The greatest of all time. That question gets asked in sports so many times. And you ask any 10 fans who is the greatest, you will get 10 different answers. Younger fans usually base their answer on players they have seen. Older fans tend to stick to who was the best in the era they associate with. The stat geeks go to the stats, and then dissect everything and re-evaluate, then make what they consider a solid choice.
Perhaps the wisest choice is to judge players by the era they played in, since today’s game in no way looks the same as it did when the Brooklyn Atlantic’s played in the 1890’s. Perhaps the easiest way is to just go by the decade. Some players dominated for longer than others. I mean it is not logical to compare the Hall of Fame career of Sandy Koufax, to Steve Carlton or Randy Johnson.
Then you have the PED era, which skewed stats, and generally turned some fans off completely to the game. Think about it, the first man to hit 70 homers in a season, is not in the hall, neither is the only man to hit 60 three times. McGwire and Sosa. When 500 homers guaranteed you a spot in the Hall, that is not the case now. Then there is the conundrum that is Barry Bonds. Bonds was a great ballplayer. And he holds the record for the most HRs in a season and career. But even the suspicion of his PED use, has kept him out of the Hall, and tarnished his accomplishments.
PED’s are not the only factor. Gambling has kept two of the greatest to ever play the game out of Cooperstown, Shoeless Joe, and Charlie Hustle. Jackson and Rose both could have been first ballot Hall of Famers. The all-time hit leader, and a guy who averaged .356 in his career.
For the sake of argument, let us stick to the game from 1900 on. The NL formed in 1890. But then, pitchers still threw underhanded. So we will stick to the game from 1900 on.
From 1900to 1910 probably the best hitter in the majors was Honus Wagner. The Pirate great hit .352 over that time with 51 homers. Of course, this was the dead ball era, so HRs were rare. His AL counter part was Napoleon Lajoie. Lajoie hit .346 over that period. The best pitcher, hands down was Christy Mathewson of the Giants. 236-112 1.98 ERA. Cy Young in the AL was close, 230-146 2.12 ERA.
From 1910 to 1919, the Georgia Peach was baseball’s best hitter. The dead ball was still a factor, but Cobb hit .387 with just under 2000 hits in the decade. Closest hitter to him was Tris Speaker, who hit .344 in that decade. Walter Johnson led all pitchers with 265-143, and a minuscule ERA of 1.59 and 2,219 strikeouts. Grover Cleveland Alexander was a distant second with 208-100. Alexander lost almost the entire 1918 season while serving in the Army in WWI. During his service, he was gassed. It affected him the rest of his life as he suffered from epilepsy, and periods of dizziness.
In the 20’s, Babe Ruth came to prominence. He was the most prolific HR hitter of all time up to that point, but Ruth also hit for high average with a .355 average during the decade. He also hit 467 homers. But the best hitter? NL HOFer, Rogers Hornsby. Hornsby only hit .382 in the decade. He also clubbed .250 homers. Indeed, the power numbers were increasing. The best pitcher was Dodger great, Dazzy Vance, who won 147 games and lost 90. Dazzy posted a 3.10 ERA and struck out almost 1500.
Babe Ruth was fading in the 30’s and Ty Cobb retired, so Ruth’s Yankees teammate, along with Jimmy Foxx, ruled the hitters in the 30’s. Foxx had a .336 average and clubbed 415 homers. Gehrig hit .343 with 347 bombs. Lefty Grove ruled the mound with a 199-76 mark and a 2.91 ERA. There were other great hitters playing then, Hank Greenburg, Mel Ott, and Dizzy Dean was the other hurler who had a pretty good decade, 147-80 2.96 ERA.
The 40’s are hard to judge since many of the main players lost years to military service. The prime example being Ted Williams, who even though he lost three years in his prime, was probably the best pure hitter in the majors. Ted had a .356 avg and hit 234 homers. DiMaggio was not far behind at .346 and 146 bombs. DiMaggio also served in the military for three years. Big difference was, he played ball a lot of the time he was in, Williams was a Marine aviator, and trained pilots. In the Korean War, he would fly jets in combat missions. The best pitcher was Tiger great, Hal Newhauser. 170-118 2.84, then Bob Feller, 137-82 2.90 ERA. Johnny Mize was right behind Williams in homers with 217. Newhouser did not serve, but Feller, like Williams, lost three years in his prime to military service.
The 50’s. The 50’s were mostly about the Yankees-Dodgers annual World Series meetings with the Braves and Giants winning the 4 times the Dodgers did not and the Phillies once. And it was all about the three center fielders who played in New York, Mantle, Mays and Snider. Snider played the entire decade, while Mays and Mantle came up in 1951. Mays lost one year to military service, and Mantle tore up his knee, and was never really the same player he would have been had he not been injured. But it was a Cardinal star, Stan Musial who was the top hitter in baseball. He had a .330 average with 266 homers. Mantle hit .311 with 280 long balls. Mays, .317 with 250. But the home run king of the 50’s, Duke Snider, who crushed 326 to go with a .306 avg. Warren Spahn was the top pitcher with 202-131 mark. Averaging 20 wins a year. Mantle won the MVP award in back-to-back years, 56-57. He won the triple crown in 56. But, his teammate, Yogi Berra, won it three times, 51-54-55. Dukes Dodger teammate, Roy Campanella, won the award three times too, beating out Duke in 1955 when they finished 1-2.
The 60’s were filled with stars, and every player on the top 10 list is in the Hall. Best average in the decade went to Roberto Clemente. The Pirate great hit a solid .328 and added 177 homers too. Harmon Killebrew hit 393 homers in the 60’s, 18 more than runner-up, Hank Aaron. Koufax threw four no-hitters and won three Cy Young awards, and he had the lowest ERA in the decade, despite retiring after the 66 season. Juan Marichal had the most wins, 191 and Bob Gibson struck out 2,071 batters.
The 70’s. The 70’s brought us multi-purpose stadiums, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia. Knit uniforms with no belts, the rise of the Reds, and the A’s, and the return to prominence of the New York Yankees. It also brought free agency which allowed the players to get out of the old one-year at a time contracts. Stars could now take their services to the highest bidder. But came after the Curt Flood decision. The A’s would win 3 World Series in a row. Pittsburgh would have the We are family team in 79, and Clemente’s last games in 71. The Reds and Yankees won the other four series in the decade, two apiece. It was the Big Red Machine, the Swinging A’s, and the return of the Bronx Bombers led by Reggie Jackson.
There were afros and big moustaches as ballplayers once again started having facial hair. The best hitter for average during this time was Rod Carew of the Twins. A slap hitter with little power, Carew was a lot of fun to watch. He did nothing but hit. His average over the decade was .343. Willie Stargell of the Pirates led all hitters with 296 long balls. Bench and Jackson were the only other sluggers over 290. Tom Seaver was dominant in the NL, but you could make a case that the best pitcher was Jim Palmer. More wins, 186 to Seavers 178. A lower WHIP and ERA. But Gaylord Perry won more than Seaver too with 184. Pete Rose hit over .300 and had 2,045 hits on his way to 4,000.
Ahh, the 80’s. I probably went to Dodger Stadium more often in that era than any other. Missed most of the 60’s being in the Army. Took a while to get settled when I got out in 74. But I went to the ballpark as often as I could.
Best hitter hands down in the 80’s average wise was Wade Boggs. George Brett was not far behind. Boggs hit .352 and had over 1500 hits. Brett hit .311. Mike Schmidt was the he-bull in homers. Schmitty hit 313 bombs, only other player over 300, Dale Murphy. Schmidt also had 929 ribbies. But the RBI leader was Eddie Murray of the O’s with 996, Jack Morris led the pitchers with 162 wins, Nolan Ryan added 122 wins and struck out 2,167.
In the 90’s, a different kind of player began to emerge. More athletic guys who could run and field their positions very well. The player with the highest BA over the decade though was a catcher, Mike Piazza hit .328 in the 90’s. Most homers came off of the bat of Mark McGwire who hit 405. Most RBIs went to Ken Griffey Jr. Jr. racked up 1091 to beat out second place finisher, Barry Bonds, who had 1076. Frank Thomas, the Big Hurt, had the second highest BA at .320. Greg Maddux was the winningest pitcher of the era with 176 wins and 88 losses. He also led in ERA and WHIP. Tom Glavine was second with 164-87.
2000-2010. Hitters began dominating the game. Pitchers threw less and less complete games as the pitching specialists became more prominent. Unlike some of the decades prior, there were several players who averaged well above .300 for the decade. Pujols and Suzuki were above .330 at .334 and .333 respectively. Bonds and Vlad Guererro over .320. Rodriguez, and Jeter over .300. The best pitcher of the era was reliever, Mariano Rivera with his sparkling 2.07 ERA and 397 saves. Johnson, Halladay and Santana were the best starting pitchers. Suzuki had the most hits, 2,030, and Rodriguez the most RBIs, 1243.
2010-2023. Baseball faced some very tough challenges as the game kept evolving. Relief pitching is one of the more important aspects of the game. And the three true-outcome player becomes a huge part of the game. Strikeouts now have less importance and launch angle is taught by hitting coaches. And the big arms who can throw 97 plus become more prominent.
Since there has not been an update on the stats for the last decade, I had to dig a little deeper and find some of the stats I was looking for. Unlike some previous decades, there are numerous players who could garner the GOAT label.
Detroit’s Miguel Cabrera won the triple crown in 2012, first time that had been done since 1967 when Yastrzemski did it. It hasn’t been done in the NL since Ducky Medwick in 1937. He also won back-to-back MVP awards. Mike Trout of the Angels has been considered by many as the best in baseball for years. Trout just passed Joe DiMaggio on the all-time HR list. Throw in his great defense and usually batting for a high average, and he is a 5-tool player.
But Miggy and Nelson Cruz are the sluggers with both over 400 in their careers. Miggy went over 500 last season. You have players like Aaron Judge, who hit 62 homers last year setting a record for a Yankee. And now with the DH in both leagues, there are plenty of guys with mediocre glove skills who can hit a baseball on the rosters.
MLB listed their all-decade team and it looked something like this, Posey, C, Cabrera, 1B, Altuve, 2B, Beltre, 3B, Lindor, SS, Trout, Betts, and McCutcheon in the outfield. Cruz, DH, Kershaw, Verlander, Greinke, Scherzer and Sale as the starters. Kimbrel the closer, with Aroldis Chapman. Most of the players on the second team were pretty good too.
I am pretty sure most of our posters would have alternates for any of these guys. New talent has emerged in both leagues. Teams are tapping into the Asian and other markets. Shoei Ohtani is going to be one of the most targeted free agents ever. He can pitch, and he can hit. He has in some ways, been compared to Babe Ruth.
But the debate over who is the GOAT will continue. Personally, I think with the way the game has changed, it is an impossible debate to win. I can only judge players I have seen, and there have been many. I still think Willie Mays was the best all-around player I ever saw play. I saw Musial and Williams at the end of their careers. But Willie in his prime.
I saw Gibson and Koufax, Johnson and Kershaw. Gibson was the most intimidating. He just wanted to beat you. I saw the Bash Brothers, and Willie Stargell. Stargell is still the only player to hit a ball completely out of Dodger Stadium twice. You cannot judge greatness simply by the numbers anymore. If you did, you would be missing some really tremendous players.
There are a lot of what-ifs involved. Williams surely would have cleared the 600 mark in homers had he not missed 5 prime seasons. Feller and others who lost years to the war, including DiMaggio, would have had padded their stats. Joltin Joe would have easily had closer to 500 than where he ended up.
Some still consider Babe the GOAT based on his high BA, number of homers and RBIs, and his pitching prowess early in his career. He was not the greatest hitter. But he was perhaps the most recognizable star MLB ever had. And he most likely single handedly saved the game after the Black Sox scandal. But it is up to fans to make their own choices.
I often see posters saying this player or that one there, belong in the Hall of Fame. The Hall has opened it’s doors to some iffy choices over the years. Players are now being elected when their stats just do not add up to prior stars. The all-time hit leader, Pete Rose, and the homer leader, Barry Bonds, are not in. Neither is the only player to hit 60 or more home runs three times, Sammy Sosa. The PED era skewed some players stats, and they are paying the price for that. Eventually Bonds will probably get in. But Rose will most likely, like Shoeless Joe before him, never make it.
Sunday scores
Oklahoma City 7, Reno 4
Tulsa 6, Wichita 5 (10 innings)
Beloit 6, Great Lakes 0
Inland Empire 8, Rancho Cucamonga 1
Monday schedule
8 a.m. PT: Dodgers Bautista vs. Dodgers Mega
Opening day for the Dominican Summer League. The two Dodgers teams — named for senior advisor Antonio Bautista and Latin America defensive coordinator Pedro Mega — will play each other on Monday. The league itself announced the 2023 season is dedicated to Pablo Peguero, a longtime Dodgers and Giants scout and Dominican Republic director who while with the Dodgers signed Adrián Beltré and Raúl Mondesí, among others.
6 p.m.: Dodgers vs. Giants
The Arizona Complex League starts things off, with the Dodgers opening up their schedule at Camelback Ranch. Games are played at each team’s spring training facilities.
MLB has hired Albert Pujols, aka Tio Albert, as a special assistant to MLB commissioner, Rob Manfred. Pujols will concentrate on player relations in his native country, the Dominican Republic.
Bobby Miller looks like the real deal. That was a great performance yesterday on national TV vs a very , very good Yankee lineup (even without Judge).
Spinning a one hitter over 6 scoreless innings was something to see.
He not only has the triple digit fastball with movement but his secondary pitches look very good too. Yesterday it was the slider but the change and the curve are there too if he needs them.
If he keeps this up the Dodgers have their next ace.
Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I totally agree with that assessment. And he did not look bothered by the Yanks at all.
Was Wade Boggs a better hitter than Tony Gwynn?
I don’t know. Just asking.
I would say they were pretty close, both had over 3000 hits, neither was a power hitter, Boggs had 118 career bombs, Gwynn 135. Gwynn’s career BA is 10 points higher than Boggs. He also has more RBI’s. I would take Gwynn over Boggs simply because I saw him play more, and he was a huge thorn in the Dodgers side. Gwynn hit over .300 in six playoff series, Boggs hit .273 in 9 series. But Boggs got a ring with the Yankees in 96. Gwynn never won a ring.
Close. Boggs had a good glove at third. He was crazy consistent but as noted, he wasn’t a true Big Game Stud. Kind of a prick to fans/ media. Left Sox for Yankees and the Boston fan dislike was intense for a few seasons – per normal for times.
He struck me as best pure hitter in AL for 10-12 years. Machine like.
Boggs actually has a higher career WAR than Gwynn. Bonds is 4th all time, bloated by his years on PED’s.
Gwynn won five Gold Gloves.
They were close as hitters–I’d give Tony a slight edge–but Tony was clearly the better player. Not sure that Boggs possess the kind of leadership skills that Gwynn had.
BTW, a journalist pal of mine first met Tony when was the star point guard for San Diego State. Had no idea that he played baseball. Mike later covered Tony’s early years with the Padres, and they became good friends.. Pretty cool that Gwynn returned to his alma mater to coach the baseball team.
Thor’s last stand this week?
Hi Matt – I doubt it while there are so many question marks surrounding the rotation.
I guess his rope gets shorter if he hasn’t improved by the time the cavalry begins to appear. All Star break I think.
Personally I would hang onto Julio for a couple of weeks to make sure his Hammy is fully recovered. No rush. We are gonna need him at the sharp end of the season and another and more severe injury would really derail things.
Enjoying Miller Time.
Miller time is great. Going to the game Fathers day, wouldnt be upset if he started, but doesnt look like it.
Mariano Duncan possibly should be Mariano Rivera? I’m not sure Duncan could have thrown over 80 lol
WHoopsie! Fixed it.
Only saw mays in his latter years. But for me Griffey Jr. Was as good as it gets! No steroids ( no rumors) with healthy knees his numbers would be unparalleled. Wish bonds would have been all natural and then we could debate he and Griffey. Still believe Tony Gwynn is best hitter I saw. Probably could’ve hit 225 homers if he chose to, but just loved hitting line drives more! Mike trout will be in lots of conversations in next few years, but he seems to be slowing aa bit. Don’t get me wrong, would love to have him in a dodger uniform for next 3-4 years! Unless walker and may come walking into that dugout soon, how can Bobby Miller not stay in that rotation? Mark,you think trace ever comes back? I don’t
I agree injuries really curtailed Jr.s career. He would have probably held the career HR title if not for that. He was also one of the best defensive outfielders I have ever seen. Buehler will not be activated before September, and doubtful he would return to the starting rotation before next year, but he could really be a weapon out of the pen. May on the other hand might be back by the All-Star break. But with Thor as iffy as he is, Miller stays in the rotation for the duration. Carew was a great hitter too. Bonds, Clemens and the rest of those guys accused of PED use, screwed themselves. Bonds was a great power hitter, but he was not a high average guy. His highest BA’s came after he started using.
It depends somewhat on Jonny D and how he does.
It also depends upon if James Outman can get it together.
So may answer is a “definite maybe!”
I will be shocked if Thor pitches Wednesday…
Prepare to be shocked, he is still scheduled.
He will pitch Wednesday. After that who knows….
I would like to see him pitch all 9 innings every time he is on the mound. It doesn’t matter what the score is….just make this a day of rest for our BP.
Disclaimer: if we are winning or close after 6 innings, we could entertain replacing him.
If he is pissed for us not taking him out, remind him how much money he is making. If he still isn’t happy, he can always tear up his contract.
Spot on comment!!!
If they skip Thor on Wednesday everyone will be on Regular Rest. Cincinnati would be a horrible place to let him pitch.
I know Doc said he is going to start – I just don’t always believe him.
Braves Claim LA Utility Man Luke Williams on Waivers
The Atlanta Braves have claimed former Dodgers utility man Luke Williams on waivers. The 26-year-old appeared in four games with the Dodgers this season, going 1-for-10 with three strikeouts.This move somewhat comes out of nowhere, as there was no indication from the Dodgers that they were trying to move Williams. However, clearly they tried to get him off the 40-man roster by pushing him through waivers, but the Braves were having none of it.Now, Williams heads to Atlanta, and the Dodgers have an open spot on the 40-man roster.It was unlikely that Williams was going to be back with the Dodgers at any point this season, unless there was a major rash of injuries. So while it’s a bummer to lose him for nothing, the open spot on the 40-man roster could be pretty valuable down the road.
The Dodgers are nearing the returns of multiple guys from the 60-day injured list in the coming weeks and months, so at some point they would have had to clear room on the 40-man roster. The guy closest to a return could be RHP Alex Reyes, who told DodgersNation.com at spring training that he was targeting a June or July return. Hopefully we get an update from Dave Roberts on Reyes soon, but maybe he could fill that spot if he’s, in fact, close to a return.
If not, the Dodgers will likely be strategic in how they fill that spot. But either way, it’s never a bad thing when you have an open 40-man spot, especially replacing someone who likely wasn’t going to be playing with the team again this season.
Williams was actually in the lineup at OKC last night.
I suspect that Williams had a June 5th Opt Out in his contract and the Dodgers just honored it. He was just depth, but Hernandez is a better option.
Yankees manager Aaron Boone on Bobby Miller today (h/t Yankee’s beat reporter Chris Kirschner
): “He was firing today. He was obviously tough on us. I mean, that’s a big time arm. I’ve heard about him now for a little while and that arm came as advertised.”
RIP, Roger Craig.
Best of luck, Luke Williams… um, except when playing against the Dodgers.
Bobby Miller is the best news for the Dodgers lately. There is chatter that the Dodgers don’t need to trade for an SP, but I think that may place too much faith in the system and the ability of guys like Kershaw, Urias and Gonsolin to stay healthy. The rotation just seems perpetually fragile.
Bieber may be on the market. Perhaps Burnes. Perhaps Giolito, Lynn and even Cease. As for RPs, Chapman will certainly be dealt, and maybe Bednar and others.
I wonder if the Dodgers would take on Dick Mountain. He’s in the twilight, obviously, but canny and effective.
Certainly he’d have been a better signing than Syndergaard.
Lynn has been absolutely horrific. He’s making Thor look like Cy Young, so unless he improves dramatically, we absolutely don’t want/need him.
There are going to be relatively few good starters available compared to the teams who will be looking to get one. Law of supply and demand says it’s definitely going to be a sellers market and AF normally doesn’t participate in those, but you never know.
I’d love to get Bednar, but the Pirates are within striking distance of a playoff spot so there isn’t much logical reason for them to trade their closer. That coupled with the fact that he’s controllable through 2026 makes it highly unlikely that he’ll be going anywhere.
A big “yes” on Rich Hill. Watching him pitch is a real treat and we could always use another fierce competitor, even if out of the bullpen.
Who is the G.D.O.A.T.?
In the greater scheme of things, that would be Jackie, no doubt. And there’s also a reason that Sandy has a statue too.
Jackie has a statue because he was a pioneer, he was a great player, but he certainly is not the greatest Dodger of all time, especially statistic wise. Koufax was the best I saw. The one pitcher I would want on the mound in game 7 of a World Series, more than Kershaw. Big D would be my second choice. Best hitter ever was probably Babe Herman. But their first real superstar was Zack Wheat. And he has the stats to prove it. They have never had a player the caliber of Bonds or Mays. They have had some very good players, and a few Hall of Famers. None of them are high atop MLB’s all-time leaders. They have no one who ever hit more that 400 homers. No Dodger has ever hit 50. They haven’t had a true batting champ since Tommy Davis in 1963. Trea Turner does not count in 21 because he spent most of the year in DC. Koufax would be my choice. Jackie had little to do with the only championship they won in Brooklyn. Koufax was part of 4 title teams and had a major hand in 2 of the series win. IN 59 he lost his only start 1-0.
Like many others, Jackie was denied a full career in the majors.
He arrived as a 28-year-old rookie. We can only speculate what his career stats would have been if he had another 5, 6, 7 seasons of production. So it seems unfair to cast shade on Jackie’s career stats–which were actually pretty great, all considered.
Ironically, I think his stature as a pioneer overshadowed his greatness as a player, the point made here:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33731976/why-jackie-robinson-was-even-better-baseball-player-realize
We all know that military service stunted the stats Williams, DiMaggio, Feller and others. Mays too. Jackie was a veteran too–but that wasn’t hurt his stats.
Thought experiment: If you ask, “Who was the best second baseman after WWII?” Or, “After Jackie Robinson integrated the MLB?”, what would be the answer? Off the top of my head I might nominate two-time MVP Joe Morgan. Who else? But if you were building a team, would you pick Jackie or Joe?
The stats of HOF second basemen are easy to Google–and Jackie looks pretty damn impressive.
He had 999 fewer hits than Morgan, but his career BA was .311 to Joe’s .277, and Jackies OBP was .410 (!) to Joe’s excellent .395. His slugging percentage was also higher.
It’s really easy to argue that Jackie was the best second baseman after integration. For all-time honors, Rogers Hornsby is tough to beat–but then he faced weaker competition due to segregation. It was a different era.
It’s hard to compare pitchers to position players. To my mind, Sandy was the greatest pitcher, bar none, before injuries cut short his career. The occasional detractor might stupidly point to his counting stats. He only won 165 games after all.
But four of those wins were no-hitters.
Sandy was so great that we tend to ignore the counting stats. He was just incredibly dominant for a few years.