For a run of six seasons from 2011 until 2016, Madison Bumgarner was a “horse” pitching over 200 innings each year. It culminated in 2016 when he was a key cog in winning the Giants third World Series in six years. In that 2016 season, MadBum pitched 226.2 innings during the regular season and an additional 14 innings in the postseason. When MadBum started that great run he was 21 years old and in 2016 he was 26 years. He has never been the same since.
Clayton Kershaw had a run about the same time where he missed 200 innings by 2 innings once or he would have had six consecutive seasons of 200 plus innings as well. Clayton has almost another full season stuffed into his career with 189 innings pitched during the playoffs. Clayton was also in his twenties when he did that.
Max Scherzer is a little different cat. He also had a run of six straight seasons with 200+ innings pitched, but he started later. Those six seasons were between the age of 28 and 33. Max has also pitched 128 innings in the postseason. Surprisingly, MadBum has just 102 innings pitched in the postseason.
We are discussing this because it appears that 37-years-old Max Scherzer is not going to be able to make his scheduled start today, due to continued “arm soreness” and of course, true to form, someone has to be blamed and that person is Dave Roberts. One fan commented: “Now they ruined Max Scherzer doing the same nonsense [as they did with Urias].”
For the record, I was not in favor of using Urias in relief, but I thought Scherzer coming in and closing out the game was fine… even necessary. Pitchers throw side sessions of 30 to 40 pitches between starts, and both Scherzer and Urias skipped their side sessions (with their blessing at managements’ behest) and respectively threw 13 and 14 pitches in a game. If 13 pitches “ruined” Max Scherzer then his arm is holding on by a thread and that in itself is reason enough not to sign him this offseason.
I believe that anything a pitcher does has an “effect” on their pitching, but I do not believe that 13 or 14 pitches in a game, while not throwing a side session can have a major impact on their performance. If anything, I believe it would be more mental than physical. But, many fans want to “blame” someone and Dave Roberts is their favorite. The fact of the matter is that Max Scherzer has been struggling his past several starts, On September 23rd, he went 5 innings and allowed 6 hits and 5 runs, and then six days later pitched 5.1 innings allowing 11 hits and 6 runs. In the playoffs, he has appeared to be solid at times, but not dominant. He hasn’t looked like Mad Max of old, except maybe during his 13 pitch relief stint.
Max Scherzer is 37 years old. He will be 38 next season. The odds are he will need Tommy John Surgery much like Justin Verlander did a couple of years ago and will miss a large part of two seasons. Pitchers in their mid to late thirties just start breaking down, which is why I would not re-sign Max Scherzer after this season unless it is on a sweet one or two-year deal. No Way. No How!
But, here we are today. If Scherzer can’t go, and it doesn’t appear he can, what do you do? Justin Bruihl also has a sore arm, so I would guess that Mitch White or Andre Jackson would get the call unless they want another LH which could be V-Gon, but I have no idea of his status and health. The Dodgers could rely on another “broken-down” mid-30’s pitcher, David Price to be an “opener” and see how many innings he can go – two would be amazing, three would be miraculous! However, if Striker Buehler is up to it, he should start today, because if you don’t win today, there is no tomorrow. Striker can cement his legend as a “big game pitcher” today. Let him go as far as he can… hopefully seven or eight innings and save the pen for tomorrow. Maybe Max can pitch 2 or 3 innings on Sunday. Maybe Julio as well.
Dodgerpatch articulated the winning formula for the Dodgers to win the NLCS:
In my opinion, it is absolutely essential that the Dodgers score more runs than the Braves if they have any hopes of winning. … but this is just my opinion.
Brilliant! That captures all the nuance. Jayne Cobb also summed up very succinctly how I also feel:
AF and Roberts had a plan for the playoffs. And it’s not the same plan as during the season. They are doing things they would never do during the regular season. As they should. They know what they are doing. That doesn’t mean it always works. Had it not been for that low-pressure system off the coast of CA, Gavin Lux would have walked off that game against the Giants. All the effort, planning, training, strategizing, adjusting and executing go to shit with a single gust of wind. Over 162 games, wind is not an issue. But in one, it determines the outcome. That’s the playoffs. Roberts is executing the plan. It’s the fans who are overanalyzing everything. This is baseball.
Well said.
Injuries have taken their toll, and still are, but it is
The Dodgers announced on Saturday morning that Walker Buehler will take Scherzer’s place on short rest, while rookie Ian Anderson will start for Atlanta.
Lets hope Walker not only has a great game but does not suffer long term harm going on short rest again.
I still don’t get it why the Dodgers went with Max in game two and walker in game three.
If they had flipped that walker and Max both would have been on normal rest.
Go dodgers!
Roberts had Scherzer pitch an inning in relief and now he can’t start and will need surgery and his career is over and the Dodgers will be without his services next year and they will never win the WS ever again.
THANKS DAVE!!!
This is why you don’t mess with the recovery schedule of pitchers who are already at the bleeding edge of peak performance versus breaking down. There is a tipping point.
I exaggerate a little to make a point.
Expecting Scherzer to alter his normal recovery routine and then go out and throw at “closer intensity” – i.e. harder than normal – in retrospect was not wise.
MadBum was like 25 when he was flogged for 200+ innings and then carried the team in the playoffs. He’s now only 32 and a shell of his former self.
Hershiser did the same thing in 88 – was used in relief multiple times. He had another good year in 89, but then he broke down. This probably wasn’t simply because he was used in the relief, but the overall workload in the preceding years was most certainly a contributor.
Max is 37
Why aren’t there any more Nolan Ryans? I dunno for sure. I don’t think Passan really knew, either. I have a hypothesis.
Butane on short rest for only the second time in his career. I do not think there will be long term effects. It is do or die time and they do not have many options.
Not all on Dave. This is an organizational decision. FO has a lot of input in who goes on the field. Right now they are fighting to keep their season alive. And you use the best possible lineup and pitching to do that. If they had another bullpen game and were to lose, the blame would be all over the place. It is not anyone’s fault that injuries to key players, especially the pitching, have caused a playoff dilemma. If they manage to pull it off, some will still complain that they have not got their pitching lined up for the World Series. Bauer, had he not gotten into the mess he is in would have been in the mix. Duffy and Hamels did not pan out. So the alternatives are a shaky Gonsolin, Price, who has not pitched in a couple of weeks and who has rarely pitched more than 3 innings all season. The kids, Mitch White and Andre Jackson. I actually think Gonsolin could do a decent job if he had the kind of control of his off speed stuff that he had at times when he started last season. White pitched some high leverage innings in his outings. The offense has to do it’s part today or there will be no tomorrow. Get some runs early. In fact get a lot of runs early and put the onus on the Braves. They have to play the game with the players they have. It might work, and it might not. Needless to say it is in the hands of the players. Play to their capabilities and they can win this.
Maybe his arm is sore, but stories in the LA Times and Daily News this morning reference only that he has “dead arm” and since I had that once when I pitched fast pitch softball and then coached softball pitchers for years and that was a common occurrence early in the season, I think the best way to describe it is like you’re running 400 yards or meters and you get to the last 75, all of a sudden your legs feel heavy and everything slows down. No matter how hard you push, everything becomes sluggish.
For a pitcher, the arm feels heavy, you begin to lose your snap and arm speed. The ball isn’t quite as lively. It becomes worse as you struggle through it. When it happened to me, my arm wasn’t really sore, but it was dead, felt like a weight was hanging on it.
Usually it bounces back in a few days.
I hate it when they pitch starters on short rest. Never really worked well for Clayton Kershaw. Now the Dodgers are in the same predicament.
No doubt some of this has to do with the Dodgers trying to chase down the Giants, no way to rest pitchers during that run.
Too many injuries to starters and the loss of Trevor Bauer. If Buehler is successful, can Scherzer bounce back Sunday? Possible. Is it something else other than a dead arm? Again, possible. But Scherzer seems to understand his arm. Not like he hasn’t had a bump or two along the way.
If the Dodgers somehow win this, will they have anything left in the tank for the Astros? All of a sudden, we’ve become the Tampa Bay Rays. The bullpen playing a greater role.
The bottom line the Dodgers still need to hit to win. Something they don’t seem to do with great consistency.
As Andrew Friedman looks back on how this season unfolded, no doubt that will factor into how he approaches the winter. If the Dodgers lose today, that process begins Sunday.
On the radio yesterday, someone was talking about Scott Boras having said, not necessarily in relation to this circumstance, that starting pitchers do not like to have their schedule altered by pitching in relief. One can say anything one wants about whether they should like it or not, but if they do not, they are unlikely to sign with a team which has a propensity for doing that, was the import.
Let’s see, if Scherzer does not sign, or if he is injured and out for two years, that does not leave us with many starters, does it? I guess there is Bobby Miller and Pepiot, they will be surefire stars next year, and we are just fine. Particularly when we get to the last part of the season, and the playoffs and we can use our starters in relief and on short rest.
If I had my way, the Dodgers would win the World Series and Kershaw and Scherzer would retire.
That still leaves Bauer and I have no opinion about that except to say that conventional wisdom is usually wrong.
I think David Price is done. Hamels and Duffy are gone.
That leaves Buehler, Urias (not a bad start), Gonsolin (someday he is going to put it together), May (probably by June), White, Pepiot, Jackson, Miller, Knack, and a couple of others.
This is what I love about baseball. Grow your own – lets’ go back to our own.
I’m still not ready to talk about next year. But, you make it hard to resist. They’re gonna need a whole new pitching staff after this postseason.
Bueller and Urias is still a better start to building a staff than most teams have. Bauer and May will be back at some point, so you only really need a fifth starter and a couple of guys to get you through the first half of the season. It would be useful to have another lefty to go with Urias.
I don’t think either Scherzer or Kershaw will retire. I would bring back both and try to use them somewhat sparingly. I would pay Scherzer and give Kershaw an incentive laden contract after reviewing medicals and getting fresh MRI’s. I’d also take a chance on Duffy on an incentive laden deal.
After those signings, I would be more than fine with starting the season with Bueller, Urias, White and Price in the rotation and if we’re a little lucky Bauer will be there too. Then you have Gonsolin, and the youngsters Pepiot, Jackson, Miller and Knack backing them up.
It might be appealing for Scherzer to resign with this team knowing that they often rest players and that he wouldn’t have to be leaned on like a traditional #1.
I think if Bauer does come back it will be with a different team.
Just a funny thought, but is Bauer still under administrative leave strictly from the league? I wonder what would happen if the Dodgers tried to add Bauer to the roster and activate him. Could you imagine him pitching in game 7 or the WS?
Is it true that Scherzer needs Tommy John surgery or is that just a rumor?
As far as I know, it is total BS.
Well, it wouldn’t be the Dodgers 2021 postseason if we weren’t dropping like flies. It is what it is.
This morning was quite interesting checking all the sites. David Price will start, It will be a bullpen game, Bueller will start. And just for good measure, the start time was pushed back to 8 PM Eastern. I guess you throw a bunch of crap at the wall and see what sticks.
More pontification, if we hit we win, if we pitch we win, if we’re healthy we win. It’s awfully simplistic to break down a game into such remedial notions. The fact of the matter is that all aspects of the game are important and each of them are key ingredients in a recipe for winning.
I would imagine that Bueller came to the park early and said “I’m ready”. More than likely he’ll will this thing into fruition. I wouldn’t bet against Big Game Bueller on this one and with a little luck, or love from the baseball gods Scherzer will be ready to go tomorrow. Or, Julio will step up on short rest and do the same thing that Bueller did today, or the bullpen will have additional rest and will be ready to shut down the opposition in a game 7.
Baseball is a funny game. The staff feeds off each other and the internal competition amongst teammates can sometimes out weight the competition towards their opponents. Or, the brotherhood aspect of being teammates will drive you to pick up your fallen soldier and take them to safety. I’ve seen several times this year where the rotation will streak and the team looks unbeatable, each starter feeding off the other. The same can be said about the bullpen and lineup as momentum is a powerful force and it feels like the pendulum is still on the way upward.
Don’t count out adversity as an invisible dynamic that propels a team towards greatness. The 88 team didn’t stop when Gibson couldn’t make the call, instead they dug deep and keep trudging forward. This is a relatively young veteran team that is battle tested beyond any other team in the sport. I’m not going to look even bother looking it up as I’m sure no other team is constructed of players with this much postseason experience. When you look around the roster, most of the stars are a bunch of twenty somethings already with long postseason resumes. That experience is a prerequisite to having the type of determination necessary to overcome so much adversity and still prevail.
Let’s look on the bright side here. Right now, we have one game to win, the one that is directly in front of us. We have a Cy Young candidate on the hill and a potent lineup to offer.
All this focus on the starting pitching has distracted us from the lineup for today’s game with righty Ian Anderson on the bump for Atlanta. I want to offer AF and Doc a little advice. Don’t overthink things. Just go with the hot hand where there’s a decision to be made and put people where they’re comfortable, both on the field and in the order.
Betts RF
Turner 2B
Seager SS
Smith C
Pollock LF
Pujols 1B
Bellinger CF
Taylor 3B
One last piece of advice. Stop the extreme shifts on Rosario, Albies and Freeman. They’re making you look really stupid.
Here’s what we don’t know:
1. How stretched out is White?
2. How does Buehler feel?
3. How serious is Bruihl’s arm?
4. Is Andre Jackson stretched out?
5. How far could Price go?
6. Has Scherzer ever experienced something like this?
Personally I should know but don’t:
If Bruihl is taken off the playoff roster can he be reinstated for next round?
With this much of an information deficit, you gotta trust the team and hope?
No?
Let’s go Buehler!
If Bruihl is removed from the roster, it has to be for an injury and he cannot be on the World Series roster.
Can Gavin play first base? I don’t think Dave Roberts will play Pujols today against right hander Ian Anderson.
Damn the torpedos. Full steam ahead!
Put Lux back in CF!
Show him some confidence and it just might propel him to amazing heights.
You would put Belli at 1B and Lux in CF in that scenario.
Everything is going wrong. We’ve got em right where we want them!
The Dodgers came into the playoffs with only three starting pitchers and have now overused each of them in the postseason. Buehler and Urias each logged career high innings this year in the regular season by far. And both have had significant arm surgeries earlier in their career. And now the Dodgers are pitching both on short rest in these playoffs when other options are available. There was no reason to pitch Urias in game 2 given the deep, effective bullpen. And then to bring him back again in game 4 on short rest when he had his worst outing in 4 months.
And Buehler was good on short rest against the Giants, but not his best in the next start.
I would prefer to keep Walker for game 7 and use the bullpen in game 6. The short and long term impact of pitching on 3 days rest multiple times is unknowable, and unnecessarily risky. I would rather risk losing a bullpen game in game 6, than risking a second TJ surgery for Buehler. And even if you only care about this playoff series, you have to win 2 games, and Buehler on full rest can pitch 7 or 8 innings, but on short rest, you will be lucky to get 4 or 5 innings.
As MT always states, the Dodgers front office has a thousand times more information than we do, and they are extremely intelligent. Maybe Max can start in game 7 per their info.
But from what I have seen, it is not worth the risk to start Buehler today. Not worth the injury risk, and not worth the performance risk. You have 9 available relief pitchers with a day off who can pitch 1 or 2 innings today.
Use your 26 man roster and let Buehler pitch on normal rest.
Hopefully, I am wrong, and Buehler pitches great, and the Dodgers find a way to win this series. I definitely hope Walker pitches a gem and they coast to a win.
PS – If Gavin Lux ball was a HR, it still would not have been a walkoff. It would have just tied the game in the bottom of the 9th.
There’s not a single reported story that says that Max has a sore elbow or that he needs Tommy John surgery. It’s Mark engaging in hyperbole.
The Dodgers are falling prey to the effects of the frailties of the human body, the grind of a long season and bad luck. Max pitching an extra inning didn’t cause long-term damage.
The inability to throw 200+ innings consistently is the result of the way the teams use pitchers today. As recently as 1971, Mickey Lolich threw 376 innings. Lolich, Wilbur Wood, Steve Calrton, Gaylord Perry, Phil Niekro, Nolan Ryan, Ferguson Jenkins, Andy Messersmith, Randy Jones, Jim Palmer, Catffish Hunter, Sam McDowell and others threw over 300 innings in a season, in many cases more than once. I don’t buy the narrative that Bumgarner was finished at 30 because he threw 226 innings in 2016.
By the way, the last time the Giants were in the Series was 2014, not 2016.
Very true. But 1971 was 50 years ago. Not all that recent. You see a pitcher pitch 200 innings any more it is a rarity.
I wonder what causes pitchers to succumb to natural human frailties? When you ask the human body to perform a specific physical task that is subject to potential repetitive motion injury, there are two predictive factors: intensity of the action, and the frequency of the action.
Teams use starting pitchers differently today. This is true. They are expected to throw harder. They don’t pitch to contact as much. They are expected to strike out more batters. In Steve Carlton’s best year, he struck out about 8 per 9 innings. Corbin Burnes struck out over 12,5 per 9 innings. Carlton also went into each game with the expectation that he would need to pitch 9 innings and he paced himself accordingly. He didn’t try to throw each pitch as hard as he could. Starting pitchers back then were also given longer leash. They could give up more base hits or walks with less likelihood of being pulled.
When there is the expectation that a starter will only pitch twice through the order and there is little margin for error, there is much more pressure to pitch closer to their physiological limit, both in terms of how high their performance is but also how close they can get to the point of physical breakdown.
I don’t know if Bumgartner’s innings and relief appearances earlier in the decade directly resulted in his decline in performance now, at 32, which is comparatively young, but I think it’s reasonable to entertain that idea, especially now considering how much harder modern pitchers work and how much closer they operate to their breaking point than, say, Gaylord Perry or Phil Neikro.
With Max there is the additional factor of age in addition to the intensity/frequency equation.
Lineup:
1. Turner 2B
2. Seager SS
3. Betts RF
4. Bellinger 1B
5. Smith C
6. Lux CF
7. Taylor 3B
8. Pollock LF
Stagger the hitters so there are not too many of the same L-R bent in a row.
Sandy Koufax and Don Drysdale say “Walker, what’s the big deal? Just go out there and pitch the game of your life!”
Sandy pitched game 7 of the 65 World Series on 2 days rest. And he shut the Twins out 2-0. Keep Rosario off of the bases, same with Albies. How ironic is it that a former Dodger leads the Astro’s to a huge win against the Red Sox? Alvarez hit over .500 in the ALCS and was named the MVP. That trade for Fields does not look so great right now.
Friedman was anxious to get rid of any of Coletti’s Cuban signings, no matter how good or potentially good they might be. How many Cuban Players are in the organization? And, if there is, they won’t be around for too much longer.
I for one do not think that Kershaw is going to retire. I have to believe that he does not want to retire with a season like this being his last. That being said, I think all the chatter that he might sign with the Rangers is baseless. The guy wants to win. And it will be quite a few years before the Rangers could challenge any team in their division. Scherzer is not going to quit either. Only some sort of catastrophic injury could compel a guy with his competitive zeal to quit. Patch, there are no more Nolan Ryan’s simply because pitchers today are not trained to go 9. Teams want a quality start. 6 innings and let the bullpen take over. The salaries that they get paid today make a successful starter a huge investment. And investors hate losing money. Which is probably one reason the the ownership of the Dodgers are probably pretty livid at what happened with Bauer. There will be a lot of speculation this winter about free agents and where they might go. Freidman has his work cut out for him.
“Patch, there are no more Nolan Ryan’s simply because pitchers today are not trained to go 9.”
Do you think starting pitchers “back in day” were in better physical condition than they are now? Do you think the training methods were better back then? Do you think they had better off-season conditioning routines, better diet, better access to state of the art facilities, motion capture movement pattern data, sports and conditioning coaches and physical therapists back in the 60s and 70s?
With all of the state-of-the art science and technology available to teams and athletes, it all must be a bunch of bunk because it ain’t doing a very good job if the objective is to have starters pitch more innings … or even avoid injury.
No, they had none of those things. They also were pitching for their next contract. It wasn’t until free agency that the multiyear deals came along. Pitch badly and you were replaced. Starters were expected to go 9. Relievers were usually pitchers on their way down. That only began to change in the mid 50’s. They trained different, and used a totally different medical approach. Shots for sore arms were more prevalent, Rotator cuff surgery did not exist. The biggest difference is the money they make when they are successful. Hell, even middle of the rotation guys are getting deals in excess of 10 mil or more. You want to milk that investment as long as you can. So you limit innings and workload.
On another topic, I was disgusted to see the Astros celebrate, on their way to a possible world championship. A bunch of jerks who never took responsibility for cheating, thought that the ends justified the means. And here is the network excited about them winning. With a commissioner who did nothing to any of the players who cheated. And all this sanctimony in sports, but no one with the courage to take away their title, and suspend the cheaters, at least have a serious investigation of it with details. They might be cheating this year, who knows? In Texas, it’s all about getting what the big men want; and rules, laws, and keeping their citizens warm in freezing temperatures, do not matter to them The Astros, from top to bottom, epitomize it. If the Dodgers do not get into the World Series, I will not watch a minute of it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there are very few Astros from ‘17 still on the active roster.
Should the celebration of those others be genuine and untainted?
Logically, perhaps, but emotionally, no. I still see Correia and Altuve and Bregman and Guriel, and that is all I need to decide that I will not watch one minute of the World Series i f the Dodgers are not in it. The people in Houston do not care, they just want to win, however they define that.
I wouldn’t mind if their entire infield jumped off a cliff.
Could not agree with you more.
Disgusting that MLB did not take that title away and suspend those cheaters.
In other cases MLB has come down hard on cheaters, eg shoeless Joe Jackson, the Black Sox, Pete Rose just to name a few cases.
Or Lance Armstrong who had all his titles taken away by the TDF.
Dodgers should have been awarded the 2017 WS.
Go Dodgets!
This is why you have to act decisively. Bart Giaimatti died suddenly in his tenure and he didn’t serve for very long, but I think he is he is still well respected. Commissioner Landis unleashed the nuclear option on Shoeless Joe, but gambling then became a non-issue until the Peter Rose incident – a good 70 years.
When the integrity of a trusted institution is in question, often it is essential to act decisively to regain that trust … or the whole system erodes and collapses.
Our institutions – the media industrial complex, politicians, law enforcement and intelligence – even the scientific community – are willing to squander trust for a larger purpose, for a larger agenda. This does not bode well for a healthy republic.
Manfred was unwilling (more likely unable) to act decisively to regain trust. There were too many agendas to serve; too many interests to placate. It was a scandal that had to be managed through a public relations lens rather than acted upon.
So, being that baseball is often a microcosm of the larger social forces at work in its respective era, we lose our faith and trust in its integrity just like we are losing faith in our larger institutions.
As a long time cyclist and professional cycling fan, I was a part of the Armstrong saga when it happened. We all wanted to believe a fairy tale. I did. Armstrong was just the tip of the iceberg, and hid a deep rot within the sport. Cycling had to take drastic measures to overcome the corruption in the sport. Right now cycling is relatively free of rumors of doping.
“Don’t count out adversity as an invisible dynamic that propels a team towards greatness.”
One of the better comments you’ve made BandP. I agree 100%.
Thomas Paine, a big Dodger fan, once said the following:
These are the times that try men’s souls; the summer ballplayer and the sunshine fan will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his team; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of all Dodger fans.
(I may have gotten a few of the words wrong, but Thomas knew what he was talking about)
Old Bear, spot on with your SP thoughts…
I laugh a little when I think about a manager moseying out to the bump in the 7th. to remove say Big D or oven more dangerous Bob Gibson… Chaos would ensue…
As I’ve said before Old Bear, thanks for your input on LA Dodger Talk and your advise to the uninformed commenters.
GO blue… Play like your arse is on fire…
If I remember right, one of his managers came out to take Gibson out of a game and he told him to get the hell out of here or something to that effect.
The Dodgers are going to either have a bullpen game for game 6 or game 7 and they chose game 7. They have to win both. Why did they chose game 7? Buehler on short rest for game 6 apparently was better than bullpen on short rest for game 6.
Buehler would go into the 2022 season with fewer innings under his hood if the Dodgers were to lose a bullpen game in game 6 as he wouldn’t have to pitch game 7.
If starting Buehler in game 6 is based on the hope Scherzer can pitch in game 7 then I hope the Dodgers know something they are not sharing with us.
The Dodgers top pitching prospects will have inning limits next year which begs the question as to what the rotation will be for next year’s playoffs. Hard to give enough rest to all 5 members of a rotation which would be the case if two prospects and Kershaw and Scherzer are a big part of the rotation.
Seager would upgrade the Yankees defense over Gleyber plus give them a much needed lefty bat. The Yanks are going to make the Dodgers pay high to keep Seager. That plus Bauer limits what the Dodgers will do rotation wise next year.
If Scherzer gets rid of his dead arm the Dodgers can load up the innings they give him through the World Series. It might be best long term if Buehler and Urias don’t add on World Series innings to their 2021 season totals.
I don’t expect both Max and Clayton on our roster next season.
I would prefer Max if it comes down to choose.
In any case we will need a couple of inning eaters to lessen the workload on our aces.
Go Dodgers!
Has anybody noticed that Verdugo seems to be much heavier now than when he played for the Dodgers?
The Dodgers have a culture of healthy eating. Guys have given up carbs, dairy etc. Turner came in lighter this year etc. etc. Of course not everyone buys in, but it is there. But then you go elsewhere and maybe that’s not the case. Doesn’t Joc also look bigger this year?
Yes, Joc needs to have a healthy diet this off season
Joc looks large, has a bad haircut, & now wears a pearl necklace. YEESH!
Don’t forget the gaudy WS ring.
Hey glad for him and us he was with us last year. And honestly nothing against him at all, just my opinion that he is looking a little large & weird. And I fully support both his right to do it, and my right to comment on it.
cheers
pb+
You sound like you wear a bow tie porpoiseboy 😉
Good one Bum and I love the haircut.
That will be the day. Don’t quit YOUR day job though. 🙂
Joc is fat and looks like shit these days IMO.
Suit you better?
This one is for you porpoiseboy:
https://youtu.be/9mDGcxbAusg
Dude, I do not follow link as a general rule
Thanks fish not biting today
You should bite. It will amuse you.
Anyone remember, Spahn & Sain and pray for rain? Maybe we could get a Clem Labine performance from someone. (Oldtimers will know what I mean!)
I do and don’t forget Larry Sherry.
Warren Spahn and Johnny Sain. Mainstays of the 1948 Boston Braves. They lost the World Series to the Indians. So it has been 73 years since the Tribe won a World Series. And when they win their next one, if they ever do, it will not be as the Indians. But with their new name. The Cleveland Guardians. Spiders would have been better.
And I agree with those who say its too early to talk about next year. Plenty of time for that after we beat the Cheatos.
Too many unknowns. Who leaving as FA, who needs Tommy John or other surgery, etc.
“In my opinion, it is absolutely essential that the Dodgers score more runs than the Braves if they have any hopes of winning. … but this is just my opinion.”
“Brilliant! That captures all the nuance”
To be honest, that was a little of me just being a smartass. A response to the “you hit you win” commentary I keep seeing.
“Ya know, plain and simple, if the Dodgers just hit, pitch, run and field … they’ll probably win.” Ya don’t say!
But to your point, we do like the mental masturbation of micro analyzing every aspect of the game here. It’s a hobby. In the immortal words of a former owner (who would be run out of the game today) of a team I don’t particularly care for, “Just win, baby.”
I realize that 😉
Goes without saying Mark. Clearly, you knew and repeating it was clever/appropriate.
I think it should be now a bullpen game, they have a day off, in their last game everyone worked with their normal workloads, 20 pitches approximately, shouldn’t Buehler start today, he should start tomorrow with his rest normal, Buehler is the cornerstone in the future of the rotation.
Also:
The sun will rise tomorrow (well maybe not is northern CA.)
And Roberts and AF have more information than us.
So no need to post either of these.
Between 2013-2015 Kershaw went on three days rest three times. He never went less than 6 innings and never gave up more than 3. If Buehler can give them 6 & 2 the offense and pen should be able to cover the rest.
Tonight’s winning 8PM ET Starting Lineup:
RF Mookie Betts R
SS Corey Seager L
2B Trea Turner R
C Will Smith R
3B Chris Taylor R
CF C. Bellinger L
LF AJ Pollock R
1B Matt Beaty L
P W. Buehler R
Atlanta Braves’ Lineup:
LF E. Rosario L
1B F. Freeman L
2B Ozzie Albies S
3B Austin Riley R
CF Adam Duvall R
RF Joc Pederson L
SS D. Swanson R
C T. d’Arnaud R
P Ian Anderson R
And Joc is still hitting homers in October! I don’t think Atlanta cares what he looks like! And tonight it’s time for the top of the lineup to help the bottom of the lineup! And it’s time for Beaty to earn his paycheck. Roberts going with defense tonight sitting Lux from playing center and starting Beaty at first.
Max optimistic he can go tomorrow. Just doesn’t know how long he’ll be able to go. I’m paraphrasing here but those words are from Max’s mouth
Seager swings 3-0 and TT swings at ball four. What happened to pass the baton , run up the pitch count, and get to the pen?
Everything’s being hit hard even the double play ball. Come on Buehler stiffen that upper lip
A lot of barrels going on they’re lucky that two were hit right at somebody
I don’t like giving in with a base open. The check swing very well could have been called a strike especially if you’re going by intent.
If Mookie, Seager and Turner don’t produce our season ends tonight
Feels strange that I have more faith in the bottom of the order right now.
Turner swinging at ball 4 again. Luckily the next pitch wasn’t competitive and he was able to walk
Seager trying to pull everything you’re not going to match what CT3 did the other night
Who is the guy wearing Bellinger’s uniform and where did he come from?!!! I love the two strike approach
Love the approach the proof is in the pudding why can’t we recognize it other than a few players
Goodnight and goodbye!
Wait until next year…that was a dagger to the heart.
One too many fast balls. Change up or curveball?!?!
It was a cutter.
Cutter is a type of fastball. He obviously had the fastball/cutter timed.
This is far from over.
Love your optimism. Would have liked it a lot more had they tacked on last inning. Taylor swung at ball 4, Pollock swung at an inside pitch he could not handle. They have to do it against the Braves pen now.
Can’t walk the 8 hitter first and foremost. Especially when you had him 1-2. Some luck on the broken bat double and a bad pitch on the HR. Got to elevate there. Had him 0-2. Stay up
tired arms don’t always make the best pitches.
He looked like he was getting stronger then the walk. Had Rosario O-2 on identical pitches. Wish he had come back with another just a bit higher. Props to Buehler. At least he took the ball.
Nobody was tired after 60 games last year…..I guess 162 games is different….
Can’t give the hottest hitter in the playoffs anything good. First base was open. Possible season ending mistake.
And having him 0-2
Had Riley 0-2 in the first inning too. Just didn’t quite have put-away stuff. Buehler battled — I appreciate the effort. Now let’s somehow put together another late rally and break the Braves’ hearts
Yet he gave up 4 runs in what? 4 innings or so …. Sandy Koufax is shaking his head……
We knew going in the offense would have to do their part if we have a shot at the game. Good old Jekyl/Hyde Dodger offense.
Graterol wasn’t pitching well enough I guess
I’d have liked to see the hottest hitter in the MLB pitted against the hottest pitcher in the MLB. At least we survived.
Money Blake. It’s odd having a worry free bullpen, hope it continues into next year.
A home run is a rally killer there I’m glad he got the double in that situation
Please don’t take Jackson out!!!
If that “rally killer” double is a HR the score is tied. If you don’t
I never want to see Souza’s face again.
Mookie makes me sick with that cut in that situation
When everybody including the hotdog man realizes he’s got to shorten up it’s just selfish
3 terrible AB’s. Souza was predictable unfortunately. I would have preferred anyone to Souza. Bad Bad AB by Albert. Mookie too.
Wow, three guys going down like that…..
I can see Sousa….he shouldn’t even be in the majors, but I’m surprised to see Pujols not even hit the ball somewhere…..and what was Mookie thinking? How can you take the first two pitches for strikes? Now you are in such a disadvantage….oh well…..I’m just frustrated seeing second and third with no outs and we get nothing……sigh
Mookster 0 -4. Ouch.
Unfortunately, The two guys following him were also 0-fer as well. (Seager and Trea)
Very difficult to win when your top 3 are o-fers.
Three whiffs in a row with 2nd and 3rd no outs. Ouch!!
Microcosm of the season. Three outs to just hit a bloop single and tie the game. That Pujols opportunity had storybook ending written all over it. Ah boys…
I would have put Lux or even Barnes infor Souza. He would have at least HIT THE BALL.
Anyone. Too bad they called Souza back earlier in the game and sent Burnes up there.
Apparently the unwritten law is you don’t use your back up catcher to only pinch hit because if your starting catcher gets injured you are in lots of doggie Pooh.
Thanks TM. Average fans like me don’t always know the “whys” of things unless somebody points it out.
You are welcome. Glad I can help….cheers….
Two more shots. It ain’t over til it’s over!
Lets give the pitcher credit for a great job done
Quiz time…….
Juxtapose Matzak’s pitching to the six batters he faced on top of Vesia’s three batters he faced.
What stands out when comparing the two?
We guessed wrong for all three outs. Albert guessed fastball, got breaking.
Souza guessed breaking and got fastballs.
Mookie guessed breaking and took two fastballs.
Finally guessed right , but missed fastball for strike three
Dang, we want to mow the Dodgers – looks like it could be the Braves
– Astro Fan
Kenley, man. Captain Comeback. Heart of the order (the real heart) coming up.
That sucked every inch. It was ours to win . Treinen did a monumental job to keep up in , give the team a HUGE LIFT, then they threw it away with three strike outs. F*ck me DEAD!
Yeah, that 7th inning will be a tough one to forget.
We didn’t hit, we didn’t win.
Betts, Seager, Turner 0fer. 14 Ks, 2 for 10 WRISP.
The All or Nothing Gang whiffs its way into the sunset. See some of you next year.
Hats off to Snitker.
TT : the INVISIBLE MAN of postseason play.
Yep. What hits he had were meaningless. His approach was terrible.
Game went as scripted. Guys fought and made it competitive, and I’d expect nothing less from this team, but in a season of perpetual obstacles it was just too much to overcome. Probably the most frustrating 106 game winning team you could ever hope to root for. I’d gladly do it all over again, but hopefully they fix some things.
Some of you whiners who call yourself Dodger fans yet bitch about everything are pathetic. We are lucky to have such a great organization to root for year after year. You are the real losers, not the Dodgers. Disgraceful.
Lighten up rudy.
Just dissatisfied and frustrated and pissed friend.
100% agree. I’m proud of this team to do what they did even with all the adversity they faced. I’ll tip my cap the the Braves and will be rooting for them to smash the Astros.
For all the people that want to bash on Trea, you bashed on Pollock and now he’s a postseason stud. That will be Trea next year. Last year’s heros, Seager and Betts were this year’s slugs. Not everyone steps up every postseason.
Why do you say Betts was a slug? Didnt he bat .313?
Oh well saves us the embarrassment of being annihilated by Houston. We just didn’t have the team with all the injuries to beat a hot Houston team like that in the World Series and I would’ve hated to lose to them
To be a gentleman and I’ll congratulate Atlanta. But there’s no way in hell they would’ve beat us if we were even at half strength
Pedro’s already starting to throw the Dodgers management and front office under the bus. He’s already starting questions about how they handled the pitching staff.
He’s always been biased about the Dodgers.
It’s a valid discussion. They still had a chance to win but the front office opened themselves up to that criticism whether it was the deciding factor or not.
Fuck Houston
2nd!
The hitting just wasn’t there.
Losing Muncy and Kershaw was big.
They gave it a battle, and I thought we might pull it out in the seventh, but Matzak was unhittable, by us. We certainly did not disgrace ourselves, with players getting hurt in every game, but it’s a very disappointing way to end a 106-win regular season, to an 88-win team, with all their fans jumping up and down.
We gave away the second game, and you can’t afford to do that. And we had some players who just didn’t hit at all. And we have had some trouble all year putting together scoring innings when we don’t get 15 runs or so. No one scores big in every game, but we did not really maximize our chances in some key games. But even with all of that, had we had the fourth starter, whether Kershaw or Bauer or even May, we might have done it. But three starters down the stretch ,and then a wildcard game, and a grueling five-game series as road team, made it too difficult for our starters, none of whom pitched to their abilities in the series.
It’s always very tough when the season ends, and there is no more baseball. And we cannot just look to next season to be better–unless we make some great moves in the offseason, which is certainly not impossible. Thanks for all the great discussions this year, an d a group of largely very decent and knowledgeable fellow Dodgers fans.
I’m glad Kenley finished with two K’s. If that was his last outing as a Dodger I’m glad he finished that way.
Strange season. I don’t think any team has ever won 106 games and feel like they weren’t 100% clicking. So many injuries. The team almost got there still. I thought we were going to pull it out in the 7th.
Kudos to AF for bringing in the guys to win. I wish the two Nats would have shown up in the NLCS. I don’t know what next years roster will look like. That’s what makes it sad.
A very frustrating game and series against the Braves. Atlanta outplayed us for the series and deserves the win. Rosario outplayed every Dodger player, and Matzek was great. This was a winnable series for the Dodgers, with the blown save in game 2 and the lack of hitting throughout the series. But the Dodgers best players did not perform, and the injuries caught up with the team.
Anything less than a World Series title for this team with this payroll is a disappointment, but I am thankful for an exciting season overall. Let’s not forget some of the best moments this year:
106 win regular season
Great playoff series win against the Giants.
20 game winner in Julio who was great in a starting role.
Walker Buehler with a Cy Young caliber year.
Kenley Jansen with a great bounceback year and a great postseason.
Treinen had a great year and was one of most unhittable relievers in the game.
Taylor was an all star, had a walkoff home run against the cards, and great series against the Braves.
Will Smith stepped up and performed like an all star catcher.
Pollock had a huge year, his best as a Dodger, and contributed in the postseason.
Muncy was an MVP candidate for most of the year.
Betts, Seager, Justin Turner had solid years.
Trade acquisitions Scherzer and Trea Turner were great additions for the regular season, even if disappointing in the playoffs.
Pujols showed great leadership and his homer in St Louis was epic.
Bellinger had awesome game winning hits against Giants and Braves in playoffs to help forget the regular season.
Kershaw is still my favorite Dodger ever, and pitched until his arm almost fell off.
And thanks to the LA Dodger Talk group for entertaining and intelligent baseball discussion!
Great summary….great post. Thanks.
TM
Props to Walker Buehler he really stood up and made no excuses. Really proud of him
Have no real interest in the WS. Turning my attention to the NFL and more specifically the Rams. Going to Sofi tomorrow to watch them Beat the Lions.
The loss to the Braves stings a lot but our boys ran out of steam. AF is going to have to get creative and make some very tough FA decisions. Have the legal team work to void Bauer’s contract so that money can be used to keep our own FAs and make a trade or two to further build out the bench and bolster the minor leagues.
He will also need to assess whether or not CK and Scherzer are viable options next year. I’m highly skeptical CK can pitch next year now knowing he had the plasma rich injection which is a pseudonym for “Tommy John surgery.”
I’ll let this pain subside and then offer my two cents on what I think AF should do later. While the Dodgers have deep pockets they probably can’t or won’t commit to signing CK, CT3, KJ , Seager and Scherzer.
Many tough decisions ahead but the one thing I’m confident with is the NL West title will for the foreseeable future go through LA and not SF or SD
Your last line is much comfort right now. GO DODGERS!!!!!
Probably can if they can get out of Bauer’s deal. AF might have different ideas. Seager says he absolutely would like to come back. He might have to say that publicly.
Thanks to the GREAT MARK TIMMONS!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, Thank You for hosting this site Mark. It will be a strange off-season. An expiring CBA, potentially adding the DH to the NL, and so many free-agents that we’ve been rooting on for a long-time.
One big irony to the end of the season.
The last game was played in Atlanta. Where the all star game was supposed to be played until Roberts, the Dodgers and others complained about the Georgia voting bill. Now the World Series will be played in Georgia.
Today is the hardest day that I have had as a Dodgers fan, many times I have been eliminated, but whenever that happened clearly the opposing teams were better, today is the first time that a team that was clearly inferior has eliminated me, just He was better in a short series than anyone can win, I guess now we pay those times we won with a much inferior team in 1988.
This defeat is very tough because the chances of winning everything were very good since there was no team better than the Dodgers but they couldn’t show it on the field of play; It will also take a long time for the team to integrate a list of the level that was had in 2021, the Dodgers will continue to have good teams but like 2021 it will be very difficult to match.
I’m disappointed also, but looking back we had a great season, we won 106 games. We’ll get back to the playoffs next year hopefully heathy.
There were 10 teams with better records than the Braves, and the Braves have outplayed two of them, proving it’s not how you start, it’s how you finish. I think most of us know that. And the Dodgers, after an historic and odd year, finished with a whimper. I don’t hold anyone but the players responsible. The Dodgers are a Formula 1 car that had a few broken parts then ran out of gas at the finish line. It happens.
I am not sure about Trea Turner. I think Mark’s comment about him having some knucklehead in him is accurate. He’s not a second baseman, that’s for sure, and I have doubts he’s any better defensively at short. We may find out next year. Betts wasn’t right for months. Hopefully what is wrong with him will be fixed this winter. We obviously missed Muncy. Justin Turner is a DH, Bellinger will be back and be great agsun and I think Kershaw is likely done, certainly as a frontline starter. What’s he worth now? Certainly not $30 million.
I have no interest in the World Series, but I think Houston will roll Atlanta. It’s now officially football season for me. Go Rams. I’m a Pac 12 guy and I saw a chart yesterday that said even if Oregon wins out their chance of making the playoff is 2%. One loss in this conference is apparently enough to eliminate it. I think that’s evidence of a Midwest/Southern bias. But, as is often said, it is what it is.