It’s is becoming pretty apparent that the Astros are a bunch of cheating, dirty-rotten scoundrels who stole the 2017 World Series from the LA Dodgers with their Criminal ways. In some aspects, this is worthy of a “Pete Rose-Type Ban” for the Players involved. The video evidence is mounting all over YouTube, compiled by amateurs.
Rob Manfred and his Minions should have independent counsel or prosecutors investigating this and forcing involved parties to be turning “states evidence” for a reduced charge or lesser suspension. What if all the team and coaches were complicit? Could they be suspended? Could Houston possibly not field an MLB team this year? There are lots of questions.
Did they do it?
Were they complicit?
Was it pre-meditated?
Did it give them an unfair advantage/
Was it illegal?
Hang ’em High!
From here on, the Houston Astros shall be known as the Houston Asterisks and Jeff Luhnow should suffer the fate of being banned from baseball for life.
.. and that is just the beginning!
Yes, MLB should look at the 2017, 18, and 19 season. If they can prove it, then every player or personnel, who participated, should be banned from baseball-lifetime. You cannot allow cheating. Much worse than what Pete Rose did. It will be very hard to prove. If a couple of players will talked, that may be their only chance. Even then, what do you do to the player who says, yes the team did it, but I did not listen to the verbal signs. I would love to hear from attorneys on this sight. If the Astros have to field a AAA team next year, so be it.
1) I agree with Mark. As the evidence mounts, the verdict seems pretty clear at this point. Punishment should be severe.
2)As I never played baseball and have no expertise in the matter, I’d like to hear from those who did. Would such a scheme make any difference to you as a batter or would the information coming to you split seconds before the pitch just confuse you more than anything?
3) If the answer to #2 above is that in fact it would be (is) a significant benefit, the solution is simple. Henceforth, all signals between pitcher and catcher must be encrypted.
I would tell anyone being interviewed that if they are caught lying they will be banned from baseball. That should get the truth out of them. And I agree, punishment should be severe. Imagine pitchers on the bubble who got lit up! Imagine how different the narrative would be if Kershaw had been a WS hero instead of giving up dingers.
Imagine how many careers have been affected!
This is WORSE than what Pete Rose did. So let the punishment reflect that.
You mean ban those guys for two lifetimes?
The comments I’ve seen from some of the Dodgers are milder than I would have thought. I really hope that the Astros were the only ones doing this, but I’m thinking that probably isn’t the case. I have no clue which other teams might have been involved or to what degree (the Astros may well have been the worst offenders), but let’s face it, the first time we heard about someone hacking a major company’s records did we all think that was going to be the only incident? If the technology is there, other people will have probably exploited it.
PED use wasn’t restricted to only one team once the players realized it was out there.
Manfred will definitely come down very hard and I think this will be enough to stop future incidents, but I really don’t think past activity was only done by one team.
Many of the infamous Black Sox received lifetime bans, so did Rose and I believe a lifetime ban is the sentence for 3 time PED offenders. I think at a minimum, the person who wrote the email, should get a lifetime ban. Then, the most willing participants who came up with the “method” should also receive lifetime bans. I think that includes Carlos Beltran, so the Mets would need to find a new manager.
I’m not sure how hefty the punishments should be for everyone else on the team that participated to lesser degrees. For example, if you put everyone on the suspended list for a year, it would seem that the other AL West teams would receive an unfair advantage, while our own boys in blue would receive nothing.
You can make a case that the Dodgers lost the most as a result of their cheating. Some sort of restitution should be paid to the Dodgers. I also think that their championship should be stripped, trophies and rings confiscated. Some say you can’t do that, but I think you absolutely should. There is no way a team that won a Championship by cheating so blatantly should be rewarded. I don’t think you give the Championship to the Dodgers, but the Astros should absolutely be stripped of it.
This really sucks and I hate to keep revisiting this as a Dodgers fan because it rubs a little salt in the wound for me. On the other hand, it absolutely deserves to be discussed further.
I think when it’s all said and done, they will not come close to another championship any time soon. It’s going to be very telling if any free agent signs with that team with such a dark cloud overhead. Their two best pitchers are going to be aging quickly as this is being sorted out. They’re circling the toilet surely.
I wasn’t saying there shouldn’t be lifetime bans but you said it was worse than Rose and the penalty should reflect that. Just saying, how do you do more than a lifetime ban. I guess we’re talking semantics here. Your point is taken.
I have absolutely no problem stripping the Astros of their title, but also agree that you don’t give it to us. The Yankees could make a claim on it also, etc.
Manfred will use a heavy hand when all is said and done but whatever he does people will scream about it. Some will say “too much” while others will say “not enough”.
No it’s not. It’s not even close IMO.
Rose broke a rule that was iron-clad and without grey area. Every player knows you can’t bet on games. And Rose bet on his own games, games in which he was a key cog.
The Astros operated in a game (sign-stealing) that has long been allowed and accepted.
The biggest thing for me is that Rose acted alone. The Astros were a concerted effort between, players, coaches, scouts and the order given by an executive. Sign-sealing is not allowed and accepted when using technology to aid you. That area is not grey. Furthermore, while sign-stealing isn’t considered an illegal act on the field of play, it is and always has been frowned upon, which is hardly “accepted”.
As far as what’s worse than a lifetime ban? Well, for starters fines, loss of draft picks and money taken away from signing pools can all be added on as team penalties. That would be worse than just bans for the people involved.
Going back to the Rose thing for a minute. There was never any evidence that he bet on his team to lose as far as I understand it. So, what Pete did, theoretically did not effect the outcome of the game. Cheating definitely effects the outcome of the game, so it is far worse in my book.
It doesn’t matter if he bet on them to win or lose to effect the outcome of a game. He was the manager!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If he has money on them to win, he would be as inclined to make irrational decisions (burn through relievers, be overly aggressive) as if he had money to lose. Also, if he bets on his team to win two days in a row and then doesn’t bet the third, that’s an awful, awful, awful situation.
He’s scum.
The way Rose had impacting game outcome was using up the bullpen on games he bet to win on. Thusly the pen was spent for the games he didn’t bet on. Through that lens rose did fix games….just not to win.
….but specifically, they violated it using electronic equipment which was specifically banned.
I think We should bang the can slowly on this, maybe try whistling until the bat drops. When all is said and done, I think the Astros should have to return Yordan Alvarez to the Dodgers.
I’d rather get some of their future first round picks. There’s gonna be some good ones coming up. 😉
The alleged cheating (which seems to be pretty well proven, is a major detriment to the integrity of the game. Something along the lines is warranted:
AJ Hinch should be banned for life. He was the manager and would have the ultimate say on what went on in the dugout.
The Astros should have to vacate their WS championship.
Fines imposed should reflect the amount the team made by winning the WS (whatever the team share was).
They should lose their first round pick for 5 years.
Major props for “Houston Astericks”!
BTW, the graphic for this post is priceless! Bravo!!!
Alex Cora was a bench coach for the Astros* in 2017…coincidence that the 2018 Red Sox also cruised through the postseason? How far does this go?
SBuffalo’s analogy yesterday of the Dodgers and Ford vs. Ferrari was spot on… Heck of a movie too…
Still mulling over Jason’s drive-by post yesterday… I compare it to a obscene phone call, meant to disrupt the LADT crew…
The Houston Asterisk thing, I’ll just let MLB figure it out..
18 untouchables… MT, put that bong or gummy edibles away
Happy Thanksgiving folks…
P.S. where r u Watford my Man
It seems that a hallmark of much of our modern culture is that if you can cheat and win, it is acceptable, if not admirable. This is a very bad thing, from more than one perspective.
A fairly recent book disclosed how the New York Giants of 1951 set up a similar, if not as technologically advanced, system, which clearly was a major factor in their almost unbelievable hot streak in the last two months of the season, leading to the playoff victory over the Dodgers. I don’t follow the NFL much, but I guess that New England has been embroiled in a few scandals of their own, with no consequences in terms of forfeiting games. The only time a team is punished in sports is when a college program used an ineligible player, then their wins are usually stricken from the record, though they still got to win them, and maybe even a title, at the time.
Back to baseball, we have read about many decades of pitchers doctoring the baseballs, sometimes catchers collaborating. We’ve heard about corked bats. So many players taking steroids. How does Alex Rodriguez get to strut around as a major TV commentator? It is virtually unquestionable that he took steroids. Most of the home run records in MLB are forever tainted. Say it ain’t so., Barry and Sammy and Mark. Did they give any of the money or awards back? I won’t even get into the matter of political elections. Cheat, win, and take the spoils. Bill McCartney was the coach of Colorado in college football, he had this rather weird semi-religious thing about “Promise Keepers,” which his players were supposed to join. There was a game where Colorado was literally and provably given an extra down in the last few seconds against Missouri, and they scored the winning touchdown on the fifth down, maintaining their undefeated season and an ultimate share of the national title. McCartney was asked to agree to forfeit the game , but would not. Winning was everything to him. He is not the only one.
Great comeback William, although I take exception to Coach Belicheck, Brady and his team… Hell I don’t even like N.E….
I am a little jealous though over the years…
Pete Rose, with the IQ of a walnut was given a life time suspension for lying twice as I recall, to the NFL…
Rich Hill out till June from October surgery and I will assume probably out as a Dodger… I really liked Hill and what he added to our staff…
1. First of all, congratulations Mark for your birthday and good that you’re already in better health
2. Why does nobody talk about Cora and Boston? He was part of the Houston cheater team a year earlier
3. Why do most people say that Cole is the best available pitcher? Strasburg is better without cheating, than Cole cheating
4. You can go forgetting Hill, at least until the middle of the year …
5. I don’t care what they do with Houston and possibly with Boston, that doesn’t change the fact that Dodgers lost both world series and nothing would make us feel better.
Hard to determine what the punishment will be for the Astericks. In the past several years, there have been a couple of examples that might give us some guidance. First was the RedSox who broke rules concerning the signing of International free agents. The Red Sox penalty for circumventing the rules was that they were prohibited from signing any international free agents for a year, and the players involved were declared free agents, with Boston unable to recoup their signing bonuses, which remained with the players. It was the first time a team had been penalized in this fashion. The Braves engaged in similar activity as the Red Sox, only more so. as reported by Fangraphs “As a result, the players who were part of the scheme in the 2015-2016 signing period were declared free agents. In addition, the players who the Braves were able to sign in the next period only because of the previous scheme were also declared free agents. The Braves were also unable to recoup the bonuses handed out to these players. This was essentially the same penalty as the Red Sox, except that, because of the way the Braves broke the rules, they lost about ten times more in bonus money. The Braves were prevented from giving out a bonus of more than $10,000 for a year, similar to the Red Sox, but they also received further penalties in the form of a smaller bonus pool in 2020-2021. On top of the organizational penalties, former general manager John Coppolella was permanently banned from working in baseball, while special assistant Gordon Blakely was suspended for a year.” The difference in the penalties seemed to center on the fact that the Red Sox cooperated with the investigation, while some of the Braves didn’t.
There was also the St. Louis Cardinals “hacking” situation involving, ironically, the Astros. MLB awarded the Astros two Cardinals’ draft picks and $2 million; Also, Chris Correa, who was deemed uncooperative with MLB, received a lifetime ban.
The last time penalties were meted out for sign-stealing, the lack of organizational knowledge was deemed a plus by Manfred. When the league set down a fine for the Red Sox in 2017, Manfred noted the following:
“In assessing the significance of this violation, the investigation established three relevant points. First, the violation in question occurred without the knowledge of ownership or front office personnel. Second, when the Red Sox learned of the Yankees’ complaint, they immediately halted the conduct in question and then cooperated completely in my investigation. I have received absolute assurances from the Red Sox that there will be no future violations of this type. Third, our investigation revealed that Clubs have employed various strategies to decode signs that do not violate our rules. The Red Sox’ strategy violated our rules because of the use of an electronic device.”
So whatever happens here, the 3 things considered by MLB with the Red Sox, will play an important factor in determining the extent of the punishment. In my opinion, it should be severe.
I doubt the other teams would allow the Dodgers to get reimbursed so probably the penalty will only negatively affect the Asterisks without any direct benefits to ant team.
Whatever penalty that is dished out should sting.
As the bench coach in 2017, Alex Cora was involved.
No ways around it… unless he wasn’t doing his job!
To pull this off, there had to be a significant number of people involved. That makes it more difficult. Did it really happen? It would certainly help to know a curve or change up was coming. Almost every batter had to be involved in someway.