.
I love the dialogue keep it up everyone! Corey is (was?) seen as a pillar player and didn’t play anything like one this post season and in the months of April, May, and August. The team invested a lot in him this year, continuing to start him when he struggled and choosing him over a replacement pillar player in Machado. Getting him straight is arguably as big an off season need as anything, and I don’t see anything wrong with discussing his merits and marks all off season.
Did Corey struggle as much with breaking pitches and general pitch selection in 2016 and 2017? Is there reason to believe he can improve on these fronts?
And everyone saying this, including Molly Knight, simply ignore the facts of how well Seager hits early in the count, and poorly hits late in the count,
I have been beyond angry the last few days, should be getting ready for game 1 tonight versus Cardinals. Thx Robert’s.
To add more insult to injury they come out with the news that Robert’s will be retained, this just show’s how little our front office and ownership cares about appeasing the diehards.
And to be honest if the bottom line profits are the only true objective then they really don’t need too. People came out in droves this year, and will again next year as without making one roster change we are prohibitive favorites to win the West again. What is the incentive to spend any money, especially tying it up long term. We are a hedge fund not a baseball team and things like future valuation, and cash reserve rule. Sadly I believe our owners lost sleep on Wednesday not because we lost but because they lost future revenue.
I do hope we resign Friedman but I have a feeling he will be moving on. Just a gut feeling, why was Friedman unavailable to the media after this dreadful loss, not a good look??
I was thinking the same thing, that Friedman will go to Boston. This probably would mean that the ownership would just promote Josh Byrne, who was fired at GM at San Diego. That doesn’t mean that he is inept, but it doesn’t give a lot of hope that he is as good as Friedman, much less better. Keeping Roberts and losing Friedman would be disastrous. Had we lost both, maybe the owners would realize they had to find a top current GM or someone with a lot of potential, and let him hire the new manager. But this may well be a case of the heads of a business thinking that they are more important and smarter than everyone else, and that it doesn’t really matter who fills the spots below them. This is almost always a mistake, and it would be here.
William, do you really think AF is going anywhere? He’s an emperor here and the whole Dodger org revolves around him and his system, at this point. Maybe Doc should be promoted to GM? lol
I think people are over-looking the massive trump card that is the city of Los Angeles. Maybe for folks who live in LA it’s easy to overlook, but for folks who live outside it who support rival city franchises, they’re frequently reminded that LA’s quality of living and star appeal is a very real thing. Friedman being a young guy, I could see him being reluctant to leave it for overcast Tuesdays in July and snow and ice in December.
Bruce Bochy anyone?
No Giants retreads.
I just concluded Gerrit Cole is the key to our offseason and World Series hopes. I don’’t care if the last few years he regreses to a #3/4 or becomes a lockdown closer. Cole, Buhler, Kershaw, Urias, May and Hill/Gonsolin/Stripling. Can minimize innings for everyone this way and still cruise to an 8th straight division. Rework Maeda’s contract and incentives and convert him to the pen. Sign Will Smith. Maybe some fringe offensive upgrades, rental at deadline. Money works. Cole 7/230 and Smith 3/40. Ryu, Hill, Freese, Martin, Cingrani and Dead Money pay for acquisitions and arbitration players. Putting a call into Kasten/Friedman/Walter right now.
Bruce Bochy knows what to do with good players and has proved it ALL THE WAY three times!
Hill 1/7 with incentives
Anibal Sanchez steps up.