With the passing in the last week or so of Bob Gibson, Whitey Ford, and now Joe Morgan, I got to thinking about players who always seem to be at their best against the Dodgers.
It has always seemed to me like some players just have another team’s number. Take for example, Willie McCovey. His BA against the Dodgers in 297 games was .241. He hit 45 HR’s and had 162 RBI’s. He struck out 212 times. But against a Dodger great, Don Drysdale, he hit .336 with 12 homers over their careers. McCovey was not exactly a Dodger killer, but he inflicted a lot of wounds and owned Drysdale.
Stan Musial comes to mind. Over 432 games ” The Man ” hit .341 with a .596 slugging pct, and 74 HR’s and 241 RBI’s He drew 249 walks and struck out only 90 times. Yep, “The Man” owned the Dodgers. He treated Ebbets Field like a second home hitting a whopping .359 there with a .660 Slugging pct, and an OPS of 1.108. The highest of any park he played in including Sportsman’s Park, his home field. He also OPS’d over 1.000 at the Polo Grounds.
Musial once hit 5 homers in a double header at Ebbets Field. Too bad that after the 40’s ended, Stan never got another shot at playing in the World Series.
Although they did have some success against him, Willie Mays was another player who did very well against the Dodgers. 98 HR’s, 251 RBI’s, and a .309 BA with a .595 slugging average. And Mays could kill them with his glove and his legs. He was 33 of 51 stealing. But it was when he was on the basepath’s stretching hits that he was most dangerous.
Sometimes one of your own comes back to bite you. Roberto Clemente played 291 games against the Dodgers. He was not the power threat that Mays, Musial or McCovey were, but he did damage nonetheless. He had 395 career hits against the Dodgers. More than against any other team. Although only 80 were for extra bases, he managed to drive in 129 runs. For most of his career the Pirates were a lousy team. They had some good players, and won in 1960, but fell off of the grid until the 70;s with the team that beat Baltimore in 1970. He was killed on a mercy flight on New Year’s Eve 1972.
Hank Aaron had very good career stats against the Dodgers. A .302 BA, 95 HR’s and 247 RBI’s. Although not considered a big stolen base threat, Hank was 21 of 24 against the Dodgers. And he was a great defender.
One some forget is Orlando Cepeda. He also was very good against the Dodgers. A .280 BA, 40 HR’s and 164 RBI’s. Cepeda was traded because the Giants had McCovey. Will Clark hit .311 against the Dodgers. His power numbers are not all that high, but he was traded to the AL.
Jack Clark may not have been the most prolific, but he had some moments that are locked in the fans memory’s. Tony Gwynn, although not a slugger, hit .330 against the Dodgers. 67 of his 271 hits were for extra bases. He caused a lot of anxiety for Dodger pitchers.
Albert Pujols, although his skills have declined since he became an Angel, still has managed to keep his average just below .300 at .297. 49 of his 119 hits against LA have been for extra bases.
One of our foes in the NLCS, Freddie Freeman has not fared well against Dodger pitching in the past. He has a .266 BA, but only 6 HR’s and 20 RBI’s in 55 games. Here is a shocker for you, Ronald Acuna Jr. has played only 10 games against LA. He is hitting a paltry .114 against Dodger pitching. He has 2 HR’s and 5 ribbies. 4 of those coming on the Grand Slam he hit off of Buehler in 2018. Ozuna, has a career .231 BA against the Dodgers. 7 homers and 17 RBI’s.
Joe Morgan had a career .256. BA and hit 29 homer’s and 106 RBI’s. He did most of his damage when he was a Red.
Although he had a losing record against them Warren Spahn had 36 complete games in 66 outings against the Dodgers and he only allowed 34 homers. Whitey Ford finished 3-4 against the Dodgers in post season play. Mainly because he lost 2 games in the 63 sweep.
Despised by most LA fans, Juan Marichal rang up a 37-18 career record against LA. He had a paltry 2.36 ERA and only allowed 37 HR’s, He struck out 305 and walked 104. I find it odd that Bob Gibson had a losing record against the Dodgers at 17-23. His ERA was 3.58. I think a lot of that can be attributed to how bad some of those Cardinal teams were.
But for pure dominance in a single season, few can compare to what Larry Jaster did in 1966. Even though they went on to the World Series, Jaster who posted a 11-5 regular season record was 5-0 against the Dodgers. And ALL 5 games were complete game shutouts. Jaster was barely over .500 in his career, but 9 of his 35 wins came at the Dodgers expense.
Joe Morgan was a class act, and one of the best clutch players I ever saw. Mays was the best player I ever saw. But Mantle was close. Some asked me about Bonds. Barry was a .263 hitter against the Dodgers. He walked an awful lot, and hit 64 HR’s in 274 games. His dad, Bobby, hit .254 with 20 homers against LA. I remember one that really hurt. The Dodgers had led 9-0. And Bonds led a furious comeback that climaxed with a grand slam by Bonds to win the game. Bad memory.
I probably left out more than a few. I remember Eddie Mathews as always being a good hitter against the Dodgers, and Joe Adcock also. Big Klu, Bill Virdon. Mantle, Berra and Skowron always played well against the Dodgers in the series until 63. Koufax owned those guys even though the Mick hit a dinger in game 4. Maris did no damage at all, and Skowron was a Dodger.
Discussion (83)
Disagree, not disagreeable
I don’t blame Gonsolin. He made some mistakes. He can’t walk the batter before Freeman but when you don’t throw the guy at all for 17 days then have to throw him only 3 days after his sim game he was put in a bad position. As usual when Baez came into a playoff game with runners on he didn’t do his job.
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Let’s hope the bats have woke up now but they haven’t hit good pitching. When given fat pitches by good pitchers they either fouled them off or popped out.
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I don’t get pulling Kelly and running Kolarek out there but this game is on the players and it’s time they step up. Hopefully they’ve seen enough pitches from Atlanta to turn things around.
Remember the definition of insanity—doing the same things over and over again and expecting a different result. I certainly agree that our guys don’t perform well in the postseason but how do you fix that? Again, you can tweet at the margins or get a manager that leads them through the battles with good management. That’s what a manager is hired to do. Talent is very important but it takes a great leader to win the war. We need to do something!
I don’t buy the best position to succeed line. We pitch and hit better than any team in baseball from April to September and then in October most every player crashes and burns. That’s not on Roberts!
My take is that the new age GM’s build teams based on analytics over a 162 game season but not for the playoffs. Billy Beane always says the playoffs are a crap shoot and looking at the A’s he has rolled craps every year—they get there but fold like a cheap suit every year. I think a lot of it is the manager. In a short series analytics don’t mean as much as instinct and gut feel. Neither Bob Melvin or DR seem to have that trait. Dusty Baker too.
I really hate to say it but if they don’t at least get to the WS this year they need to make a change of managers. They have a solid team and certainly don’t want to tear it apart and it’s a lot cheaper too. That’s how things work in business. You don’t fire everyone when you’re not getting the results you want.
Rough but that’s life in the fast lane.
Omg, Roberts postgame talk stating the 5th inning was not high leverage but saying he went with a high leverage pitcher??? And then said he liked the way Gonsolin was pitching in 5th but then a double to Pache and and a walk to Acuna and then a strikeout of Riley. My point is Robert’s has no clue, sound like a guy playing darts blindfolded. Who hell is running this team and then Kolarek in the 9th was a head scratcher and a manager conceding as he faced all righties and a lefty who mashes lefties.
And how about the eye test something Robert’s never seems to have always going with the book or some preconceived notion on what pitchers are capable of. Last night Graterol
And Gonzalez pitching 6 and 4 pitches respectively and not being allowed to go further. And tonight Kelly 4 pitches instead bringing Kolarek in. Robert’s says he will not be chasing wins in a 7 game series on 7 consecutive days. Well slow Dave better start chasing you are about to play a must win game!!
Why the knock onWood. He did his best to hurt Freeman with a hit by pitch and take him out of the series.
Great rally, not quite enough. Who knows what would have happened had our bullpen done better, but it sure would have helped. Baez and Kolarek this time, Treinen last night. Would have turned around the whole series had we pulled it out. Very tough to beat the Braves 4 out of the last 5, but everyone knows that. Bottom line, of course, is that great teams win. Coming close is not enough in a playoff game or series Give up eight runs, and you are not likely to win that game. The bullpen has been insufficient, as in past playoffs, and the hitters woke up too late. It is hard to be very positive about our bullpen being able to close out four wins for us. It is very disappointing for all us fans.
Nothing un-clutch about the 9th inning. If Bellinger adds a little more launch angle that ball is gone and game is tied. And Pollock’s ground out was hit hard, and just didn’t find a hole. I don’t know if the Dodgers’ bats coming to life in the late innings tonight is a harbinger of things to come, but with Urias, Kershaw, and May in the next three games, and Gonsolin in the mix after that, I am still hopeful that the Dodgers can come back, especially since the Dodgers have done that on several occasions in 7 game series in their history.
Means little, no momentum in a loss, 9th inning would have played out differently if we were closer, pounding Tomlin and Minter means very little
Unless we win tomorrow. Win or go home game, and we have seen how we perform under pressure to this point.
And by the way where are any dodger fans, blame myself for not getting there and giving them some support. Not looking forward to Robert’s post game talk on how he liked the compete at the end, how about try some other speech.
Dammit.
Now we can blame it on pitching.
Would’ve been nice to have had a bullpen today. Doc gave up too soon.
Hopefully this woke the offense up, and we carry this into tomorrow.
How big was that solo HR to Albies in the 9th. Should Doc had used someone else?
This is the same old
Dodgers, pound average to below average teams and struggle against good ones. The last 7 years have shown that minus 2017.
Tired of un clutch players and BP reclamation projects. Kenley carried the pen until game 2 of 2017, since then it has been average at best. Please do not refer to the season, Dodgers only played 13 games against teams above .500 and went 8 and 5.
Friedman go out and get a clutch bat or two , two middle relievers, a closer and new coaching staff and let’s get back at it. Not too much to ask for.
Joe Kelly must have been worn out after 4 pitches. Bring in Kolarek to face a string of righties including a lefty killer. What could happen?
I miss David Freese.
Is it gonna be ‘deja vu all over again or did Seager just wake the rest of the team up?
The Braves have Freeman. We have Seager and Bellinger. Enough said! The Dodgers have a collection of unclutch players! Plain and simple! Got to concede it’s not gonna happen with this group!
Toast!!!!!!!
When you bring in Wood to pitch, you are basically conceding this game.
Pitching to Freeman was insanity. Ray Charles could have seen it.
They are well on their way to losing this game and being down 2-0. They seem lifeless and uninspired. Are there any clutch players that the Dodgers have besides Mookie who seems to have also caught this bug of complacency. All of our concerns are rising mightily. I only see a team that is choking no matter how you analyze this. While I can’t predict the final outcome of the series, I do see a classic choke in the making. We’ve talked about all this every year. If the players are not executing, what do you do? I would answer this simply, you try everything that all the pundits talk about, but if the problems persist, you change the personnel. Clearly this blue print that the Dodgers have been running has gotten them within contention year in and year out, but the players themselves continually choke when the pressure is turned up. If we lose this series, there will be major questions to be asked if we can continue to see the current blue print as the right won to win a WS.
Is it the pitching or bats? I would say it’s the bats that are underwhelming. We have one of the best offenses who hit the most HRs in the majors yet they can’t score many runs when they need to. They don’t seem to be hitters. The only guy who consistently hits is JT but if he has no support, what good is it? What good is Muncy if he can consistently get walks but can’t drive in any runs with his bat? Same question for Cody. But the difference between Cody and Muncy is huge. Cody is a great defensive player with the potential to hit many HRs which fits the Dodger blue print. Muncy does not fit this.
The Dodgers need hitters, pure and simple. Hitters are those batters who get on base and move base runners around with their bats. Seager has fit this description but hasn’t been able to do it when the pressure is on. He’s also not a great defensive player. These are some big factors that are in play with our team and we are often faced with this reality when it counts. Our pitching is falling apart every year when the pressure is turned up, too.
Everyone is shouting where is Gonsolin. He didn’t pitch in 16 days? So you start him in the NL championship series and leave someone like Urias to pitch relief who has earned a starting job? Gonsolin gave up 5 earned runs. Baez, who is up and down every year, gives up another. Really makes you think if the Dodgers really know what they are doing. It seems more like a guessing game to me or pin the tail on the donkey.
Greatest Dodgers Killer. Easy answer, Dave Roberts.
When will Roberts learn about Playoff Baez, never, that is why he needs to go, to stubborn to change, believes he is the smartest guy in the room.
Yes we are not hitting and maybe that needs to be looked at as well, we pounded a lot of poor pitching this season but do not recall us hitting many great pitchers? Woodward shut us down in the Brewers series.
Just want to remind all that twice in the Dodgers history they have been down 2-0 and come back to win. The 1955 and 81 World Series. They lost the first two, won the middle 3 in 55 and in 81 they lost the first two and then went 4-0 the rest of the way. And this game still has 4 innings left to go. So far the offense has let them down. Hopefully that turns around. Even though he was tagged for 5 runs, considering the fact that Gonsolin had not pitched in 17 days, he did a pretty good job. Baez did not.Actually they did it 3 times, they also did it in 1965 losing the first two games to the Twins then winning 3 in a row before Koufax pitched his game 7 gem.
Honestly, is anyone really surprised?
When will the Baez experiment be over?
Another life lesson—You aren’t as good as you think you are.
Next life lesson—gotta keep trying.
The age old baseball question—is it good pitching or lousy hitting? I suppose it depends on who you are rooting for. Tough to take in either case. They need a shaman or someone to break the spell they’re in. I’m 76– I’ve seen this all too often.
99% of games that you don’t score any runs you will lose.
You gotta get with them to play with them.
That wasn’t a bad pitch. Just better hitting.
I just have to say it is so frustrating watching this offense. How in the world did seager ever hit 300? He has no clue where the strike zone is and is such a rally killer in the playoffs. Smith has got to be taken out of the 5 spot. He has had one game. Then, why is Betts not running with a catcher that can’t throw and our punchless lineup. We just absolutely have a pathetic offense in the playoffs. AGAIN! Just as I am writing this freeman homers so it’s over.
Looks like the Braves are going for matchups. Walked Muncy twice to get to Smith. Result—5 LOB. Bas were ball is often a games where you have only a few opportunities during a game to score. Hopefully, we will have a few more. Gotta keep plug-in’ away!
So Muncy steps in with runners on the corners 2 outs and my first thought was “I wish it was Smith”.
Then with the bases loaded…… doink.
Ouch! That’s all we need, there isn’t enough hate outdoors already. GO DODGERS
Wait…. $30 for pancakes?
I seem to recall JR Richard being a Dodger killer back in the day.
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I haven’t gone gaga over Jake McGee. I think he’s done a nice job this year. Certainly better than I expected when they signed him. A lefty chucking in straight fastball after straight fastball seems like a potential disaster against good teams. Maybe the Dodgers increased his spin rate. I don’t know for sure though. Losing Ferguson was a big loss than people realize.
Michael Norris (AKA Bear)
The comments are closed on yesterday’s thread. But I’d like to point out a couple things you said about me yesterday that are false.
You said I don’t produce stats to back up my arguments and that is absolutely false. I figured that since I’ve produced bullpen stats several times that I didn’t need to continue to produce those stats over and over again. And by the way I don’t remember the last time you produced stats.
You said that I said defense is not important while also telling me to get MY facts straight. Well you might want to get YOUR facts straight because those are not the words I used. And by the way you said this to me awhile back “if you don’t have good defense nothing else matters”. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard anyone say in my entire life.
You might want to check your attitude at the door. You remind everyone it seems like everyday that you have watched baseball for over 65 years and so that means you are somehow better than everyone else. Yea you might also want to check your ego at the door too.
It’s guys like you that hang around this website that makes me think twice about posting here.
Actually you are the only one hanging around here that makes me think twice about posting here.
I read a prediction yesterday where an Athletic journalist predicted Fried would prevail in game one but the Dodgers would invariably win the series. I haven’t read a single person who predicted 13-0. I haven’t read a single post that said the “sky is falling”. What we have hashed over is some history leading to this point and why we are, where we are. There is some valid conversation going on. Our pitching is what it is. It’s been a management decision and a little bad luck losing Fergy. This is what we have and if we succeed it will be by committee in the bullpen.
Evan, who here said the “sky is falling”?
So, why hasn’t Gonzo pitched in 16 days? Throwing in a sim game at USC isn’t exactly pitching in the NLCS. I wish him well. I like the kid. But why the lay off?
Bottom line for the 3rd time…..you don’t win scoring 1 run on 4 hits.
We had won nine straight going into game 1 of the NLCS. Was the expectation that the Dodgers would steamroll through the post season with a 13-0 record? We lost a tough one and now the sky is falling. This series will go seven games and the Dodgers will finish on top. If they don’t, I’m out $502 because that’s my plane fare to Dallas to watch game 2 of the World Series, (my brother scored some tickets).
I like Gonsolin for game 2. The Braves haven’t faced him ever. Hopefully his intrasquad workouts were enough because his two week lay off from the mound I find a little bit concerning.
No Kershaw for Game 3.
Cheers to Badger’s above post. Summed up by my feeble brain as:
You can’t win if you don’t score.
I will go out on a limb to make a bold prediction: the rest of the team will step up and come through for us, and we will beat the Braves without CK and KJ.
We hit, we win. We don’t we won’t.
Last night was one of those games where the nothing in all or nothing showed up. It happens to this team. Treinen sucked. He had a few bad outings late in the year, ballooning his ERA from1.04 to 3.86 in 10 days in September. But his 6 outings before last night were ok. It happens. But you score 1 run on 4 hits you’re only gonna win if Koufax is pitching, and he isn’t putting a uniform back on any time soon.
Hit. Score. Win. That’s my strategy.
Sorry William but you can’t sign all stars at every position. You can’t fault ownership that spends at the top of the chart every year. And stop blaming Roberts. We have a group of talented players, a better collection of talent than any other team over the past several years that just doesn’t perform anywhere near their regular season level when the lights are turned up in October! Plain and simple
1) Mookie Betts, RF
2) Corey Seager, SS
3) Justin Turner, 3B
4) Max Muncy, 1B
5) Will Smith, C
6) Cody Bellinger, CF
7) AJ Pollock, LF
8) Joc Pederson, DH
9) Chris Taylor, 2B
I was going to write about last night’s game, in terms of what it meant for the series, which I think was more than just the one loss. In brief,, it got down to the two bullpens in a tie game, and theirs did better. I think that their bullpen is better, though others disagree. I have seen us lose crucial series in past years to the Cardinals simply because their bullpen arms were more effective against our hitters than ours were against theirs. I would say that the final game against Washington last year also came down to that, Roberts using Kershaw because he did not have enough bullpen arms that he trusted. I think that the Braves and Rays have better bullpens than we do. We may have a better offense, but not if it doesn’t show up in latter stages of the playoffs.
Now Kershaw is out for today. Can he pitch tomorrow? If he is out for the series, we will lose it. Even if he can pitch tomorrow, it means he cannot start game 7. We used two starters in relief last night, not for long stints, but it doesn’t help. We’re going to have to go, Gonsolin, maybe Kershaw, if not, then Urias, May, Wood, Buehler, Gonsolin, if we somehow get that far? It is bad luck that Kershaw is hurting, but of course he has had back problems for the last few years.
I will not repeat at length what I have said, that the Dodgers ownership and management does not try to build a virtually impregnable team, even for a year or two, but is always obsessed with the salary cap, to the extent that we did not do anything at the trade deadline for two straight seasons, and did not add a closer. Last year, Roberts did not want to use Jansen in crucial situations in the playoffs, and that is the case again this year. So why did we not go all-out after the best closer we could get, even if we had to give up one or two of our precious minor league talents? One thing about Alex Anthropolous, he takes risks, and sometimes they do not work out, but he went after bullpen arms in Atlanta. I do not blame Friedman nearly as much as Kasten and Wallter, whoever keeps setting these limits on whom we can go after, so that when we get to the later stages of the playoffs, we do not want to be in games where the bullpen decides it, because we almost always lose those. Does anyone remember more than say, one key playoff game in the last ten years where our bullpen was great, and won it?
Maybe I am premature here, and I do hope so, but even before we learned about Kerahaw, it seemed from last night’s game that we are in the same spot as last year, with a lineup which is superb during the regular season, but does not do well against top pitching; with an insufficient relief corps with no real star, and now in this particular year with a short-handed starting staff where we are relying on two rookies and another young pitcher who has done his best work in relief. Yes, Price opted out, and yes, Kershaw’s back and Buehler’s blister. There is always some reason why we do not win a title, just bad luck, from year to year? And I will add that if you ever listen to Roberts after a playoff loss, you would not be impressed, as he rather stubbornly tries to explain how he made all the right choices, he thinks we played well, except for this or that, things are just fine–until the season is over, and he will tell us how proud he is of the team, and that we just didn’t quite go all the way, again. I will say this: if we rally and pull out this series against the Braves, it will be very impressive, and I will say just that. But I think that both Atlanta and Tampa Bay have better bullpens than we do, and at this point, better staffs overall, and the World Series will likely feature those two upcoming franchises.
One more add: it is pretty bothersome to see that with the best record in baseball, we are playing in front of fans who mostly favor the Braves, because Georgia is a lot closer to Texas. If the same game as last night was played in Dodger Stadium, we may well have won it. We have a potential of seven games where the crowd, such as it is, is going to be for the other team, and that is ridiculous, the NL playoffs should have been played in California. But that is an obstacle that a great team must overcome. And a great manager, which we do not have, whether or not one is more positive about Roberts in general.
Good write up today Bear. Quite a list of all-star players, huh?
It will be interesting to get more on CK’s back. As STB reports going in the IL means it’s over for him for the year.
If you pitch by committee and match ups, this has the potential of happening. Buehler, Graterol, May and Gonzales did great. Hey, bottom line is you don’t win many with 1 run on 4 hits. Braves pitching was dominant.
Do better today.
Per Ken Gurnick
Clayton Kershaw scratched with back spasms. Tony Gonsoliin starts tonight
Braves earned the win last night, now it’s Kershaw tonight, this is his chance to put the past behind him and get the win the Dodgers need. Play ball.
Thank you, Bear, for a very interesting article. I also remember Paul Goldschmidt, when he played for the Diamondbacks, as being someone who was hard to get out and hit very well against the Dodgers. Also, a nice guy it seems.