Yesterday’s article from 2D2 inspired the reincarnation of an article I have been toying with for a bit. I am not adverse to Doc or a big advocate. He is a good communicator and his team loves him. But he is not the best in-game manager, and the mistakes he does make (as every manager does) gets blown up because of when they happen. Game 2 of the 2017 WS and pulling Rich Hill. Why because he would have been facing the top of the order for the 3rd time, and the algorithms said that Hill should not face the lineup for a third time. This was obviously a discussion the FO had with Doc, but Doc should have had the intestinal fortitude to make the observation that Hill was pitching fine and should have been able to go back out with someone warming up behind him. They did not lose the game because of that move, but it was a sign that Doc was not managing based on what he saw right in front of him. But he obviously didn’t make any mistakes in the NLDS or NLCS.
Maybe he made mistakes in the 2018 WS, but Boston was clearly a better team. So he gets a pass from me.
But Game 5 of the NLDS was a real head scratcher. The number of mistakes were evident from the use of Kershaw in the 8th to both Rendon and Soto to Kelly in the 10th. Kelly pitched a great 8th, but like most of the year, his 2nd inning was not too good. What was he waiting for to use Jansen. Game 5, all hands on deck.
But Doc is not the only LAD manager to have made conspicuous mistakes in critical games for all to see. Two of the best LAD managers may have cost their team a WS spot except for their blunders. In 1962, in a 3 game playoff series against the Giants, the series was tied 1 game to 1. The Dodgers were ahead in the 9th with a 4-2 lead. The usually reliable Ed Roebuck allowed 2 hits and 2 walks to bring the Giants within a run and the bases loaded. With Don Drysdale also warming up, Alston brought in Stan Williams. Stan promptly gave up a sac fly to tie the game. He then uncorked a wild pitch moving the runners up to 2nd and 3rd. He intentionally walked Ed Bailey and then made the mistake of unintentionally walking in a run. Perranoski came in and got the ground ball to Larry Burright who booted it for an error and the 4th run of the inning scored, and the Giants retired the side in the 9th to win 6-4 and advance to the WS. To this day most Dodger fans cannot understand why it was Williams over Drysdale. I remember that game as if it was yesterday. I was at school with my transistor radio (rule breaker) and I had it on the bleachers so everyone could hear the game. Lee Avalos, one of my so called friends, was a Giants fan, and when the Giants won he threw my radio in the air and broke it. I made enough in allowance and paper route that I was able to buy a new one for the next season.
One of the sad results of that game was that Stan Williams felt ostracized by the Dodgers after that game, and feels the same today. Below is an article about how Williams felt.
https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/la-sp-stan-williams-plaschke-20180825-story.html
Another playoff game that resulted in a loss due to some curious bullpen management was Game 6 of the 1985 NLCS with the Cardinals. Game 5 was tough enough when Tom Niedenfuer allowed the walk-off HR to Ozzie Smith, Smith’s 1st HR from the left side. But Game 6 was a very bitter pill to swallow. Orel didn’t pitch his best game, but left with one out in the 7th with a 4-2 lead and two runners on. Tom Niedenfuer relieved Orel and promptly gave up a two run triple to Willie McGee to knot the game at 4-4. The Dodgers picked up a run in the 8th and had a 5-4 lead going into the 9th, when everything went bad. After suffering the loss in Game 5, Niedenfuer was now looking for the win. After striking out Cesar Cedeno, Niedenfuer’s nemesis Willie McGee singles and Ozzie Smith walk. After Tommy Herr grounded out sending McGee and Smith up a base, there was a pivotal decision to make; pitch to Jack Clark or intentionally walk him. I suppose there was a third option, pitch around him and if you walk him, you pitch to Andy Van Slyke who was having a horrible series. Lasorda chose to pitch to Clark, and Clark proceeded to pummel Niedenfuer’s first pitch 450 feet for a three-run HR which was basically the ball game.
I am not excusing Doc’s horrible bullpen management in Game 5, but these get magnified in playoff situations. If Stan Williams comes in and shuts down the Giants instead of issuing walks and wild pitches, Alston would never have been second-guessed for choosing Williams over Drysdale. If Niedenfuer struck out Jack Clark as he did in the 7th inning, nobody would be second guessing Lasorda. If Kershaw gets Rendon and Soto, nobody is second-guessing Doc. But alas, all three mismanaged bullpen situations which resulted in three heart breaking critical losses in an elimination game. The ’62 Dodgers only had to wait 1 year before they were back in the WS and finished off NYY in 4. The’85 Dodgers needed three years before they could get back to the WS and win the last of the LAD WS championships. Smokey and Tommy seemingly learned from their mistakes…will Doc?
All good managers get in situations that blow in in their face. It’s the downside of having a good team. If the team/manager isn’t good enough to get to the playoffs, similarly bad decisions don’t get exposed during the regular season (for example, using Rodney in game 4. He has his moments but also gave up a 3 run homer to Justin Turner when the Dodgers played Washington this year).
While last nights game highlighted the need for robo umps, there is this:
Now, a caveat: As the beta testing in the Arizona Fall League this month has shown, the robot ump needs work — a lot of work. Breaking balls in the dirt that cut through a fraction of the three-dimensional zone have been called strikes. They look ridiculous. Hitters think they’re ridiculous. Even the pitchers themselves think they’re ridiculous. Before a wider institution of the automated system, Major League Baseball will need to redefine the strike zone, something that has been done before but always runs the risk of poison by unintended consequences.
See link for entire article
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/27947161/how-one-blown-strike-call-game-5-illustrates-mlb-need-robot-umps
Good article AC. I agree with you on Doc not seeing what is right in front of him. He has these charts and information and he stays with them and does not adjust as the game goes on. I was an assistant football coach on the defensive side. The head coach was a great coach Monday through Thursday. When the game started on Friday he was gone. We only had two coaches. I ended up calling all the offensive plays.
Baseball is a slow game. It gives you more time to think. Doc could never be a basketball coach when coaches at the end of a game have to make decisions in seconds.
I also remember the story that Snider called and argued with Alston to say that Drysdale was ready (they were roommates). Supposedly this really pissed off Alston. Duke went to the Mets the next year.
Also, we don’t remember bad decisions that work out. But they still may be bad choices.
We’ve had discussions here before about how much conversation there is during the game between Doc, Honey and Geren with regard to in-the-minute strategy. If he’s making these decisions on his own, the system needs to change. If he’s actually listening to his coaches and they’re giving bad advice, the coaches need to change. If the coaches are giving good advice which Doc is ignoring, AF needs to have a talk with him. I haven’t ever heard any information with regard to information flow between those three guys during games. If Prior is officially named pitching coach for 2020 and suddenly Doc’s bullpen management is better, I guess that will give us a good hint.
AC, I’m glad you referred to Lee as your “so called” friend. If my team wins and I break the other guy’s radio, I buy him a new one. If you’re still speaking to him, tell him I said so! 🙂
According to Ken Rosenthal, Gerrit Cole’s agent, the Devil Himself, will be seeking a $300 Million deal.
In a word: NO!
That means that Strasburg will be seeking $200 Million+.
Anther word: NOPE!
Money in baseball has destroyed baseball. Free agency has destroyed baseball. It was better when teams relied on drafting and trading and when players mostly stayed with their teams throughout their careers besides being traded.
If those money figures are true then the Dodgers better stock up on quality relievers and just let Urias/May/Gonsolin/Maeda be starters and let the bullpen bail them out if needed.
I wholeheartedly 100% agree. But it is never going to change. What needs to happen is that all of the teams need to tell Scott Boras to go pound sand. Unfortunately he would then cry collusion. I am getting ready for a long long long long offseason after 2021. Both the union and the owners are going to go at it when the current CBA expires. Both sides are devoid of common sense and appreciation for the fans…and I am not talking about the corporate fans.
Yes. It was better when there was no free market, when players had no ability to reach their earning potential.
I do not expect any of these FA to sign before February. Boras is going to hold out as long as he can and then have one team negotiate against themselves to get the dollars up. Why anyone would trust Scott Boras is beyond me. But if you want some of the best players in the game, you have go go through him. I do not believe that one player is worth that pain or that contract. What team is going to give Gerrit Cole or any other pitcher $300MM? That is just irresponsible.
What team is going to give Gerrit Cole $300 mil? No team. That’s just the Boras typical opening salvo. He’ll get a huge contract but it won’t start with a 3.
Absolutely agree with your comment about the long off season after 2021. I figure opening day will be somewhere around July 15th.
Dodgers are going to have to compete, one way or another. Or they could join another organization than MLB. Some oollege football programs have given up the sport, they could do that, though not likely with all the profits. I agree that this is an awful lot of money, but someone will pay it. Cole will be one of the big reasons why the Astros will win their second title in three years. Scherzer is one of the main reasons why the Nationals made it to the World Series.
There are other ways to go, but it’s very hard, though not impossible. If you won’t ever go after a top free agent, then you have to be very precise with the lesser ones you do sign, you have to carefully build a bullpen which can cover for the lack of more than one top starter. And you need a manager who can actually sometimes outmanage the opposition. I think of football coach Bill Snyder at Kansas State, who never got the personnel that the top teams in his league got, but still managed to find enough skill players, and coached them up. Even so, he never won a title, though they came close one year. If you get into the playoffs, and the other team has Cole and Verlander, or Scherzer and Strasburg, you are going to have real trouble winning that short series. We need another ace to go with Buehler. For the Dodgers to essentially absent themselves from this market because of cost, is not a good look. Peter O’Malley was given to complaining about the high costs, and how the other owners were independently wealthy, while he made his money only from baseball. This organization is now owned by a billionaire corporation Are the ownerships which will spend for the very top free agents, wealthier than the Dodgers, or make more money off baseball? If so, then maybe Guggenheim should sell it, and let one of those take over.
Good post AC, as always! What a great article by Plashke about Stan Williams and his recounting the events of that day. It was funny to read how Williams and Roseboro looked in the dugout for Alston, but they couldn’t find him because he was away smoking a cigarette. One of the biggest moments of the year, and Alston leaves the dugout to smoke a cigarette. Could you even imagine how much the blogosphere would have lit up if it was available back then?
All I see during the games on TV is Honeycut sitting or standing quite aways from Roberts most of the time. I see Geren sometimes talking to Roberts but not Honeycut so much. Would not the pitching coach know more about the availibility, capability and strength of the pitchers more than the manager?
Honey has shared before game starts and it has become part of the game plan. Bullpen Warmup performance doesn’t necessarily carry into the game.
True.
Mom, IMO basic info that you mentioned is talked about prior to the game but once Doc say warm up pitcher X and Honeycutt calls the pen, it’s up to the bullpen coach to monitor the pitcher….
Ok. Thank you peterj.
Jon Paul Morosi saying that AF will be going after Lindor and lists Ruiz, Gray and Downs as possible trade pieces. That could mean Seager could be traded or moved to third, more likely traded.
Both players are controlled through 2021 but Lindor earns almost twice what Seager does.
Just rumor for now, but it does make for interesting conversation.
Lindor is a switch hitter.
I hope Seager does not get traded. He could have a monster year. More like Seager moving to third and JT becoming a sub who can play third, Second and first.
Remove Gray and replace him with Stripling, that would be a doable trade.
Don’t have enough familiarity with Lindor to come to a definitive conclusion, but if the deal is as described it is intriguing. I have little doubt that Seager could transition over to 3B. Lindor would represent a defensive upgrade at short for the Dodgers. If such a deal was concluded and Seager remained in LA, there is no question in my mind that a left side of the infield of Seager and Lindor might well be the best in the game. And such a deal would preclude the need for the Dodgers to pursue Rendon. No doubt that Lindor’s power numbers would decline in the HR unfriendly confines of the NL West, which would be more than compensated for by the his defense. Still, I haven’t thought too deeply about this, so maybe I can think of reasons why I wouldn’t like it. But definitely something to give some serious thought. I might prefer Lindor/Seager over Seager/Rendon.
And although the price would cost us some of our best prospects, it may well be worth it. A talents like Lindor certainly don’t grow on trees. It’s a deal I would have to think about seriously.
How about Kyle Seager? Has he fully recovered from his surgery.? Then we could have 2 brothers , one at third, the other at short.
Dodger Mom, I was thinking the same, but the upon some study found he’s a LH hitter, something we don’t really need… I don’t know if Seattle would let him go anyhow!!! They love him up there…
I think Kyle has pretty much recovered, but his last couple of seasons have not been very good, especially when you consider his salary.
If a team winds up with both Kyle and Corey, it’s probably more likely to be the Mariners.
Rats.
If Lindor is only going to cost us good prospects what is there to stop us from going after Rendon also via free agency (no prospects). You will have a left side of the infield accounting for a minimum of 200 RBI’s and a possible 60-70 homers.
They aren’t going to go WAY over the luxury tax threshold. That’s what is stopping them.
I would try Lux, Ruiz, Pederson, Stripling and a couple of 15-25 level pitching prospects. I hate giving up Gray. The Dodgers would also have to take Kluber in that deal.
I know that it is popular to make the Dodgers into the Stepford Dodgers, all the same. The apparent concerns about Seager is that he swings at too many pitches, and that is not the Dodgers model. Thus he should be considered for a trade.
One of the Dodgers biggest problems over the last few years has been hitting with RISP and hitting with RISP w/2 outs. Apparently those who would like to see Lindor acquired and Seager traded have not taken a look at the Lindor vs. Seager metrics in these two categories.
Seager 2019 overall – .272/.335/.483/.817
Lindor 2019 Overall – .284/.335/.518/.854
Seager 2019 RISP – .313/.386/.603/.989 – 153 PA
Lindor 2019 RISP – .202/.295/.312/.607 – 133 PA
Seager 2019 RISP w/2 outs – .322/.375/.661/1.036 – 64 PA
Lindor 2019 RISP w/2 outs – .167/.262/.241/.503 – 61 PA
Seager Career RISP – .322/.404/.558/.962 – 480 PA
Lindor Career RISP – .265/.339/.423/.763 – 753 PA
Seager Career RISP w/2 outs – .326/.404/.565/.968 – 218 PA
Lindor Career RISP w/2 outs – .213/.304/.295/.598 – 303 PA
Is Lindor’s defense and power enough to trade a player who is a far superior hitter with RISP and with RISP w/2 outs? How do you ignore a SS who has a career OBP greater than .400 with RISP and with RISP w/2 outs, if that is the perceived offensive primary concern?
Finally contrary to what some want, Seager is not going to be platooned.
Seager Career vs RHP – .305/.375/.513/.889
Seager Career vs LHP – .272/.336/.445/781
Lindor Career vs RHP – .281/.339/.493/.832
Lindor Career vs LHP – .302/.364/.494/.857
Both players had twice as many PA facing RHP vs. LHP. Seager metrics show he would be more beneficial since he hits RHP better than does Lindor and they face twice as many RHP.
If Seager is willing to go to 3rd then Lindor makes sense. If he isn’t I do not see much of an upgrade (if any) of Lindor over Seager, and at more than twice the compensation.
Wow! Those numbers are staggering. I withdraw my trade proposal!
How about if we withdraw Lux and Ruiz. I’m willing to give up Joc and Strip.
Leave it to AC to bring a fascinating trade commentary to a grinding halt by showing us the stats.
I will take Seager over Lindor ..especially on the RSP stats. alone. Maybe he was swinging too much because he was anxious to prove he was fully recovered and could do the job at short and was pressing a wee bit. Still had all those doubles. Go Corey.
Corey has always been an aggressive hitter. It is his nature. It is old school, see it hit it. I am sure there are times that he should be more deliberate, but it is his core, just like throwing strikes on the first pitch is Kershaw’s core. It is who they are. Can they change? Also, do they really need to? Probably yes more for Kershaw than for Seager.
I do think Seager was pressing in the playoffs, as was Belli. They are both very young and hopefully next year will be a far better.
Spot on to you and DodgerBlueMom!
I would be happy to see Seager move to 3rd and Lindor at SS. Turner to 1st and Muncy at 2B. Lux platoon at 2B, SS and a little OF, until he proves he is too valuable at the plate to keep on the bench.
I like Pederson in the way I liked Puig. He brings some character to the team and makes it fun to watch. Is he frustrating at times? Yep. As such, a trade involving him, Stripling and a minor leaguer, I could stomach.
I’ve always hoped Pederson would evolve and be able to hit both ways, but I don’t believe it will ever happen.
My first real post here, and probably a little bland, I’m sure. But thought I would just dip my toe in to the water first. I’ve enjoyed this blog for over a year, and found the articles awesome and the comments thought provoking and informative. So thanks to everyone.
You’ll know you’re too bland if our host has never called you a moron. 🙂
AC-I withdraw my support for Lindor. Nobody knows what Friedman is thinking.
Very true on not knowing what AF is thinking. Anytime I hear a Ken Rosenthal or JP Morosi or any other journalist say they heard the Dodgers are looking at Player X, I call baloney. AF has never hinted at what moves the team was about to make. Every journalist was saying that it looked like DJLM was going to be a Dodger, and then he wasn’t. But I do not remember one word about AJ Pollock or Joe Kelly until they were traded. Maybe there was, I just do not remember one. Most people had Joc traded last year. Didn’t happen. Who said anything about the Farmer trade before it happened? AF is about as secretive and tight-lipped as they come. He will not negotiate in the press, which just p______ off Scott Boras.
STB. Ha ha , good one.