The St. Louis Cardinals have always been an iconic organization in MLB and arguably the most successful NL via winning more WS than any other NL team, trailing only the NYY. The Cardinals have won 11 WS in 19 appearances. They also hold the ire of Dodger fans as St. Louis has beaten the LAD in four postseason series (1985 NLCS, 2004, NLDS, 2013 NLCS, and 2014 NLDS) against a single series win (2009 NLDS).
My oldest son grew up a Cardinals fan during the 80’s. As a youth ball SS, naturally Ozzie Smith was his idol, and all through youth ball, he wore #1 in his honor. He knew every Cardinals lineup throughout the 80’s. One of his thrills was learning that one of his favorite Cardinals, Ken Oberkfell, was his manager at Piedmont (South Atlantic League) in 1998. He had a fantastic year being mentored by Oberkfell.
For the last several days, the baseball world has been discussing to death the impending Nolan Arenado trade to the Cardinals. When the trade was announced as official, my son, texted me and said it reminds him of the 1985 Jack Clark trade to the Cardinals, of course with a 😈.
But for me, it reminded me about how so very successful the Cardinals have been with their high visibility trades, and there have been many.
June 15, 1964 – Cubs traded Lou Brock, LHP Jack Spring, and RHP Paul Toth, and in return, the Cardinals traded RHP Ernie Broglio, OF Doug Clemens, and LHP Bobby Shantz. Lou Brock went on to HOF and was the ML record holder in SB before Rickey Henderson broke his record. Ernie Broglio remained in the ML for two more years with the Cubs, but was not very successful. He retired in 1966 at the age of 30.
December 10, 1981 – Padres traded Ozzie Smith, RHP Steve Mura, and LHP Al Olmsted, and in return, the Cardinals traded SS Garry Templeton, OF Sixto Lezcano, and RHP Luis DeLeon. Garry Templeton had a wonderful 16 year career, 10 with the Padres where he hit .252/.293/.339/.632. Whereas Ozzie spent the next 15 years with St. Louis culminating in his enshrinement into the National Baseball HOF, forever known as The Wizard of Oz.
October 21, 1981 – The Yankees traded OF Willie McGee to St. Louis in exchange for LHP Bob Sykes. McGee was the Yankees first round draft pick in 1977 out of Diablo Valley Community College in the Bay Area of California, but never played for NYY. McGee had a fantastic 18 year career, with the first 13 with the Cardinals. In 1985, McGee was one of 5 Cardinal players to have stolen at least 30 bases.
- Vince Coleman – 110
- Willie McGee – 56
- Andy Van Slyke – 34
- Ozzie Smith – 31
- Tom Herr -31
Sykes never pitched for NYY or anyone else after the trade.
July 31, 1997 – Oakland A’s traded Mark McGwire to the Cardinals in exchange for RHP Eric Ludwick, RHP T.J. Mathews, RHP Blake Stein. McGwire felt right at home in St. Louis and signed an extension, spending his final five years in MLB with the Cardinals. In those five years, he hit 220 HRs, including a then single season ML record of 70 in 1998, followed by 65 in 1999. None of the three players received by the A’s were productive in stay with Oakland or MLB for that matter. Mathews had a non-productive five years, with Oakland while Ludwick was gone after 1997 and Stein after his one season in 1998.
March 23, 2000 – Anaheim Angels traded CF Jim Edmonds to the Cardinals in exchange for RHP Kent Bottenfield and INF Adam Kennedy. The prize for Anaheim was Kennedy who was a productive 2B for the Angels and a key player in their 2002 WS win. However, Jim Edmonds had a monster eight years with the Cardinals. Edmonds easily is in my top-10 favorite non-Dodger players. Since Willie Mays retired in 1973, only two CF have gone on to have HOF careers; Ken Griffey Jr, and Kirby Puckett. While Jr.’s numbers did not embarrass Edmonds, Jr., was clearly the better player. However, I submit that Jim Edmonds had superior numbers than did Puckett. I am not saying that Puckett was not worthy of HOF, but Jim Edmonds didn’t even qualify for a second year of voting.
- Jr. – .284/.370/.538/.907, 630 HR, 1,836 RBI, 10XGG, 136 OPS+, and 83.8 WAR
- Edmonds – .284/.376/.527/.903, 393 HR, 1,199 RBI, 8XGG, 132 OPS+, and 60.4 WAR
- Puckett – .318/.360/.477/.837, 207 HR, 1,085 RBI, 6XGG, 124 OPS+, and 51.1 WAR
Most everyone on this site, believes that Gil Hodges deserves to be inducted into the HOF, myself included. Different era and different positions, but let’s make a little comparison just the same.
- Hodges – .273/.359/.487/.846, 370 HR, 1,274 RBI, 3XGG, 120 OPS+, and 43.9 WAR
It is inconceivable to me, how Edmonds can put up the numbers he did and garnering only 2.5% of the vote. And Harold Baines is in the HOF????
July 29, 2002 – Philadelphia traded Scott Rolen and RHP Doug Nickle to St. Louis in exchange for INF Placido Polanco, LHP Bud Smith, RHP Mike Timlin. Polanco had a productive 7 years with the Phillies, but it pales in comparison to the HOF consideration worthy career for Rolen. Many Cardinal fans are comparing the Arenado trade to that of Rolen. This one was a little special for me, as the player included with Rolen was Doug Nickle. Nickle and my son were very close friends in the Phillies organization. They played together in Clearwater, Reading, and Scranton/Wilkes Barre, with Andy catching him all three years.
July 24, 2009 – Oakland traded Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for 3B Brett Wallace, OF Shane Peterson, and RHP Clayton Mortensen. Holliday had an outstanding 8 years with the Cardinals. Neither Brett Wallace nor Clayton Mortensen, played for Oakland, and Peterson had 7 ABs.
December 5, 2018 – Arizona traded Paul Goldschmidt to St. Louis in exchange for Catcher Carson Kelly, RHSP Luke Weaver, and INF Andy Young. This one still has a ways to go to get a final grade. Goldschmidt has had a good start in his Cardinals career, but Kelly as the starting catcher, and Weaver in the rotation, look like keepers for the DBacks.
There have been others like the trades for Jack Clark (1985) and Bruce Sutter (1980) that appear to be one sided as well. Brock, Smith, and Sutter all went on to be inducted into the HOF as Cardinals, and Rolen could very well follow them in next year. IMO Edmonds should also have been voted in. Hopefully the Veteran’s Committee can right that wrong (along with Hodges).
I recognize that teams other than St. Louis have had one sided high visibility trades. Unfortunately, the Dodgers have been on the wrong side of many of those trades. They have traded future HOF players like Pedro Martinez and Mike Piazza, and a stellar 1B, Paul Konerko. We certainly do not need to rehash those trades. Hopefully Mookie can turn Dodgers future trade fortunes around.
What is special about the Cardinals, is after the trades, McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, and Goldschmidt all signed extensions to prolong their productive Cardinals career. They had the opportunity to become FA and yet they decided to remain in St. Louis. Nolan Arenado does not fit those parameters, but he can opt out after either the 2021 or 2022 seasons, but he has made it clear that he fully intends to finish his career in St. Louis. Of course those are words and he has two years to change or honor those words into deeds.
Miscellaneous charts giving credence to some of Jim Edmonds exploits being HOF worthy.
Edmonds had a great yack follow-through. Used to imitate it post HR.
Edmonds should definitely be in the hall. He is more than worthy. Saw him play many times and he was as clutch as any hitter I have ever seen. And his defense? Well there have been few better.
Speaking of Edmonds and Baines, this is exactly what I was referring to, there are players who make one think “Why is he in the Hall of Fame and this other is not there? I do not know which or how many numbers are necessary to get there, but for me, it is the HALL OF FAME and not the hall of all-time leaders in certain categories.
Also, why are sports writers who decide who enters and who does not? It should be by vote, just like it is with the all-star game
The Hall was established and built by Stephen Carlton Clark, who was an heir to the Singer Sewing Machine fortune. He sought to bring tourists to a city hard hit by the depression and prohibition which devastated the local hops industry. He built the building and it was dedicated in 1939. Not sure how it came about, but the writers have been the ones who voted on candidates since the beginning. Probably because they were at every game their teams played. And the thought was that they could be more objective than say fellow players and coaches. If you picked Hall of Fame players by popular vote, it would be full of players who were popular, but not the best in the game. Writers are restricted to voting for only 10 players. The rules have changed over the years. In the early days they could vote for active players. And at first there was no waiting period after retirement. Joe DiMaggio actually recieved votes in 1945. There have been special circumstances where no waiting period was used, notably when Lou Gehrig was inducted, and also for Tommy Lasorda. They allowed Addie Joss to be elected even though he only played 9 seasons, and you are supposed to have 10 years. Joss had meningitis and they knew he was dying. It was also used when Roberto Clemente died. There have been Veteran’s and Golden Era committees added since, and they vote on players who were pre WWII< and Negro League players, and then also guys like Hodges who did not make the hall and yet have the stats.
The Angels trade for Cobb reminds of the Dodgers trade for Knebel: costs abot $5m & a prospect although ours was fringe at best.
Cruz back with the Twins. Crickets from Dodgerland.
Good read this morning from Ken Rosenthal in the Athletic about the gap between the Union and MLB over many issues, most prominently the DH and expanded playoffs being a bundled political football. He looks at both sides and their lack of cooperation and tardiness in addressing these issues. I can’t stand Manfred and MLB but it seems the Union is equally guilty in this one. The fact that fans seem overwhelmingly in favor of the DH and a 14 team playoff, neither side cares much about the fans. Without changes in the cast of characters, it seems to me damn near impossible for the two sides to find enough compromise to avoid a work stoppage next year. The 2 sides dislike each other so much, the seems no middle ground.
I love Nelson Cruz. He is a class act and fell out of bed hitting. He’s the prototypical DH. He just resigned with the Twins, which may have been inevitable but his bargaining position as a free agent was undoubtedly compromised by the lack of the DH in the NL. That cut potential suitors in half and perhaps costing him money.
This whole stubbornness by both sides just pisses me off.
That is the way it has been ever since free agency was declared. Neither side to me has ever negotiated in good faith, and neither seems to give a rats ass about the fans. Even the strike in the 94 season did not make these fools realize where the money actually comes from. Fans spend billions on these teams. Jersey’s, caps, all sorts of souvenirs. Not to mention the massive amount of money paid on parking and concessions. Parking at Dodger Stadium is ridiculous. Cruz had interest in the Dodgers, and had there been agreement on the DH could very well have ended up in a Dodger uni. And his power plays anywhere.
I do not care about the DH one way or the other. It is an extra bat, and with the Dodgers depth it is an advantage. But to return the roster size to 28 (also like last year) would be an advantage for the Dodgers as well, as their pitching depth is second to none. But I despise the expanded playoffs. I hate the notion that a sub .500 team can come into the playoffs and beat a division winner in a three game series. That is akin to March Madness. It does not necessarily measure the best team in the sport that year, but more the hottest team. Best team more often times does win, but not always, and to go out in a short series just is not right. I prefer the eight team playoff…one wild card, and increasing the Divisional Series to 7 games. The 162 game season would mean something. A Wild Card team could still win, but it is much tougher in a 7 game series.
I am more on the Union side on this one. Not because of the argument, but because they negotiated in good faith for a CBA that has been mostly favorable to the owners because of stupid negotiation by Tony Clark going up against a labor negotiator like Manfred. The MLBPA represents the players. That is all they should do. Just like any Union. Manfred is the Commissioner of Baseball, and his (or her) charge is to represent the “best interests in Baseball”. However, since the Commissioner is hired by the Owners, it is generally the owners interest that the Commissioner is protecting. If the Owners selected a Commissioner who did act in response to the fans as patrons for the best interest in Baseball, there might not be as much dissension. Nevertheless MLBPA agreed to the deal and the players ratified it and have to live with it. So do the Owners. Now Manfred is coming to the MLBPA and asking them to give up their right to a 162 game schedule that GUARANTEES them full salary.
The Agreement presented to the MLBPA was admittedly for a 154 game schedule with a guarantee of pay for 162 games. On the surface, what is the issue. Play 154 games and get 162 game pay. No brainer, right? Not so fast. What the Owners are not advertising is that in that Agreement, MLBPA would also be ceding their right to determine if any additional delays that can be subject to prorated pay is justified. The Agreement only calls for the Owners to CONSULT with medical experts and MLBPA. There is no requirement for agreement. There is no stop gap to prevent the Owners for unilaterally deciding to stop the season and prorate pay as long as the MLBPA was CONSULTED.
Of course the Owners would not do that. Right? Except that MLBPA’s memory really is not that short. Last year the Players agreed that for health and safety the season needed to be delayed, and in that March Agreement was a stipulation that the Owners (sole discretion) decides the schedule. That Agreement called for the Owners to play the MOST GAMES POSSIBLE. I said at the time that Clark was bamboozled yet again. He trusted the Owners to do what was best for ALL parties in MLB. Every scenario put out by the Owners did not maximize the number of games to be played, but always came back to the labor costs in a 60 game schedule. Yes, the MLBPA was CONSULTED. But they did not have a vote. The MLBPA reluctantly threw up their hands and told the Owners to just tell them when the season will start and how many games, and the Players would show up. MLBPA had the 162 game schedule in the CBA. They had to give that up, and they did because of the pandemic.
But now they remember from last year. The Owners again are coming to the MLBPA and asking for some relief in the schedule. I do not for a minute believe it is because they care about the health and safety of the players. They want a delay in the season so that there is more time to administer the vaccine that will potentially open up the stadiums for a 154 game season after a 30 day delay. Of course the Owners again are promising to consult with the MLBPA, but is NOT GUARANTEEING anything about full salary. Why should the MLBPA trust anything that Manfred or the Owners say. If the Owners agree that no matter how many games are played, the players will get full salary as is called for in the CBA, they will undoubtedly go for it. They might even agree to the expanded playoffs that are strictly for the benefit of the owners. As long as the Players get 50% of the gate for the playoffs that is required per the CBA.
Words have meanings, and Manfred, as a skilled labor negotiator, knows all too well how to place certain ones in an agreement to the Owners best benefit. By all accounts, Clark was taken in the last CBA and the March 2020 Agreement because he did not anticipate certain events. The Owners did not anticipate a pandemic causing a shortage of games and what that might mean for salaries. It might seem trivial and something that should be easy to resolve, but to the MLBPA “shame me once, shame on you, shame me twice, shame on me.” Right now the MLBPA has the leverage. The Owners are coming on as the responsible party, but IMO they are the wolf in sheep’s clothing. They want to hide behind the word CONSULT and then stiff the Players again. MLBPA says not this time. We are playing 162 games starting April 1, as agreed to.
Players feel they got hosed with last agreement and they will be playing hardball next year. It’s hard to imagine that there won’t be some kind of work stoppage next year. That will be 3 years in a row of reduced revenue. And 3 years of fans not getting to participate in a full season of baseball. That will not be good for the game. I’m already frustrated with both sides. In such a times like these millionaires squabbling with billionaires and depriving us the fans of the baseball we want to see next year after these last 2 years. MLB can’t afford to lose any remaining fans they have!
Agree with all of this
Jeff, I think MLBPA is holding firm on starting on time for ST and the regular 162 game season. The owners want to start a month later with 154 games but pay players for 162. As you astutely point out “What the Owners are not advertising is that in that Agreement, MLBPA would also be ceding their right to determine if any additional delays that can be subject to prorated pay is justified.”
As far ansi know, the jury might still be out in Arizona and Florida about starting ST on time. As the Union and MLB argue this the states may make this moot.
So, if Clark is still holding a grudge over being taken in the last agreement, that seems so amateurish. Everything was a mess last spring. Put that all aside and get busy making an agreement for This YEAR. Are there adults in the room?
I too hate the first round matchups with 1 versus 8 in a 3 game playoff, by the way.
I am not against pushing the season back 30 days for health and safety. It seems very prudent. But the cynic in me says that this is not going to be gone in 45 days. So does it then get pushed back another 30 days? What the owners want is to be able to unilaterally say yes and to be able to prorate salaries. That is what I object to. If the owners tell MLBPA that all they want to do is move the start date back 30 days with no strings, no other conditions, I cannot see MLBPA objecting to that.
I agree there needs to be adults in the room. But that goes for the Owners as well. Do not try to negotiate the next CBA with this issue. Make it a one issue Agreement.
I don’t like the expanded playoffs, period. It’s too watered down already, and so vulnerable to a good team having a bad series, or a bad team having a good series, that it’s becoming rare to see the best teams play for the title. Isn’t that why there’s a season, so we can let the best rise to the top and watch the best go at one another for the title? In my opinion, owners are turning MLB into “everyone plays” Little League so no one’s feelings are hurt, and of course profit, but I have no qualms about profit.
47% of the major league teams are in the playoffs? Absurd. Totally absurd.
Kolten Wong to the Brewers in a multi year deal, pending physical.
Two years, $18MM, with a club option of $8MM for 2023. Per ken Rosenthal. This is a good signing for Milwaukee. Wong is a tremendous 2B, but unfortunately his lack of power does not translate well, even for a 2B, in this era.
An event manager could rent an arena, hire a band, sell tickets, hire security and ushers, and get a TV contract to expand the revenue. But how many people would buy tickets to watch a reunion of the Turtles if they were the kind of band hired?
A singer can establish themselves on the Internet but baseball players need a league, stadium, etc to establish themselves. Betts would not make a living as a baseball player without the MLB.
MLB owners need awesome players to attract fans. They can’t fill stadiums if the public does not think they are watching the best.
I guess as long as owners keep charging fans exorbitant prices for watching a game whether in person of on TV subscription, players should likewise charge the owners exorbitant salaries.
I agree in principle, but eventually the greed will destroy the game. Empires rise, empires fall.
I would have also accepted “Oceans rise, empires fall.”
The Turtles reunion with both Flo and Eddie? Now I might go to that one. My Daughter In Law was in charge of hiring the entertainment for the El Dorado Casino/Hotel in Reno for several years, and one of the annual events in Reno is the Great El Dorado BBQ, Brews, and Blues Festival. They close off Virginia St. and have a huge street party. It is great fun. For that event she ends up signing many from more of the “classic” generation. The idea is to draw people to the event to spend money on BBQ and Beer. What could possibly be better than that. She often times has asked me my opinion of the acts and whether I would come to see them.
One year (3 or 4 years ago) she signed Canned Heat. I said absolutely I would see them. Bob Hite (AKA Bear) has passed, but they were still very good. They were worth seeing.
So there are some of us, who would gladly go to see Flo and Eddie perform again.
Well, it seems you are Happy Together.
I went to Westchester high school (in LA) with Howard and Mark aka Flo and Eddie. They were the Crossfires in high school and very popular. After they became the Turtles and had a couple of hits they offered to play at school at no cost. The principal wouldn’t allow it because they had long hair. A different time.
Phil Hartman was also an alum of Westchester and a classmate. He was a real goofball and was always doing gags to draw attention to himself. But, he was a real talent and passed way too soon.
He was murdered by his wife. I remember the case well. Was fun seeing him go up against Schwarzenegger in Jingle all the Way.
Baseball attendance has been steadily declining over last several years through 2019. After 20 and 21, a work stoppage in 22 could be lethal. And what is baseball doing to attract the younger generation. Most whom would rather attend a gaming championship than a baseball one. When us old farts die off this game is in trouble
MLB should be finding us and bringing the vaccine to our homes.
Has not affected Dodger attendance. They have led MLB the last 7 years. But a work stoppage in 2022 will not be a good thing.
Not sure if fans would buy tickets to watch post season games if the games had no path to a championship and instead gave them draft pick positioning. What?
Let’s say the 6 Division winners and two wild card teams compete for the championship. That is an 8 team playoff system.
Then add the next best 8 teams to the post-season where they play for the first 8 picks in the draft followed by the remaining 14 teams drafting in positions 9 through 22.
This keeps the best 8 teams with the last 8 draft picks in each round but penalizes the worst 14 teams. It puts 16 teams in the post season but does not weaken the field competing for the championship.
Why should teams that don’t spend on payroll even though they get revenue sharing from the large market teams be rewarded with the best draft picks?
Will fans show up to watch the draft pick post season?
Jake Amaya has a ST invite. For those who do not watch much MiLB, watch Amaya play SS this Spring. He is considered a plus defender, and the best defensive infielder in the organization. He can stay at SS, but many still see him transitioning to 2B where he could garner some GG consideration. He still needs to elevate his hitting, as he has a 1.5 GO/AO ratio. He will never have the power. Many beleive if he did have average power potential he would be a Top 100 prospect today. But he does have decent plate discipline. He has 170 K with 147 BB in 973 PA. 17.5% K rate. He will need to decrease that number without his power, but he has the tools to do so.
He is very intriguing. Glad to see he got the invite. Apparently what he lacks in foot speed he makes up with quickness. I read where if he continues to add some weight he could hit 12 to 15 home runs. Also, he doesn’t chase out of the strike zone.
Could Turner take a one-year deal for $ 5 million and offer him $ 15 the next? I don’t know if as an option or just to make a promise, it would be possible, but would it be legal? Would it be appropriate?
You could structure it that way,
$5M in 2021
$15M in 2020
but the AAV for the CBT would be $10M / yr
If just a one year deal than would just be a hand shake deal for 2022. Don’t think MLB or MLBPA would approve if they suspected that.
Soria to the D-Bags.
We’ve probably lost Eric as a Dodger fan now! Certainly as an AF fan!
I’ve also heard Bum bought a place near Wrigleyville
Rented. And I now have season tickets behind a column with partial views of the field. It’s not like I own a 1000 acre raisin farm in Fresno.
Still $3.5MM guaranteed is less than I thought he would get. I think this is a good deal for the DBacks.
Twins are now expected to sign Colome. That would leave Rosenthal and Melancon as top relievers still available. Melancon has been a good reliever, just tooooooo expensive. In 20 playoff games, he was scored on in only three, two of which were not good at all. He was not very good in SF, but everywhere else he has been. Okay not very good in Boston in 2012. Maybe he would take $3.5MM and a better chance for a WS ring. Same with Rosenthal who is also looking for that ring.
Still sure we’re not signing Bauer, Timmons?
We could be packaging a starting pitcher for a 3b.
Careful DL. You’re headed into idiot territory!
Living in Southern Illinois I am surrounded by cards fans. You can’t shut them up now after getting Arenado. They make me sick but look out they are about a pitcher away while la seems to be frozen.
Talk about St. Louis trades how about Larry Walker.
What about maybe signing Shane Greene? He was a target at the deadline a couple of years ago and ended up going to the Braves. Had decent stats last year, and still is unsigned. Only 31 years old.
Like that idea, Bear!
Shane Greene would be an excellent addition to the bullpen!
Jansen
Treinen
Knebel
Graterol
Gonzalez
Kelly
Floro
Kolerak
Alexander
White
Santana
Sborz
Gonsolin?
Kahnle??
Cleavinger & the NRIs???
Do we need another reliever? We need Turner and another bench piece.
Knebel is a question mark who had a 6.00 ERA last year. Kahnle probably won’t pitch as he is recovering from surgery. Cleavinger is a 27 year old career minor leaguer who can’t throw strikes and and he has never been good. White looked pretty good in very limited innings last year – Santana didn’t and either did Sborz. I can’t stand Joe Kelly and he can’t be trusted.
This probably isn’t a World Series bullpen as constituted. However, someone pointed out that Scott Kazmir is still available – maybe we can resign him along with the other walking wounded (Nelson, Morrow, Kahnle).
Assuming a 13 man pitching staff, we have 6 legit SPs right now. That leaves 7 open jobs.
I agree that a lot of the options are imperfect.
KJ
Treinen
Graterol
Gonzalez
Gonsolin
Kolerak
Floro
That doesn’t look bad to me.
I think this may have been “cut and pasted” from last February.
Except that with the exception of Knebel for El Gasolino, it is a WS bullpen.
King Felix was a free agent? For a million he would have been worth giving him a contract, now is in Baltimore…
What a lot of people don’t realize is that on many teams a guy like Mitch White would be a favorite to land a job. With us, there is so much competition good players will inevitably be left off.
My prediction is Nelson will be a game changer next year. You heard it here first!
He’s well-rested!
Started 91 games from 2015-2017 but three since then.
Sleeper 5th starter in 2021?