Well, it is no battle. That just sounded intimidating. So, yesterday, I wanted to see what fans thought about the Kershaw – Koufax debate… and it pretty much went the way I believed. However, yesterday I deliberately withheld some evidence that may or may not change your minds. This evidence will cause you to re-assess how you might look at things. So, here is the evidence:
- When Sandy Koufax pitched, the mound was 15.” When Clayton Kershaw pitched, it had been lowered to 10″
- In the 2000’s analytics, sabermetrics, and film study of pitchers became an “industry” and today there are many computerized devices to make in-game adjustments that never existed in the past.
- Sandy Koufax pitched 57 innings in the playoffs. Clayton Kershaw has amassed 189 postseason innings.
You may say “so what – it was a different time?” Yes, it was, so let’s analyze each piece of evidence.
Fifteen Inch Mound vs. Ten-Inch Mound
Sandy Koufax never pitched on a 10″ mound and Clayton Kershaw has never pitched on a 15″ mound, so we can never say for sure what difference that makes, but one only has to look at “why” the mound was lowered to gather an understanding that a 15″ mound was a boon to pitchers. Back in 1969, the height of the pitcher’s mound was lowered from 15″ down to 10″ in an attempt by major league baseball to level the playing ground between the era’s dominant pitching and the effect they were having on batters. Hitters were at the all-time low in batting average in 1968 (.237).
Peter Schiller, wrote about this back in 2009 and after studying and researching the subject wrote this:
“We found that compared to flat ground, pitchers using a 10-inch mound experience an increase in superior shear and adduction torque in the shoulder – meaning there’s a greater amount of stress on the joint surface and surrounding structures. That greater stress may result in injury to the shoulder including tearing of the rotator cuff or labrum which may result in surgery and long-term rehabilitation. It also can make it difficult for the athlete to replicate the same throw and develop a consistent strike,” Dr. Raasch says.
Many other experts, as well as pitchers, have been vocal about this, but MLB sees no reason to change the mound height. Nolan Ryan, who threw 100 MPH into his 40s attributes throwing off flat ground in practice to his longevity, while others suggest that a 15″ mound reduces stress on the arm and shoulder. What does that all mean? It could mean that a 15″ mound gave the pitcher a bigger advantage over the hitter and also reduced the chance of injury. This could be at the core of why no one seems to pitch over 200 innings anymore. So, in conclusion, comparing two pitchers that pitched from two different mound heights is not fair. (1) The 15″ mound gave Koufax an advantage that Kershaw did not have; and (2) Kershaw’s pitching from a lower mound could have impacted his arm health as well as the number of innings pitched.
Pitching Analysis and Study of Pitchers
At any given time, you see hitters studying i-Pads and other devices, making in-game adjustments to what pitchers are doing. Of course, it works both ways, but the hitters are much more adept at using in-game adjustments than pitchers can be. I believe that Sandy Koufax would have dominated in any era, like Clayton Kershaw, but the electronics age would have had a major impact. How much? We simply cannot say.
More Innings = More Exposure
Sandy pitched 57 innings in the playoffs with a 0.95 ERA – that is amazing! Clayton pitched 189 innings in the playoffs with an ERA of almost 4 runs higher. Remember, Clayton did not have the advantage of a higher mound, and Sandy did not have the disadvantage of all the electronic analysis and sabermetric analysis that Clayton did. Also, remember that Koufax did not have to deal with the Cheating Asstericks in the World Series. So there is that!
More exposure with triple the playoff innings pitched plus a lower mound height, plus the pitching analysis explosion had a profound effect on Clayton. How much, we simply cannot tell, but I can tell you this: If you have one game to win and both pitchers were on a 10″ mound, both pitchers had all the sabermetrics and analytic analysis in place, I do not believe the disparity would have been as great. OK, if you pick the pitcher you want, then I get to pick the year in which he pitched as I dial in my time machine.
Conclusion
We will never know and we can never know who was the best, but our opinions are our opinions. I just wanted to point out some important factors that make the decision a little more complex than we might have believed. It was a different age – pitchers dominated because of the 15″ mound and they were able to go 200 to over 300 innings a year. That plays a huge role. The good ole’ days were always good, but not necessarily better! This debate will continue until we are all long gone.
Dodger Game Notes
- The Catman do and he did! Will he be an All-Star?
- Daniel Hudson made it interesting but he got his 3rd save – he has taken up where Blake Treinen left off.
- Nice to see JT heat up with 4-4.
- Mookie is playing like he wants the MVP and he is healthy and happy – that is so contagious to his teammates.
- Justin Bruihl quietly goes about his business.
- Gavin Lux is at .271 – I am feeling cautiously confident about Gavin. He makes a few mistakes… and it appears he learns from them. He is appearing to be a “BALLPLAYER!”
- It’s the Tyler Anderson Show today, but Zach Davies always has something to say.
- Three games ahead of the Padres and 7.5 ahead of the Dwarfs! How sweet it is!
- The Dodgers are inches from passing the Yankees for the best record in baseball, but evidently, some fans want to ONLY post negative stuff!
Dodger Minor League Notes
- OKLAHOMA CITY DODGERS
- Caleb Ferguson pitched to one batter and struck him out to end the inning.
- Yadier Alvarez went 2 innings, allowed 1 hit, walked 0, and struck out 4. He is 2-0.
- Mark Washington in his first AAA game pitched a clean inning with1 K.
- TULSA DRILLERS
- Kody Hoese was 3-5 with 2 RBI and has his BA up to .290.
- Boby Miller went 6 innings, allowing 2 hits and 2 runs while striking out 5, but most importantly, he did not walk a single batter. He threw 83 pitches – 57 for strikes.
- GREAT LAKES LOONS
- Vivas, Leonard, Ramos, and January all had 2 hits for the Loons
- RANCHO CUCAMONGA QUAKES
- Diego Cartaya hit his 9th HR, a 3-run shot, as he went 2-4 with 4 RBI.
Hoese has really risen from the dead! Great to see. Don’t see much hope for Vogel and Kendall tho
I think Vogel and Kendall are the same player.
Hoese is hitting much better, but the power is not there. Hopefully, that will come…
Vogel and Kendall may very well be the same player, but Vogel is almost 6 years younger with far less experience.
Kendall’s turning things around would be an absolute miracle. Vogel turning it around is still a very slight possibility.
And if there was one must win game and both Koufax and Kersh in their healthy prime? As much as I love Kersh, I’d have to go with Sandy! If only both could have pitched healthy into their mid thirties!
Probably everyone would, but you at least have to consider some of the other evidence.
The strike zone was also bigger back then.
I still have Sandy, but comparing generations, which has always been done, is not really practical. Kershaw pitching in the 60’s would have put up Koufax numbers but would he have lasted with that schedule? Not likely. He’s broken down with a considerably lighter work load.
That’s a very good point which I had forgotten about. The bigger strike zone was a thing.
I doubt anyone will change their opinions, but at least we can consider the totality of the circumstances.
I stand with Tony LaRussa:
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/white-sox-tony-la-russa-giants-gabe-kapler-national-anthem-protest-not-appropriate
Controversial Opinion Alert:
I still think God Bless America should be the national anthem.
OK
Agree.
Or America the Beautiful. The current one still makes top three.
Beautiful song, actually.
The Star Spangled Banner is an old English drinking song. It’s hard to sing.
I don’t like change, though.
If we were to make that change I’d prefer the following song, as it’s one of my personal favorites. It is sublime and poignant, with simple and enduring message that illustrates the meaning of this country.
https://youtu.be/5uPoDNEn3I0
HAHA! Glad I had mute on, wife is reading next to me!
Embrace change!
It’s usually for the better.
Yadier Alvarez is coming on just nicely at AAA.
Another enocuraging outing. He still got that unbelievable heater .
would be one great story if could make it all the way up to the Show after all.
Bobby Miller looked terrific yesterday. If he is able to eliminate the wildness and the BBs he will be at LA as soon as this year. The stuff is THAT good!
Surprised it anybody else that it was Hudson to close out the game instead of Kimbrel ?
I know Kimbrel threw the day before and gave up two runs but phssically I thought he was good to go.
Good win but the Dodgers should be a little more careful on the bases.
Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Dodgers choose Yadier Alvarez over Yoán Moncada.
Stuff like that happens.
Dodgers left Clemente unprotected in the rule V draft.
At least Alvarez has still a shot to help us. Still only 25 years old.
Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!
Dodger Stadium had much larger space between the foul line and the seats allowing more foul popups to be caught when Sandy pitched. I have no idea how the Colosseum affected runs.
I suppose there are two questions that should be asked between K and K. Would you want Kershaw for 10 years or Koufax for 5 years and the other would be who would you want on the mound in a World Series.
One “oh shit” often wipes out 10 “at a boys”. That applies to the Kershaw Koufax debate and this sentence from the top: “The Dodgers are inches from passing the Yankees for the best record in baseball, but evidently, some fans want to ONLY post negative stuff!” Can we please stop beating a dead horse.
That horse is still breathing. It will jump back up. Watch and see!
I have a few predictions:
1. Clayton will recover from his back issues, return and have another good stretch before getting injured again. Hopefully he recovers by the playoffs. He will win 8-11 games.
2. Tony Gonsolin, Julio Urias, and Walker Buehler will all win 14-17 games.
3. Bobby Miller will make his debut this year as will Landon Knack.
4. Danny Duffy will save some games this year.
5. Heaney and Anderson will combine to win 20 games.
Can’t take too much issue with any of these. I would think, though, that Kershaw would be eased along and workload managed so that he is somewhat peaking and healthy for the playoff, even if it means he isn’t worked much during Jily/August. In retrospect it’s rather weird that he pitched so many innings during Spring Training.
Duffy getting a three-inning save?!?!????
Koufax’s ERA at the coliseum was 4.33. Ebbets Field 4.04 Dodger Stadium 1.37. His 5 seasons at Dodger Stadium were in his prime years. The coliseum was an aberration of a ballpark with wacko dimensions. The only relatively modern stadiums he ever pitched in were the Astrodome where he was 4-0, and Shea Stadium where he went 3-2. All the other ballparks had been around for ages except the Braves park in Milwaukee and were all of different dimensions. But I still take Koufax in a big game over Kershaw for the simple reason that in the two biggest games of his career, he delivered wins that gave the Dodgers the Championship. Kershaw was on the bench in the pen when the Dodgers won in 2020. Kersh is a very good, and most likely a Hall of Fame pitcher. But he was never as dominant as Koufax night after night. 4 no hitters, one a perfect game, struck out 18 twice. And on any given night could just be something special.
My youngest daughter named her first boy after my favorite player, Sanford Koufax Cunningham. Guess you know who I would pick.
You can’t compare, it’s crazy, they were different times, different rules, before there was no shift, no setup, pitchers threw 100 pitches and more innings without a problem, today they only ask you to throw 5, maybe 6 innings and that’s it. It would be like comparing Babe Ruth to Othani. If you take a time machine and take Barry Bonds to the past, he would have a thousand home runs, but bring the Babe back to this time and I doubt he would have been the kind of hitter he was…
Sandy Koufax was the best and trying to compare him would be disrespectful, the same would be comparing Kershaw, each one has been the best and both belongs and will be in the hall of fame!
AMEN!
The Bambino would of been great in any era. If I remember correctly there’s been less players who had stolen home plate 10 times in their careers than perfect games pitched, either way he was far better than looks would say. there wasn’t the kind of pay on standards back then so the babe played harder outside of baseball….oh yeah, babe was one of those who stole home 10 times.
These comparisons are silly. There is no comparison.
Modern players are superior to previous era players by an order of magnitude. Sandy’s vaunted fastball wouldn’t even break 90 on a radar gun.
If Sandy played today he’d be beaten like a rented mule. He wouldn’t rise above the rookie league.
Period
The end.
Facts.
Not fake news.
Tee hee
What ever you are smoking quit. It has made you delusional .
4:10 PM ET
Dodgers (32-14)
Diamondbacks (23-25)
SP Tyler Anderson L
5-0 3.30 ERA 43.2IP 42K
Confirmed Lineup
RF Mookie Betts R
1B F. Freeman L
SS Trea Turner R
DH Will Smith R
3B Edwin Rios L
CF Chris Taylor R
LF Kevin Pillar R
2B Gavin Lux L
C A. Barnes R
In Domed Stadium
Roof open or closed?
It will be 95 at game time, so I’ll assume it’s closed.
Day off for Bellinger, and when for Freeman? A day off every now and then never hurt anyone.
* Mark, I really enjoyed your comments on some of the differences between Koufax’s time and CK, especially the mound height. I have never heard the theory that a 15” mound reduces stress and may be easier on the arm than the 10 inch mound. I’ve sort of always adhered to the theory that higher was harder on the arm.
Like Nolan Ryan, my teams threw a lot but “pitched” less. That is we threw a lot of “flat ground”. Mechanics work, grips changes, and all the finesse work was done to a catcher just like a bullpen, except on flat ground. Incline work was more limited and done with a purpose to every pitch and depended on how a guy was feeling.
Being less stressful at 15” versus 10” was never something I thought about. But the stats provided are interesting in terms of longevity and work loads. Good stuff Mark. Thanks.
* So are we looking at a solution to the Muncy hitting woes? I see Max went on the IL. During his time on the IL and during any possible rehab assignments, the Dodgers buy some time to play Rios more and get a look at Pillar. Max gets some verbal support but the bottom line is putting the best guys on the field. Could Muncy get “Wally Pipped?
* I forgot to mention it the other day but does Gavin Lux play infield without wearing a cup? I personally can’t imagine doing that and in my day all the infielders wore them. (and the teams I coached) And the pitchers made sure by giving “cup checks”. They would walk around during BP with a sawed off bat handle and do a little investigative “love tap”. If a guy was bent over in pain he was subject to fine as well. Not to be too graphic but you got used to wearing a cup (like getting used to a bike seat) and learned all the techniques with various layers of undergarments, along with Cruex and bikers lube. But there were days when you put that baby on and thought “there’s no way I can do this today”. But you did.
Try wearing a cup in hot weather every single day for weeks on end and you learn all the techniques. But not wearing a cup was not an options.
I guess alot has changed. Players now have the freedom to not wear one, I guess, and it’s not as likely for some pitcher to walk around during BP and rap Frankie Lindor, and his 30 million a year salary, in the nuts.
Phil –
Great insights! I always read your comments because I learn so much from you; even though I played college and semi-pro ball in the 1960s. Yet I am still learning the game and its nuances from people like you and others on LADT which is why I read it everyday. Glad you are back commenting and wish you a successful recovery from your recent surgery….
Thanks Tom1946. My knee gets a little better every day. Thanks for your well wishes.
I wore a cup for 46 years. Wouldn’t step out there without one. But, the fields we all played on were nothing like Major League fields. Bad hops are extremely rare at that level. Bad hops were a daily occurrence on all the fields I played on.
Anyone who doesn’t wear a cup is nuts!
All depends who was doing the checking on Frankie, I’m guessing.
If it’s Scherzer, nobody is going to tell him not to do it. Probably not even Frankie.
Quick: Who is the greatest pitcher of all-time?
Koufax is always on the shortlist, for that amazing stretch that has no equal.
Sorry, but Kersh is not on that list. And if not for an unfortunate trade, he’d probably rank third on the LAD list after Pedro. We homers like to say that he’d the best of his generation. Not so sure about that. What about Verlander and Scherzer?
The idea that we can’t compare greats of the past to greats of today is just silly. We compare presidents, don’t we? So you compare their dominance in their day and age. We are right to compare Ohtani and Ruth. If a human with Ruth’s exact genetic makeup was raised in Ohtani’s time, he’d benefit from better diet and conditioning and coaching, Hey, how about Josh Gibson and Paige. How good would Jackie Robinson’s numbers be if he came up with the barriers he faced. It’s both nature and nuture–including history.
And if some of these guys played today, they’d have also faced the Blue Jay shift I witnessed last night against Ohtani and Trout–four outfielders, none shallow.
In New York they must hate the Dodgers… Fucking review!
So, I guess the consensus is that even though the mound was much higher (advantage pitcher) and the strike zone was much bigger (advantage pitcher) and analytics and i-Pads were not a thing (advantage hitter), Sandy Koufax was the greatest because that is what we believe.
OK, I get it!
Nobody pitches 300+ innings anymore just because the higher mound and bigger strike zone has nothing to do with it… because we don’t to change our minds.
I personally think that Koufax would have been great in 2015 and that Kershaw would have been great in 1963. However, the fact that no one pitches four no-hitters and 300+ inning should not be lost on us. Each pitcher played under the current rules. We will never know the outcome of anything else!
Whenever this topic comes up, I like to point out that Koufax didn’t come close to winning 200 games. Without bothering to look it up, I think the total was 168.
And four of those were no-hitters, including one perfect game. Unparalleled.
His career ended prematurely because of a painful injury which quite possibly could have been corrected by surgical procedures that were developed later. How great would his career stats have numbers have been? Impossible to know.
These guys are athletes, and they would easily adjust to the height of the mound. Which ace suddenly turned into a bad pitcher when the mound was lowered? Did it derail any careers?
165. Surgery would not have helped Sandy. He quit because of the degenerative type of arthritis he had in his left elbow. He also quit because his doctor told him that if he kept pitching there was a very good chance he would lose the use of his left arm. He chose to retire against the Dodgers wishes and on his own terms. Each player is a product of his own era. Koufax domintated his for six seasons. To say that Babe Ruth could not play todays game is moronic. Saying Barry Bonds would hit 1000 homers is also moronic. Barry might never have reached 700 had it not been for PED help, and don’t give me that bull that he never failed a test. Tests then were not given as often as they are now and they were far less reliable, No one will ever know how they would do.
I wish hit by pitch calls were reviewable. That ball from Kimbrel hit the ground, not the batter’s foot. Glad the only thing the call hurt was Kimbrel’s ERA.
Amazing pitching today by our boys.
Careful Catman. Anderson is coming for your Ace crown!
The air smells better when you have the best record in baseball and if you ain’t the lead dog, the view never changes.
LOL So, you’d rather look at the road ahead than a dogs butt? Good call.