Puppies . . . who doesn’t love them? Part of the charm of puppies is training them and teaching them to help them along the way in their growth to dogs. “Raising a puppy is not necessarily easy, but it’s an adventure that’s full of rewards as you develop a deep bond with your pup that will last throughout his life. A lot of patience and a little extra effort will turn your rambunctious pup into a fun‑loving gentleman that will make all the effort that goes into his development worthwhile.” Much the same can be said about developing young baseball players. It’s not easy, but there’s a ton of enjoyment, once they’re trained and able to play. I have to admit that as long as I have been a Dodger fan, I have always been partial to those young pups that are drafted and developed by the Dodgers. I love following them as they come up through the ranks.
June 13, 1973, is a date that not many of you will remember. Certainly, you won’t remember who the Dodgers played that day or what the outcome of the game was (although I’m sure that some of you will take the time to google it). The Dodgers played the Philadelphia Phillies, who absolutely took it to the Dodgers beating them 16-2. What was important about that day and the game was not the score, but rather that it was the first time that Steve Garvey, Davey Lopes, Bill Russell and Ron “the Penguin” Cey played in the infield together. All four had been drafted by the Dodgers and had been developed to take another player’s place in the lineup.
On June 13, 1973, the starting lineup had Cey at 3rd, Russell at short, Lopes at 2nd and Tom Paciorek at 1st. There’s nothing historic about a Cey‑Russell‑Lopes‑Paciorek infield, but that’s why it was so important that the Phillies beat up on the Dodgers. Billy Buckner was being groomed to take over first base from Wes Parker. However, on June 13th, he had the day off and Paciorek took his place in the starting lineup. By the 4th inning, the Dodgers were getting beat so badly, that Walt Alston took center fielder Willie Davis out of the game and moved Paciorek to center. Steve Garvey was then put into the game at first. Ten days later, Alston, partially at the suggestion of Billy Buckner, who had agreed to move to left field, started the foursome together. It would be the first of 833 times that Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started together. They would be teammates and starters until the end of 1981. The pups were allowed to play and were the Dodgers ever rewarded for that decision.
All four players had been drafted by the Dodgers and developed through their system. Back then the Dodgers had a bunch of young prospects looking to make their mark, and many of them played infield. The veteran of the bunch was shortstop Bill Russell, at age 24, who had been drafted as a center fielder and then switched to shortstop. He had gradually taken over the starting position at short from an aging Maury Wills over the previous couple of years. One week into the 1973 season, 25-year-old, Ron Cey became the starting 3b. The power-hitting Cey had also been drafted and developed by the Dodgers. He had taken over 3B from Steve Garvey. Garvey had been groomed to take over 3B from an aging Dick Allen. Unfortunately, due to a football injury, Garvey couldn’t make the throw from 3rd to 1st with any kind of accuracy to save his life. Less than two weeks after Cey was inserted into the lineup, Alston started a 28‑year‑old minor leaguer, Davey Lopes, making perhaps his last chance to stick in the majors. Lopes proved to be an all‑time great late bloomer. The Dodgers were seeking a replacement for Jim Lefebvre, who was released in 1972, and Lee Lacy, who had some memorable moments for the Dodgers, but couldn’t quite produce enough as a starter. At first base, the Dodgers were initially trying another young stud—Bill Buckner. Paciorek was considered a fallback option for first. On June 23, 1972, that all changed as Dodger fans got their first glimpse of what has to be considered by far the most stable infield starting quartet in baseball history. From 1973‑81, they combined for 21 All‑Star selections, with each man receiving at least three. Garvey also won the 1974 NL MVP. They helped the Dodgers win the National League Pennant in 1974, 1977, 1978, and 1981. They won the World Series in 1981. An amazing stretch of success.
Sadly, despite their remarkable accomplishments, only Bill Russell retired as a Dodger. Davey Lopes was the first to leave, as he was traded after the 1981 World Series to make room for another young pup developed by the Dodgers, Steve Sax. The Dodgers let Steve Garvey leave as a free agent after the 1982 season, as they were willing to hand over 1B to Greg Brock, another youngster developed by the Dodgers who had shown prodigious power and hitting skills in the minors. After the 1982 season, Ron Cey also left by way of trade to the Cubs. Once again, the Dodgers had another self-developed youngster (although he had played a few years for them in the outfield), in power hitting Pedro Guererro to whom they were willing to pass the reigns at 3B. Bill Russell stayed with the Dodgers until 1986, however, his playing time started to diminish by 1984, when the Dodgers started to turn the position over to Dave Anderson and Mariano Duncan, who, like the others, were both players developed by the Dodgers.
I have no doubt that the Dodgers faced tremendous risk when they inserted the young pups into the lineup in 1973. Moreover, while I’m certain the Dodgers had some idea of how good they could be, they were still young pups, and no matter what the talent level and training, young pups don’t always pan out. That subject is a post for another day.
As presently situated, the Dodgers of 2020, are not too dissimilar than the Dodgers of 1973. They have a mix of older players, and some, like Ryu, Hill, Freese, and Martin have moved on through free agency and retirement. Thus, a question this offseason, as well as in spring training will be: are Dustin May, Tony Gonsolin and Julio Urias ready to make the step forward and take their place in the starting rotation and the bullpen, without skipping a beat? Can Ross Stripling step it up and be a part of the rotation? Personally, I think they can. What about Will Smith and Austin Barnes? Are they capable of handling catcher at the same level, or better, than Yasmani Grandal and Russ Martin? Once again, I believe they can. I’m not unmindful that Will Smith can turn into this season’s version of the “poor hitting” Austin Barnes. On the other hand, he could be working his butt off this off-season to make himself a better player. The same is true with Barnes. How about Gavin Lux, is he ready to be the next Davey Lopes or Steve Sax at second base? I think so. He certainly has the talent that those players had.
In the past couple of years, Dodger fans have been blessed as we watched Bellinger take over for Adrian Gonzalez(and then the departed Puig). He’s done quite well and he’s only 24. Cory Seager took over shortstop from Jimmy Rollins. He’ll be 26 in April. Is Francisco Lindor a better player than Seager? I’m not that convinced he is. In the past month or so, AC has written a few posts wherein he has taken a very deep look at their comparative statistics, and shown, that statistically, Seager has been the better player (excepting his injured year). I can hear all the “he’s not clutch in the playoffs” arguments now. However, even taking that into consideration, it is my opinion that Seager should remain a Dodger. The only way that I would consider trading him is if I was 90-100% certain that he would not sign with the Dodgers once he hits free agency. Otherwise, he stays a Dodger. Joc Pederson took over for Andre Ethier when he was 23. While he can’t hit left-handed pitching (neither could Ethier), would Nick Castellanos necessarily be better than him in the outfield? Once again, I’m not so sure that he would. Alex Verdugo, who is just 23, did an admirable job taking over for Puig in the lineup. Until he was injured, he had a really good first season. I expect bigger things from him this year. Is Mookie Betts a better player than Verdugo? Today, yes. However, Verdugo has a lot of growth ahead of him and it’s not that absolutely crazy to think that he could be as good as Betts. I’m not saying that he will be, but it’s not completely out of the realm of possibilities, as Verdugo is not lacking in talent. While not developed by the Dodgers, Kike just turned 28. Maybe he turns into a version of Davey Lopes, who broke out in his 28th year. They are similar talents, it’s just a matter of Kike putting it all together and becoming more consistent. And there is still Beatty, Rios, and Garlick. These three have also shown they have the talent and are capable of contributing. How much will they contribute this year?
On the pitching side, Dustin May turned 22 in September. In a small sample size last year he did quite well. He has some of the most wicked stuff that I’ve seen. Is he as good as Gerrit Cole? Nope, not this year. But once again, it’s not that crazy to think that May, in a couple of years, could be as good. Cole was 10-7 in his age 22 year. I’ll take that from May this year. That’s a lot better than the 4-1 we got from Rich Hill last year. In his age 24 year, Cole was lights out. Perhaps May will be as well, as he gets 2 more years under his belt. Julio Urias is 23. Is he as good as Hyun-Jin Ryu?. Right now, no. Can he be? Absolutely. I would not be surprised if this year Urias pitched at a Jack Flaherty level. Last year, Flaherty, in his age 23 season was 11-8. Once again, I would take that from Urias this year. Tony Gonsolin is 25. Is he presently as good as Ken Giles? Nope. Can he be? Absolutely. Waiting in the wings we have some additional young pups in the kennel, Josiah Gray, Mitchell White, Jimmy Lewis, Gerardo Carillo, Marshall Kasowski, and a host of others, who are nipping at the heals of the majors.
This wasn’t meant to be an exhaustive analysis(obviously) of each of the players discussed. Nor is was it intended as an exhaustive analysis of the subject matter. I just wanted to point out that at the end of 1972, Dodger fans, probably hoping for a big trade, or big free-agent signing, had no idea that Steve Garvey, Davey Lopes, Bill Russell, and Ron Cey were about to become the legendary “Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey.” But even crusty old Alston knew enough to let the pups play and look at what happened.
I share, with you, some of the disappointment of how the off-season has developed. Cole or Rendon would have looked nice in Dodger blue. Now that ship has sailed. I remember, however, when he was asked how come the Dodgers had traded a certain prospect who was very highly thought of with Baseball America and the like, that former Dodger GM, Dan Evans said: “We certainly know our prospects a whole lot better than others do.” I expect that the same is true for our current front office. They have a really good idea about who they have in the young pups. Therefore, I have no hesitation, whatsoever, about letting these young pups play. Besides, they’re our pups and I’m excited to see how they do when the spotlight is turned on them.
Great article! Yep, the Dodgers are set to replace any current player that doesn’t sign.
I’m getting a little concerned though re Verdugo’s back. At so young of an age it is taking a long time to heal. How serious is it, and will it be a re occurring problem?
We have no clue, which is why suggestions to trade him are silly. No GM is going to trade for him with questions about his back. He is just going to have to demonstrate how it is. I hope it is fine, because he is an immense talent, but if he’s not fine, Plan B is Joc in RF, platooning with Kike and AJ in LF Platooning with Matt Beaty. 70 HR from the corner outfield positions are very good. I do hope Alex’s back is fine because I think he will be a special player, but I’m from Missouri – show me!
There are lots of reasons why this is the best time in the storied history of the Dodgers to be a fan. and DC articulated them very well. The young pups are worthy of playing. I see nothing wrong with one rookie in the rotation and one or two in the bullpen. Julio Urias is not a rookie and the Dodgers are going o unleash him this year.
A rotation of Buehler, Kershaw, Urias, Maeda, and May could be one of the best in baseball. A lot of people put down Kenta Maeda as a guy who runs out of gas and has to pitch out of the bullpen (actual words). However, in ranking MLB Starters, Kenta Maeda was ranked #64 (Kershaw was #10 and Buehler was #13). I believe that Maeda will be the Dodgers #4 or #5 starter and no other team has a #4 or #5 ranked that high. Kenta Maeda has a career 3.87 ERA. He is a solid back-of-the-rotation guy.
If someone falters, the AF can make a trade at the deadline, but Clevinger and others will cost more now that at the deadline. I get it that fans want to stack the team, but what I don’t think some of you see is how stacked the team already is. Don’t assume Clayton will regress… he may actually be better than last year and he was ranked #10 in all of MLB as a starter. Striker Buehler will keep improving and Julio Urias is a Godsend for this rotation.
The pups need to play and AF can sort out whether there are any needs at the deadline. Great read 2D2!
Nice article 2D2. I, too, love following the young pups as they come up through and from the minor league system and still continue to do so as they reach their goal and arrive at the big league club. I notice you did not mention Chris Taylor. He, along with Hernandez, was not developed by the Dodgers but is only a year older than Kike and very good defensively.
CT# was not left out for any particular reason. Ultimately, while I think that CT3 is the more consistent player now, I think that Kike has the more natural talent and I wrote about him only to make the comparison to Davey Lopes. In my opinion, Kike has similar talent, but for whatever reason, he just hasn’t consistently locked it in yet. My first draft of the post had comments about most every Dodger on the roster, but that was way too long and, frankly, I didn’t have the time to delve into it that deeply.
I like CT3 and think he is going to be a huge asset for the Dodgers this year.
Thank you 2D2. Very good article and analysis. Enjoyed it as always.
Kasten v. Plaschke in the LA Times:
https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/story/2020-01-05/dodgers-ownership-defends-lack-offseason-moves-amid-fan-frustration
That was a good read, thanks for sharing rudybird. Sbuffalo summarizes the interview better in his post than I could. I was encouraged by his comment the roster we see today is not the roster we’ll see on opening day.
Very good points, 2D2. The latest Baseball America listed the Dodgers top 10 prospects and honestly, I can’t think of another team that can match that group. Gavin Lux heads the list with Dustin May, Keibert Ruiz, Tony Gonsolin, Josiah Gray, Jeter Downs, Diego Cartaya, Kody Hoese, Michael Busch and Luis Rodriquez (the top ranked prospect out of Venezuela). The pipeline looks pretty good.
Interesting interview with Stan Kasten in Bill Plaschke’s column in the LA Times this morning. One of Kasten’s better interviews after the disastrous first interview at the Winter Meetings.
He comes out swinging, “The LA Times characterization that everyone hates us has always been childish, superficial and wrong,” Kasten said of his ownership group.
When Plaschke asked how ownership defines success (does he believe seven division championships without a World Series championship is success?). Kinda like the debates here.
Kasten indicates the Dodgers have been successful from a business standpoint, but also said the team is laser-focused on winning a World Series. He challenged the spending complaints, noting the team always has one of the top two or three payrolls in baseball, noting only three teams spent more on payroll than the Dodgers last year and two of them didn’t make the playoffs. “So, to say we don’t spend enough, it is ludicrous.”
When questioned about the leaked memo regarding the Dodgers wanting to stay below the CBT, Kasten said it was important that year, less important the next and not important now. But Kasten said there was never a mandate. He said the Dodgers are still working to improve the roster and the team you see today won’t be the one that enters the post season. He said the Dodgers will exceed the CBT and could go well over it this year.
Kasten also hinted at the potential for big names to still show up.
He challenged Plaschke’s and others opinions that the Dodgers are not committed to winning a World Series, noting the Dodgers payroll of $200 million, the fact the team won 106 games and came within two outs of beating the eventual World Series champ. The suggestion the Dodgers need to be torn apart and the system changed doesn’t work for Kasten.
As to the Cole pursuit, it became clear to the Dodgers that he wanted to sign with the Yankees and the Dodgers were the stalking horse that Scott Boras used to get the number they wanted from New York. Kasten wasn’t upset by Scott’s approach.
He also pointed out that one of the Dodgers goals is to be successful every year, which is one of the reasons the farm system is so important. He also wouldn’t get into the TV deal, which places the blame on Direct TV, but Plaschke notes is one of the reasons for fan anger regarding ownership. He certainly correct on that one.
I see the interview site is listed above.
Jayne Cobb posted this a couple of days ago, but it got caught in spam. I just freed it and am posting it here because it is good:
I love that story. I have heard that Tommy can be difficult. But I wouldn’t just blame it on his age. Autograph collectors have changed quite a bit in recent years. It was once just kids and hard core baseball geeks.
I don’t collect but my son (12) is a huge collector. He mostly focuses on getting a team signed ball from each team in the CA league. Besides that he has his favorite players sign the foul balls he chases down at each minor league game. Players generally have no problem signing for kids and regulars who go to a lot of games. Especially before the game starts. They know if somebody is there an hour before first pitch they are there as fans. Not autograph hounds. The hounds don’t buy tickets. They only wait outside for the players to come out to the bus or parking lot.
What has changed, and seems to get worse every year are the pros and semi pro autograph dealers. Just 4 or 5 years ago they generally only came around Rancho games when there was a MLB player down on rehab from the big club. Or some consensus mega prospect drafted in the early 1st round. That is no longer the case. They are out after almost every game now chasing anybody in the top 100 list. And they aren’t out there with a scuffed up CA League baseball and a blue Bic pen. They have 16 x 20 glossy photos affixed to cardboard with a selection of paint pens to choose from. And everybody knows, especially the players, that those photos will be on eBay within hours. It’s gotten so bad in Rancho that security now offers the players the option of being escorted out of the back of the stadium to the player parking lot. No autographs for anybody after the game.
And the autograph hounds are aggressive. And rude. I specifically remember a game last year in San Bernardino where my son was given the lineup card by the manager of the San Jose Giants. He asked for it an hour before the game when they were chatting next to the dugout (my son loves to talk to anybody about baseball, even the enemy). He waited outside the locker room and had the entire team sign the card. Even the base coaches. The autograph hounds didn’t ask for any autographs. Because they were waiting for ONE guy. The last guy out was Joey Bart. The 2nd player picked in the 2018 draft. My son walked up to him and said the same thing he said to every player on the team; “hey Joey, can you help me knock out this lineup card”. Bart smiled at him and said “absolutely kid”. He signed a nice full signature on his spot on the card. He then proceeded to walk by the 10 adults that rushed him with their 16 x 20 photos, without even making eye contact. A couple cussed him out. He just went to the bus.
Bart also signed a ball for my son the next day. Along with a couple other kids lined up next to the dugout before the game. No adults.
Don’t assume Tommy is getting grouchy with age. He’s dealing with the same BS as everybody in the sport. Down to the minor leaguers. Autograph hounds are out of control. Not the fans. The guys who sell on eBay. And it’s driving everybody nuts. Especially the real fans.
This is from James Moya. I am not going to even give an opinion, but you can:
Friedman has been a GM/President of Baseball Operations for 14 years and has zero championships to show for it. He has had opportunities to help the Dodgers get over the hump at trade deadlines and the off seasons and has failed to do so.
What I see is a guy who says one thing, then does entirely the opposite. All winter long there have been rumors, none of which has been true. So, how is a dedicated fan supposed to take that? Myself, after watching Friedman work over the last 5 off season, I expect little, and in that sense, he never fails to deliver. At this point this off season, all the major free agents except one have signed. Josh Donaldson. Dodgers were linked to him early until the salary rumors hit 100 million and 4 years. AF not giving that kind of deal to a guy pushing 35. What this is about is fans who buy into he way AF does business, and then just as blindly without researching anything make excuses for his failures. At this point in his Dodger tenure he has made far more head scratching signings and trades than he has block busters. He has never signed a significant free agent from another team and has never given out a 9 figure contract to any player, and sorry, you have to do that to draw a player like Rendon to your team. For every Kike, Max Muncy and Taylor, there are many more McCarthy, Anderson, Kazmir types coming to LA. 2019’s exit from the playoffs was another example of the arrogance of this FO that this team, despite obvious weakness in the pen, and starting pitching that was over matched in a short series against Strasburg-Scherzer, did little to bolster the pen or the rotation before it was too late. The meat of this team is mainly from Colletti and White’s regime. Buehler is the first AF product to make a significant contribution. The Dodgers are a collection of utility players. They have no real super stars save Bellinger and Kershaw. Buehler is on his way to that status. In a town known for superstars, this is unacceptable to the bulk of the fan base. Most of us realize that this team is owned by a corporation. Their main goal is making money for the ownership group and that they are doing hand over foot. A vast majority of Dodger fans still cannot see the team on TV. Ticket prices, already high by any standards, have skyrocketed since they took over, going up almost every year, as have concessions and parking. The average family of 4 is going to spend close to 300 dollars for one game. Too steep for my pocket book. They are pricing the average fan right out of the game. It is becoming elitist. So yeah, you are going to get a lot of negativity because it is warranted. Had AF at least gotten the team to a title, it would not be so harsh. But he is as over rated as he is inept.
How’s that for a take bullies
I can certainly understand the frustration associated with TV access to Dodger games and ticket prices. It’s criminal, in my mind, that half of city of LA have no way to legally watch the Dodgers, at any price. The only reason I have Spectrum (I’m fortunate that it’s an option in my area) is for Dodger games. And yes, the ticket prices are high, but not much more so than any other team in a large market. Especially one that has won their division 7 years in a row. The parking is outrageous, but that’s still McCourt (we’ll never truly be rid of that SOB’s stink). So, I agree. There are legitimate complaints.
But the sanctimonious nonsense about AF and ownership being greedy bastards who don’t want to win is just pointless to debate. Winning a World Series is hard. The Cubs waiting more than a century. The Red Sox waited 86 years. If winning a WS is the only measure of success, predicting failure is the single easiest bet in baseball. You’ll be right almost every year. My record for predicting the State Lottery has been immaculate. I expect to lose every time I buy a ticket. I must have supernatural, precognitive insight because I’ve been correct…..every time!
People like James Moya have far too high of an opinion of themselves to actually add any insight to a discussion.
I guess this is what James believes, no insults or name calling is needed, he just is not a very knowledgeable Dodger fan and I will pass over all his comments in the future, nothing can be learned from him, I feel sorry for him.
First and foremost excellent column today. I too remember the glory days of Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey. Although, I never warmed up to Lopes as he took 2nd base from my favorite Lee Lacy; the Kike’ CT3 of his time.
My problem with the premise is that even as the pups took over in 1973, they did not win a WS until 1981, and even then they should not have even been there. Cincinnati was the best team in the NL West, but lost to the Dodgers in the 1st half because the Dodgers played one more game, and the Astros were unbelievable in the 2nd half. The Dodgers were very fortunate because of Fernando and especially Burt Hooten in the playoffs. Again there is that premise that one needs luck to go along with talent to win a WS.
Lopes was already losing his 2B position to Sax as Lopes barely hit above the Mendoza line in 1981.
Now taking the premise to the current year. I agree that May and Urias will both be better than Rich Hill’s 58 innings this year, and that eventually May will be better than Ryu. I have a problem envisioning Alex Verdugo ever being the equal of Mookie Betts, but then again, who knows what the future will bring. And while the pups did get to the WS in 1974, it was the Big Red Machine that was the team of that era. That 1973 team did not fully gel until 1977.
So while the 1973 pups did get the WS four times, the one time that they did win, they were not the best team in the NL West and benefited from the strike shortened season. I do not want to wait for May/Urias/Gonsolin/Verdugo/Lux to gel. I am not saying that this team cannot win, but I would be far more comfortable if Mookie was in RF, Mike Clevinger (or Eduardo Rodriguez) in the rotation, and Ken Giles in the bullpen. Remember it was the trade for Burt Hooten that proved to be the difference in 1981. I recognize that both Cey and Garvey had very good series, but Hooten tied it all up for the “team” victory.
Thank you AC! My premise was not that the Dodgers should just let the youngsters play and do nothing else. Perhaps I wasn’t too clear on that. I merely wanted to point out that in of itself, we should be afraid of letting the young, fresh talent play. However, it was not my intent to argue that’s enough to get the big prize. It’s my opinion, that If the Dodgers do nothing else but let the pups play, it will not be enough to get a world series championship. That’s not likely, unless a lot of unexpected things happen(May turns into a 21 year old Dwight Gooden, Urias resembles a 2011 Clayton Kershaw, etc). I think we are missing a piece or two to get us over the hump. Is Mookie Betts that piece? I wouldn’t be unhappy if he was on the Dodgers by spring training. Would I trade Verdugo for Betts? In a heart beat. Would I be sad, the RedSox threw in Rodriguez to sweeten the pot? Not at all. I’m not that big of a Clevinger fan. I would rather have Rodriguez, or Charlie Morton, though I know the likelihood of acquiring either is the same as me throwing out the first pitch of game one o the World Series.
As I responded to DodgerBlueMom earlier, this article started out being about 3 or 4 times longer than it ended up being. The 1973 team was different than the 2020 team. After the 1972 season, the Dodgers made a “bold” move and traded for Andy Messersmith. For the 3 years he was with the Dodgers, he was well worth the prospect capital given up for him. Though at the time I was ticked that they would trade Garbarkewitz, Valentine and Singer(among others) for him. That was a trade that worked out well for the Dodgers.
Prospects are just that – until they prove otherwise. Yes, the Dodgers have to build from within but they can’t assume that all of their prospects will pan out.
Look at some of the names mentioned by 2d2. The heir apparent to Steve Garvey, Greg Brock managed a slash line of .248/.338/.399/.737. His successor, another home grown talent, was Franklin Stubbs. He slashed .232/.303/.404/.707. They end up acquiring Eddie Murray to play 1B in 1989 and don’t find a homegrown talent to play 1B until Eric Karros comes up in 1992. So, for 10 years between 1983 and 1992, the Dodgers had 2 homegrown duds and a Hall of Famer from another team playing 1B.
The morals of the story?
1 – Your prospects don’t always pan out. So have a Plan B.
2 – Sometimes you have to acquire talent from other MLB teams via trade or free agency to fill in the gaps that your farm system can’t.
Even the ’73 – .82 Dodgers did this. Their best OF during this period were Dusty Baker (trade acquisition) and Reggie Smith (trade acquisition). Starting pitchers included Tommy John (trade), Burt Hooton (trade), and Jerry Reuss (trade).
By the way, does anyone here remember having a rotation with 2 starters with as little experience as Urias and May?
Yes. 1995. The Dodgers had Ismael Valdez and Nomo. Both had much less experience than Urias and Valdez had about as much as Dustin May. Nomo and Valdez both had excellent seasons. Nomo won ROY.
Let’s be fair. If you are going to mention trades, you have to include the ones that cost the Dodgers Piazza, Konerko, Sheffield, and Pedro. What if none of the trades were made? We will never know!
And I agree that you can’t really know what a prospect is capable of until they see substantial big league time. However, the Dodgers have been quite successful in recent years developing their prospects into productive big leaguers. More so than most organizations. And the only way to know which prospects are going to pan out is to keep them and see. I remember eagerly awaiting the arrival of Billy Ashley in the mid 90s. The guy destroyed AAA. Triple Crown numbers. He wasn’t a good big leaguer. I remember Andy LaRouch. He was in the Dodger system about the same time the Angels had a kid named Brandon Wood who was one of the greatest minor league hitters ever. Neither were good major leaguers. But I also remember the Dodgers trade for Delino Deshields. And the often referenced Jeff Shaw trade. Those trades still make me sick. In both trades we gave up our #1 prospect for a proven MLB player. Both contributed very little.
It’s not that we all believe these youngsters will all become stars. I just tend to think, given the trades that have been thrown about, that I like the odds of keeping them more than the odds of what we will get in production if we trade them. Especially given the track record of talent evaluation in the Dodgers org. Which is the best in baseball. Nobody has ever stacked a system with talent while winning their division for 7 years in a row. Astros and Cubs tanked to build their system. We have a stacked system and got to the WS two years in a row. The Dodgers built theirs by being better at picking talent than everybody else. Not from having the first picks in the draft. It’s a calculated bet. In most scenarios I’ve seen for several years, I put my chips on the Dodgers ability to develop these kids.
A Verdugo, Ruiz, Grove trade for Betts trade as discussed previously seems better after reading the article on Dodgers website today.
Great stuff 2D2. I especially enjoyed the stuff on the early 70 when the core of Dodgers came up together. If my memory serves, the 1970 Spokane Indians, than the AAA franchise, were perhaps the best minor league team, ever. As I recall Garvey was at third, and you’re right, he couldn’t throw the ball across the diamond. Cey was still in AA in Albuquerque. Bobby Valentine was at short and I figured he would be the next Dodger shortstop. He was young, fast and arrogant and reported to have been a big running back recruit by USC. That’s what we all heard. At 2nd was an old AAA vet, Bart Shirley. Tommy Hutton was a great glove at 1st and racked it in AAA (traded to the Phillies in 72). I think Lopes was in left. Bill Russell in center before he moved to short, Tom Paciorek and Bill Buckner filling out the outfield. Charlie Hough and a young Doyle Alexander were pitchers of note on this squad. Tommy Lasorda was the skipper, his 2nd year as a AAA manager. The interesting thing to me is that the eventual starters at short (Russell) and 2nd (Lopes) were were outfielders. You usually see the opposite. Thanks again 2D2. Very good post.
Sounds like Kasten doesn’t entirely trust the young pups to eget it done this year. Waiting until the trade deadline and evaluating the young pups is probably the best move unless Cleveland, Boston and the Mets are still in the playoff race and no stars are available
As for James Moya. He is not alone in his frustration with the Dodgers and AF. Just because most of us here would disagree with him why can’t we tolerate a differing opinion that thousands of other Dodger fans have. I found him amusing. And to mock other Dodger sites as third grade is just plain arrogant!
That’s your opinion… I was being kind.
What I found most disagreeable with him was his lack of literacy and bad spelling. And he is supposed to be a Journalism student! His English classes must have conflicted with his daily nap time. He was supposed to be one of the writers on DodgerReport but I don’t remember seeing articles written by him. he better change his major to Burger Flipping…
My beef with James is that he apparently thinks that name calling, profanity, bullying and non-sequiturs are the same as argument and exposition.
I was going to post excerpts from Thursday but they have apparently been taken down by our host.
It’s fine to disagree. It’s not OK to name call or bully.
Take a position and support it with facts and logic – have a point of view and exposit it – don’t yell and scream and think that it’s the same as discussion or argument.
OK, some of you are stuck in the box. Let’s think outside the box.
I have no idea what might happen, but I think it’s likely that Houston at least gets a year or two post-season ban and loss of some draft picks. They are already in rebuild mode, so this will hurt them and JV doesn’t want to be on a team not going to the post-season.
The only drawback to Verlander is that his career record in the World Series is 0-6 and his ERA is 5.68. Clayton is 1-2 with a 5.40 ERA in World Series play.
What to do? Unload some contracts, get some salary relief, get prospects back. So, the Astros trade Justin Verlander to the Dodgers for Dustin May and Michael Grove. Think about that.
UPDATE ON VERDUGO’S BACK: https://www.mlb.com/dodgers/news/alex-verdugo-back-injury-issues
I realize there is a huge amount of evidence to weigh in the Astros fiasco, but I wish that MLB would make their decision on penalties known soon. If Houston is banned from post season play for a year or two (which I think would be fair), it could lead to their unloading a lot of guys who only have a couple years left on their contracts.
You mention Verlander but there is also Greinke, Springer, Correa and McCullers. Depending upon how severe the penalty is, they could do a major tear down and try to move all those guys for prospects. Maybe that’s what Friedman is waiting for.
Bingo!
I do not like the idea of waiting and hoping for a decision from the Commissioner. Good leadership dictates what action to pursue. They do not wait for others. As has been discussed below, I am more pessimistic that Houston will be banned from post season. The organization will get a significant fine. Luhnow, Hinch, and Cora should be suspended. The FO person who came up with the idea and put it in motion should be banned for life. There could be some draft penalties and international free agent restrictions.
We know that Mookie Betts is available. We know he is available with or without David Price. We know Frankie Lindor is available. We know that he is available with or without Mike Clevinger. We know Ken Giles is available. I would hope that AF is looking into a possible trade for Eduardo Rodriguez (very unlikely, but he does have a $9.5MM projected arbitration salary. Why wait to hear from the commissioner. If you want Springer and Greinke make an offer. Maybe it gets better later on, but maybe that will open it up to more teams. AF is in the enviable position with financial flexibility and prospect cache’ to make something happen.
As I write this, I am absolutely positively sure that AF is not waiting on anyone. He will dictate his comfort trade and if it does not fit into his parameters, he will walk. I think that is where many fans become frustrated. Many do not believe his comfort zone is wide enough for AF to take a chance to step out of it. I do not count the Gerrit Cole offer because as Kasten said, they knew all along that Cole was going to NYY and that Boras used the Dodgers to bid up what Cole would eventually get from NYY. The same for Harper last year.
AF looks to see what he can get with the least amount he has to give up. By that time, many options are gone. AF should be applauded for getting Darvish and Machado for what he did give up. He has a knack for spotting talent below the surface. He has developed a farm system that is the envy of MLB. As Dodgerrick stated, it isn’t just the talent, but the development programs that co-exist with that talent. One of the areas of need for the Dodgers is a reliable RH bat. Neither AJ Pollock or Justin Turner can be counted on to play 2/3 of the games, and then who, Kyle Garlick? Mookie Betts is available. Step up and get it done. See what it would take to add in Eduardo Rodriguez instead of David Price, but if it requires Price, bite the bullet. AF you take charge, not Rob Manfred.
AC, why do you spin the Darvish/Machado rentals as something to hold up and applaud? Both of them fell flat on their faces and could not really help the team in the long run so they weren’t retained. Darvish is the perfect example of a prospect who couldn’t breakout and give concrete results in his career. He still can’t. Manny, otoh, has some bonafides but not enough to warrant the kind of money he wanted. If you hold these up as shrewd acquisitions, it is a misrepresentation of the facts. They were rentals and primarily a gamble that didn’t pay off. This doesn’t mean that the FO should not take a gamble. To me, it represents some of the failures that AF has had acquiring talent from outside the organization. I was a fan of Darvish and was hopeful he could help but I immediately saw someone who was psychologically unprepared for pressure and could not get himself together. Manny got lucky, ultimately getting a contract that set him and his heirs up for life. He’s someone I never cared for.
As unfortunate a situation that James has put himself into, he has legitimate concerns but doesn’t voice them with any real logic. Whining over and over again is not conducive to sound reasoning or readin through a blog, although his reasons about the FO are shared by many, including myself. Even badmouthing a boneheaded manager like Doc is tiring to listen to, but at the same time, it is true that he has a minus WAR. It is also true that CK is a playoff choke, but we all know that he is still an excellent pitcher but cannot be relied on come playoffs. We would all love to change this, but being negative about him doesn’t really help anything. What helps is getting the FO to recognize these things and make some changes that will help the team win. As I’ve said before, until they establish a core, this team will win only by luck and the poor competition that our division has put up in the last several years.
I applaud the Machado and Darvish deals because AF did something to try to give LAD the advantage, but it just did not work. You and others would have gone off and scorned AF for not signing Machado or Darvish when they were available. Machado was a huge disappointment. Extremely overhyped and overpaid. But without Machado, the Dodgers do not even get to the NLDS, much less to the WS. Darvish was very good in the 2017 NLDS and NLCS. He had a very bad WS, but he should not have had to start Game 7 if KJ or Kersh had done their jobs. Or if Doc had selected Wood to start Game 7. Wood was seemingly the only one who figured out how to counter the cheating. But he would have been pitching at Dodger Stadium in Game 7 where he has always been good. Or Doc did not take out Hill so early in Game 2.
You complain when AF does nothing and again when he does even though it’s the PLAYERS and MANAGERS that did not come through. I don’t remember AF giving up a HR to Marwin Gonzalez on an O-2 pitch in the 9th inning of 2017 WS Game 2 to tie the score. It wasn’t Yu Darvish. I don’t remember AF squandering a 4-0 lead and a 7-4 lead in Game 5. It wasn’t Yu Darvish. AF has his own demons, but quit blaming him for when the players fail.
You want to bag on AF, go ahead. Many on here will never like AF. But don’t back it up by saying that the Darvish and Machado acquisitions were not good solely because the team laid down when it counted. That’s not on AF. He did his job. He got the players. What’s he supposed to be a psychic to know which of the players are going to choke?
AC, there was no reply button under your reply to me so I’m doing it here.
Where did I say he should not have signed YU/Manny as a rental? Nowhere! I said they should take a gamble. You are putting words in my mouth and not really reading what I’m writing or getting my sentiment. The only thing I’m complaining about is the poor record that AF has with acquiring outside talent. I applaud his farm work and restraint in paying $400M for Cole. I do not applaud letting Cole go by the first time he came up for signing along with players like JDM, Yelich, etc. Why you keep insisting that AF can do nothing right in my eyes is your misnomer and I’d appreciate it if you would stop saying this.
Do you think MLB would ban them from the playoffs? It would be justified. But I have less faith that MLB will want to hurt the Houston market. Houston today isn’t what it was 30/40 years ago. It’s a massive market now. I expect draconian punishment for front office. Possibly a permanent ban or two. Losing draft picks and international signing. I have a feeling they will give the players a way out (cooperation with the investigation) and hope everybody forgets. Maybe I’m just jaded.
You may be jaded but you’re probably correct. I very much doubt they’ll ban them from post season play. I was just hoping they would so that my scenario above might play out. Based on past penalties draft picks, international signings and front office punishment is usually the way it goes. Of course, this may have been started by actual on-the-field players, so maybe the penalty will be something we haven’t seen before.
I’ve been reading with interest the back and forth between Moya and MT and I see large similarities with the world in general today. People don’t converse and exchange ideas any more. They just scream at each other, each figuring if he screams the loudest his opinion will be taken as fact.
In the midst of all of your spewing James, you have some valid points, but you lose me when you back up your points with the crap you throw out at the other commenters here, insulting them as though their opinions don’t mean anything.
As far as our host is concerned (and I suppose this could get me banned), you go by the rule that if you don’t like a commenter you ban him because the game is being played with your ball, so to speak. Instead of getting in his face, why not try to get him to comment without all the anger you’re both flinging back and forth at each other. Difference of opinion is exactly what makes this blog such a good source for Dodger-related discussion.
And just out of curiosity, one last question Mark, if you banned him why did you post Moya’s comment today? Isn’t posting his comment like that the same as letting him post it directly to this website?
Having a different opinion than me won’t get you banned. Disagreeing with me won’t get you banned. Being a nitwit will!
… and if you go back and check, you will find I don’t call people names unless that have asked for it… usually by making some cloaked reference or by direct reference.
Numerous other commenters asked me to ban him for some time. He was just escalating his comments so that I would do that. I am like the Marines – no greater friend – no worse enemy. I have only banned a few people and they all deserved it and in most cases, I goy dozens of e-mails asking me to.
Yes, it is ALMOST like letting him post, but I thought it worthwhile.
A psychoanalyst would have a field day with you, Mark.
Agree with Singing, except the burden shouldn’t be on the host to get the person attending his party to be socially acceptable.
An interesting note:
The Dodgers’ player development system has improved markedly since Friedman et al have taken over. It’s not just the acquisition of talent – it’s getting productive talent from the minors to the majors.
But – other than Walker Buehler, the Dodgers have not successfully matriculated a starting pitcher from the minors to the majors since Kershaw in 2009 and Billingsly in 2006. I don’t count Stripling as he’s only been a starting pitcher really in 1 season. All of the Dodgers’ other “rookies” have been guys like Ryu, Maeda and guys like that who were really veteran pitchers but in Korea or Japan.
If the Dodgers have 2 slots in their rotation with inexperienced pictures like Urias or May, it would be very unusual. And in response to JC, Nomo was not an inexperienced pitcher when he debuted for the Dodgers in 1995 – he was an established star in Japan who pitched 235 innings as a 21 year old in the Japan Pacific League who came straight to MLB after he signed with LA. Not the same as Dustin May or Julio Urias at all.
I think the matriculation is beginning.
May will make it THIS year.
Urias is not your garden variety of inexperienced starter. I am very, very confident in Julio. I think that this time next year, Buehler and Urias will be mentioned in the same breath.
Next year, look for Jo Jo Gray.
Starting pitchers are hard to develop, but the development is in process.
Next in line are Jimmy Lewis, Ryan Pepiot, Robinson Ortiz, and Andre Jackson… two to four years away. Two or three won’t make it… those are the odds.
Gonsolin could be in that group, but I love him in the pen.
All Gonsolin needs is a haircut and shave to be ready for 2020. Turner would look younger if he did the same. I will now go back to chasing people off my lawn.
Kasten does not believe the fans are upset because la draws almost 4 million per. He points out the payroll that has been spent the last couple of years but what he doesn’t say is that about 30-40 mil is dead money. That doesn’t include hill and pollock at about 25-30 mil who didn’t hardly play. The decisions that were made to spend money certainly did not help the team on the field. I understand the owners are reluctant to throw more money in the wind. 200 million would be great if the players were actually on the field. I wonder who kasten thinks is responsible for the waste?
Fans like me are not upset at the amount of money spent but rather the amount wasted. So the ownership keeps saying but look how much we are spending. True, but until they can get out from under the wasteful spending they are not going to sign any stars. They are getting close to getting kazmir, sierra, and the like off the payroll.
Last year, the Yankees had these bad contracts:
Ellsbury $21 M
Stanton $26 M
Betances – $7.5 Million
Hicks – $10 M
They got little to no production from that group.
All teams have their issues… especially when you have high payrolls.
Freidman made some big mistakes on the Cubans and International Signings. They will go away soon. He learned his lesson.
MT, that’s an all in move for Verlander giving up May and Grove. I just like Clevinger better. He’s younger and more affordable. But he may not be available. But I would try to make an offer they couldn’t refuse around May and Ruiz and lesser players or May and Downs plus others. Good point about Astros and if they break up that team with a lot of talent thrown into the mix. It would also lower the price for Lindor and Betts as well. Maybe the waiting game will prove to be wisest. And I’ve been playing checkers and AF is ……
No way I would give up Dustin May in a trade for Lindor or Verlander or Clevinger. The Dodgers have enough prospects to make any deal they think can improve the roster without including May or Gavin Lux. I just don’t see Clevinger being traded. Why would the Indians do that?
As far as prospects are concerned, I really believe the Dodgers have the tools, tech and the teaching methods to better determine if those players are legit. The team has not traded key foundation assets like Seager, Buehler, Bellinger, Smith, Pederson, Verdugo and Lux. This is the best group of pitching prospects I’ve seen.
If Kike used the entire field to hit, if he didn’t try to pull everything, his dimension as a player would change completely.
He has a good glove and a great arm and the ability to make spectacular plays, his power is quite good, he could put year on year .275, 25HR, 80 RBI, but he has that bad habit in his swing swing to pull everything It makes the balls vulnerable in the outside corner and does not allow a good avg.
Dido. Probably the most frustrating guy on the team to watch at times.
It’s like a vice, when you think you’ve already mastered it, you fall back into the same mistakes.
Kike can have bright periods when he is using the whole field but then he gets into long periods where he wants to pull everything for LF and they throw a cocktail of curves and sliders outside and it’s an easy out and then he gets into a hole.
sbuff you’re right that the Dodgers haven’t traded a key young foundational piece yet but we also haven’t won a WS either. One of the values of having a deep and talented group of young players is to trade for that key missing piece that can get you a WS. Some think it’s Lindor, some Betts. I think it’s an ace starting pitcher. I like Clevinger and would give up May plus some others. We’d still have Buehler, Urias, Gray and Gonsolin. Add Clevinger and that’s a WS winning rotation along with Kersh at # 4. Some times you have to change up from a strategy that hasn’t got you over the finish line
Everyone wants Clevinger. The only time Cleveland ever mentioned Clevinger was to include him to get AF to make Lux available. Cleveland has three years of control with Clevinger, they believe they can make it to the playoffs, and Clevinger/Bieber would make a nice 1-2 punch. Why would Cleveland trade him without getting the one player they want from LAD? Gavin Lux is who Cleveland wants. Might as well ask for Jack Flaherty or Mike Soroka or even Eduardo Rodriguez. AF will get the same response.
I can see it now. AF gets ripped because he could not get Mike Clevinger in a trade. He’s already taking heat because he could not convince Gerrit Cole that he really did not want to be a NYY.
Going after Betts makes the most sense. I’d take Price with him if I could offload Pollock in the deal. Boston adds a piece and the Dodgers add Ruiz. Mark tells us for 10 years it was a dope fiend move to move Kaybear even though the Dodgers win it all next year.
What Mark hasn’t said is that there are actually dope fiend moves that should be made. Betts may be one of them.
I wonder when there will be a ruling on Houston? If they are suspended from the postseason all of a sudden they are sitting with huge contracts of Verlander, Greinke, altuve, and springer. Springer would be a good 1 year rental and cheaper than Betts. Verlander supposedly wanted to be a dodger before he was a lastro. Verlander is a 2 year window while price is 3. He hasn’t been great in the playoffs by any means. Greinke anyone? At 24 million I don’t think so but he is a great competitor and not a bad hitter. A suspension would put the lastro in a bit of a panic.
Maybe AF knows when the ruling is and that would tighten up the trade market. I know MT and STB have speculated on this. If the suspension becomes a reality I would take Verlander/springer over Betts/Price and I think it would be more likely. If I were Boston I would be frantically trying to make a move before this happens.
What if as you say Boston is motivated to move Betts and Price in anticipation of any potential post season ban for Houston, and AF is waiting for that ruling, and Arte Moreno comes in and gets them instead of the Dodgers? Or another team? And then the ruling comes down and there is no post season ban. No Betts/Price. No Verlander/Springer. And AF will get lambasted because he could not pull the trigger. If he wants Betts/Price…get them. If he wants Verlander/Springer make an offer that Luhnow can’t refuse. If you do not want to do anything except wait for the trade deadline, then do nothing. But don’t let Rob Manfred determine your destiny.
Precisely!
BANG!
https://i2.wp.com/www.quotespedia.org/superawesome/2019/07/28072019008.jpg?fit=1200%2C750&ssl=1
And that’s why AF’s paycheck is bigger than all of ours put together!
1 – Houston won’t be banned from the post-season. There’s no precedent for it.
2 – Kasten’s view that the fans aren’t upset because they keep coming to the games is just wrong. You can still be a fan, want to see the team and still be frustrated with the lack of progress this off-season (so far).Both things can be true at the same time.
3 – It may cost the team attendance, etc. if the fan base gets frustrated enough, but probably won’t this year.
4 – I totally agree with the very deliberate speed at which Friedman seems to move when deciding to put a deal together.I couldn’t agree more with AC that they need to be pro-active and decide what move to make, if any, on their own terms.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6yNISxn0oX/?utm_source=ig_embed
… and the Top team never got to the World Series, while the team with the 2nd most wins got there twice but did not win.
Also frustrated with Dodger brass that most of us fans still can’t watch the darn games on tv
How is that the Dodger Brass’ fault?
AF just will not trade a farm kid he thinks will be a good major league player. May and Lux will not be traded. I think he and his staff are very good at identifying these kids. Look at the kids he traded. Most of them have not really made it. If I was an opposing GM, I would not trade with the Dodgers. Chances are the players I would receive from the Dodgers are not going to be all stars. The only one may be Ruiz. The catching position is well stocked and AF may give up Ruiz for that reason.