Let’s Throw Out The Baby With The Bathwater

When the Giants won the World Series three out of five years, does anyone remember what happened in between?  What is of interest to me is that after winning the World Series in 2012, in 2013 the Giants were ten games under .500 the next year – 10 GAMES!  Then, the very next year, they won the World Series again.

Just because some moron says the Dodgers don’t have depth, doesn’t mean it’s true.  Someone posted an article by Howard Cole mocking the Dodger’s depth.  Of course he did.  That’s what he does… based upon 38 games this year, he thinks that proves the Dodgers have no depth? I won’t even try and reason with someone who is so obviously devoid of commons sense – I guess it’s not common in his case. The Dodgers do have amazing depth, up and down the system, but how do you plan for crazy stuff like this?

The Dodgers signed Logan Forsythe as depth, especially if Justin Turner went down.  So, for a minute, it looked to be a great move, until Forsythe went down too.  The Dodgers’ front office is evidently composed of jackasses for not having another All-Star Caliber shortstop to back up Corey Seager.  Why did they not do that?  They should have had Francisco Lindor and Carlos Carerra stashed on their 40 man roster.  Cole is absolutely right – they had no depth after Seager. [I case you don’t know – that is sarcasm.]

The Dodgers should have predicted that Bellinger and Taylor would “regress.”  Really?  What makes you think they have “regressed” after seeing all of 38 games?  “Well the bathwater is dirty, let’s throw out the baby too!” Yeah, that’s the ticket! I don’t think either player has regressed.  I think they will be fine – maybe they are trying to do too much, but my opinion (for those who care) is that they will be just fine. I do agree with moving them down in the lineup. They both will figure it out. Taylor has to stop looking at so many called 3rd strikes – that is fixable.

On the other hand, I think they should have played Kike more – let’s see what he can do as a regular.  I don’t like that they didn’t. I don’t know what the front office’s fascination with Joc Pederson is.  The Anti-FAZ faction will say that FAZ keeps THEIR players (which is dumb and wrong), but Joc is not their player and neither is Puig.  Both of them are killing the team… in different ways.  Farmer looks lost and right now the team is composed of a bunch of Punch & Judy Hitters.

Depth?  Look at the depth at catcher – the pipeline is full of potentially great ones.  Andrew Toles was depth in the outfield, as is Henry Ramos.  Toles’ injury has really hurt this mash unit.  So, when your “depth” goes down too, you have no “depth?” Maybe your depth needs “depth?”  Yeah, that’s what he means. Cole says the Dodgers have no depth, but lots of baseball people who can actually think and have common sense have stated otherwise… a lot!  At this moment in time, Cole may be right… for a minute, but he’s wrong… as usual!

I have said it many times: this front office is not perfect.  I was OK with the moves they made last offseason, but many weren’t and so far, it looks like you were right… but it’s a very long season.  I still think the Dodgers will win the division because of their DEPTH!  It’s fashionable to pile one when someone is down, but I have not lost faith in the front office… not even close. If you think they are going away anytime soon, you also are delusional.  They have built a world-class organization – one of the best in baseball.  They have lots of depth, regardless of what some may say.

The main thing that bothers me is that they are so “streaky.”  They can go 52-8 and then lost 17 in a row!  I’d like to “fix” that. They are in that “17 in a row rut right now.”

“There is no depth!”

“The sky is falling!”

“Taylor and Bellinger have regressed!”

“The Dodgers are an absolute mess.”

Shock journalism sells.  But, it’s nonsensical – like throwing the baby out with the bathwater! Just Dumb! … and some people have a depth of dumb!

This too shall pass – I just wish it would hurry up and do it!

Posted by Mark Timmons

We started LA Dodger Talk in 2001. This site is about giving another perspective outside of the average day-to-day reporting. We don't do game recaps or such things -- lots of sites do that well. I value sabermetrics, but don't think they are the "end-all-be-all.". This is where you should start your day as a Dodger Fan. Welcome! We'd like to hear your voice.

This article has 48 Comments

  1. Nice try, MT, but it’s time to put up the Tom Petty “Freefallin'” video once again.

  2. I agree with you Mark. We are not dead yet. We are 8 behind. What is disturbing is cannot beat the teams right now that we should beat. Some changes need to be made and fairly soon. Joc is not the answer. He has been given to many opportunities. It is time to move on. Taylor has to stop striking out. Bellinger has to start hitting the pitches right down the middle. Getting our third baseman back will help.

    These are the players I would look at trading sometime this year. They are: Joc, Puig, Forsythe, Ryu, Hill and Grandal. The answer to our catching position is in the minors. Verdugo, Toles and Kemp should be the starters in the outfield at some point this year. The infield is set for some time. Bellinger, Taylor, Seager and Turner should be the starters. Now to figure out the pitchers. I do not believe Stewart or Stripling are starters. They belong in the bull pen. Kershaw, Wood, Beuhler and Maeda would be four starters. The fifth starter should come from the minors. I still believe the bull pen pieces are there. They just need to figure it out. Moving Stripling and Stewart to the bull pen helps.

    The negative I see is the kind of baseball we play. We do not play good fundamental baseball and Doc does concern me for that reason.

  3. I don’t think it’s so much that they didn’t build depth but did they build the right depth that has so many of us upset. Barnes and Farmer are nice pieces but they can’t hit. Joc is a nice guy, a farmhand but he can’t hit. Muncy is a nice piece for OKC but he’s not big league depth. Utley is a great guy, a solid veteran-great clubhouse guy, but he’s done.

    Hudson is a nice guy, probably the 25th man on a 25 man roster, but he’s not the right depth. Alexander is showing signs he might have figured things out, but it’s OK to question if he was the right depth vs Watson. Love Hernandez, but he’s nothing special in the big scheme of things.

    I think Cole is right when he says the talk about depth is overrated. You can tout all you want about the players stashed at OKC and Tulsa and the names on the roster in LA, but when the lights get turned on you have to perform. Yes, the FO has acquired depth, every team acquires depth. The real question is have they acquired the right depth. One could argue Joc, Font, Hudson, Farmer, Barnes, Locastro, Zach Neal, Utley, and others are depth, but the real question is…… Are they the right depth…….the evidence so far says NO!

    1. … after 38 games!

      Never mind the 104 games won the year before. That doesn’t count.

      Everybody know you can win 104 games any day without depth!

      This is not like back in the 80’s when the 49’ers had All-Stars 3 deep at many positions.

  4. The Dodgers don’t have ready for showtime players that would necessarily be better than any of the following except for Toles, and he for one reason or another can’t keep himself on the field:
    Pederson, Grandal, Barnes, Bellinger, Taylor, Puig, Utley, Hernandez,.
    .
    FAZ has tried to bring up AAA players and they didn’t help. Verdugo, Farmer, Muncy, Verdugo, Locastro.
    .
    The offense misses Turner and Seager and last year’s call ups Bellinger and Taylor have yet to repeat their 2017 performance.
    .
    The Dodgers need Machado. And if they sign him as a free agent, consideration should be given to Seager plugging the second base hole for as long as Turner excels at third and then move Seager to third.
    .

      1. Bum

        The point is the Toles can hit, and he has took advantage of every opportunity he has been given.

        Unlike Joc, who has been given opportunity after opportunity, and Joc is the same player he has always been, except he is not the same defensive centerfielder, he once was.

        Because Joc is already amassing negative defensive runs saved, in the short time he has played in center, this year.

        Toles not only had to put in hard work, to just be healthy when he came to spring training this year, he also put in hard work, to be ready to hit, in spring training this year.

        Unlike Joc, who came to spring training again this year, looking like he needed to learn how to hit.

        And in the competition in spring training, Toles easily beat out Joc, even after Roberts put more weight on the scale, for Joc.

        And you like to bring up Joc’s average exit velocity, but it is under 90, and that is not a great AEV, even though Joc does not have close to the amount of at bats, that most major league hitters have, that do have a high AEVs.

        1. Stop repeating the same thing over and over again about Joc. Everybody knows your position. And why do you insist on responding to me with tired content. Back up your take about Joc’s defense with a link to his defensive measure. He is a good center fielder. He is better in CF than is Toles.
          .
          I like Toles and I would like to watch him; play and he would be if he could keep himself on the field. He reminds me of Milton Bradley but with a good personality.
          .
          MJ, it’s unhealthy to hate and you have hate for Joc.

          1. Bum

            The truth is everyone here, knows almost every remark you make everyday, is about Joc!

            So we know exactly where you stand!

            And it gets old, seeing you to try to discredit other players, to try to make Joc look good.

            Just like your remark, about Toles staying on the field.

            Toles has never went back on the field, so he didn’t re injure himself, he just had a small set back, and that is it.

            And your Milton Bradley remark, is just another one of your remarks, to try to shoot another player down, that is better then Joc.

            And about center, Toles had better defensive metrics, in center last year, then Joc has had, in the last couple years.

            And Joc has not played that much in center this year, so he doesn’t have more innings in center this year, then Toles did, last year.

            I know the defensive metrics, just like I was aware, of the average exit velocities, that you tried to push, that were not accurate, after one week.

            And that wasn’t this week, that was three weeks ago.

            And you are only calling me a hater, because I am speaking the truth.

            And I am far from the only one, that feels that way.

  5. Mark, I do think that you make solid points. However a guy like Forsyth has been hurt every year he cannot be counted on. It looked like he would be the depth needed but the reality is he just isn’t. He is a very good defensive second basemen who played well in the playoffs last year, but he has been a regular season dL guy and was with Tampa bay. With all the injuries and poor performance and Kiké can’t get into the lineup, if he is that bad in Roberts eyes just get rid of him. He is taking up a roster spot that we need. Just play him or get rid of him. Our starting pitching needs a quality dependable starter which we do not have. The offense is very stressed in part because there is not a quality hitter to take the pressure off of guys like bellinger. Turner will do that even if he starts slowly. His quality at bats will help. The depth will not be as thin when he can play everyday. I think the front office needs to look for a starting pitcher, put Maeda in the pen, and trade for machado with the idea that they will sign him. It may be too late for this year as we are running out of games with Cinci Miami, etc.

  6. It’s too early to blow up the team, and help is on the way soon. It’s not to early to change the way the team is playing. We can put the blame on management for how the team is constructed, Doc for the lineups and in game moves, the players who have vastly under performed or the injuries which have been plentiful. In reality it is a combination of all these factors but the missing ingredient is fire in the belly. I am sure the players care but so far they are accepting not only losing but poor fundamental play. The management and Doc’s patience is not unlimited and they have seen about enough and are starting to move some minor league pieces around to get some more help at the big league level. Their plan to be fresh for the long season is scrapped, witness Buehler being in the rotation already. If the team can stay close they can deal for pieces later in the season. For now we will scrap along and hopefully turn a corner soon. Odds are Cody, Puig and Taylor will turn things around but when? It is frustrating right now to watch this team flail around but I believe they are too good to play this badly. It’s time they played like the Dodgers uniform they wear means something special!

  7. What is the most concerning is that, even though we are ‘only’ 38 games into the season, this feels like a continuation of the huge Sept slide from last year. Yes, the boys in blue had a good postseason (until they didn’t) but that had a lot to do with playoff grit, motivation, and adrenalin. The team we are seeing is the team that absolutely sucked for nearly a month last year. My point is this is not a sudden thing. It started last year. Perhaps, without the magic of ’17 when everything fell into place, these Dodgers are just not very good. Still, 124 games to go things can still get turned around. Man, I hope so because this season has been painful to watch!

  8. Someone said we a few posts back none of realize the impact not having Turner in the lineup would have, well I did and many of us did.

    Turner and Seager out? No depth can make up for that. They made the lineup what it was last year. They set the tone for Taylor Bellinger and Puig. You simply can’t make up for those guys and as long as they are out, I see this continuing. Tough luck for us this year.

    Now with that said, Pederson should have been cut after the all star game in 2015, still my opinion the worst player to ever make it by hitting home runs, sex sells. I think he hit 6 the second half?

    Forsythe was a terrible pickup, cut bait.

    It will be a long year with Seager and Turner on the bench

  9. “I think I will just run this post everyday until something changes… if something changes. These guys make Mendoza look like a superstar and it’s the same every day. They can’t advance runners, can’t move runners, can’t bunt, can’t hit, can’t homer, can’t pitch.” – Mark Timmons

    The Dodgers have won 2 series this year – 2! They have lost series to 2 of the worst teams in the NL (San Diego and Miami) and have lost 2 in a row to the 3rd (Cincinnati). The difference? These 3 teams are TRYING to lose – they are tanking and the Dodgers still can’t beat them!

    Taylor has had 1 good season. He is leading baseball in striking out looking. He’s not the answer to any question other than “can you strike out without swinging?” (Yes) Bellinger is not adjusting to the diet of breaking balls he is seeing. The “depth” is made up largely of AAAA guys – Farmer, Locastro, Muncy, et al. As Howard Cole wrote, the rotation depth is made up of Buehler and a bunch of guys who are really relievers. Was it predictable that the Dodgers’ rotation would end up on the DL?

    OK – so you can’t protect against the likes of Seager and Turner going down. Fair enough. But did the Braintrust do anything else this offseason other than the big salary dump to set the Dodgers up for this year?

  10. OK – so you can’t protect against the likes of Seager and Turner going down. Fair enough. But did the Braintrust do anything else this offseason other than the big salary dump to set the Dodgers up for this year?

    Not at all, I agree with that Rick.

    Taylor was never supposed to be anything so maybe we got one amazing year from him but I still believe in Christ, I hope he turns it around. Bellinger is supposed to be an upcoming star, his play is def concerning. Having no Turner or Seager just creates really bad mojo, who knows if it would be different with them back, certainly the bullpen and Kershaw injury would be the same.

  11. Sensing alot of doom and gloom guys, let’s look at the pollyana side. Once again, as terrible as it seems right now, we are STILL only 8 games out in middle of May. Kershaw, JT, Toles, Urias, Forsythe will be back sooner or later and the lineup will get a little more steady. Look at our iineup and you see alot of young guys. JT and Chase are really the only older sages in the lineup, so alot of these dudes are facing some real adversity for the first time. Let them scrap along and figure it out, we will be better suited in the long run. No front office can game plan for losing Seager for the year, and JT right before the season starts, and then losing your first call up from AAA(Toles) for an extended period of time. This is an incredibly patient front office, and they will pull the trigger like they always do when we least expect it and get some help, and once again we will be singing about how in the heck did they pull that off. Watch and wait, the sky aint falling yet.

  12. Management biggest move this past year was getting under the salary cap, most know this, but wish for something better including this fan..
    For all those hoping for Machado, or a SP or BP help via a trade – it ain’t happening.

    What is on the field today is what will be there in September because after getting under the salary cap there will be no resurfacing this year to come back under the penalties.
    For those hoping for a signing of Machado or Harper next year – that would be a first for FAZ.

    The current Dodger team looks like a ship without a rudder, but management set the 2018 ship in the direction of getting under the salary cap, hoping they could have similar results with the same players. Roberts is struggling to steer it with the plethora of AAAA players available ( after injuries and down years) but it looks pretty ugly – definitely not worth the price of admission.
    For those thinking there is still time for the 104 team to reappear, good luck wth that.

    1. 104 is not within reach. but 90 is. That’ all it might take.

      Insofar as we know, everyone except Seager will be back. .. likely sooner than later.

      I agree about trading for Machado – that would be very dumb!

      It has not been FAZ M.O. to sign big Free Agents, but most have been in their early 30’s. Harper and Machado are in their mid-to-late 20’s. I think they will be in…

  13. I have not given up on THIS year. I think some players have to return, others have to be sent back to the minors and some have to be traded.

    I would like to see this roster THIS year:

    1. Bellinger
    2. Forsythe
    3. Utley
    4. Taylor
    5. Turner
    6. Grandal
    7. Barnes
    8. Hernandez
    9. Kemp
    10. Verdugo
    11. Toles
    12. Puig
    13. Kershaw
    14. Buehler
    15. Wood
    16. Ryu
    17. Santana
    18. Stripling
    19. Stewart
    20. Urias
    21. Maeda
    22. Alexander
    23. Kohler
    24. Cingrani
    25. Jansen

    If the Dodgers can get there – they can be OK.

  14. The Dodgers just sent Brock Stewart back to OKC and brought up some guy who can throw with both arms.

    It sounds like a freakshow, that is Pat Vindette!

  15. I would take that 25 man roster of yours to battle for sure Mark, especially if everybody is healthy. Also agree about 90 wins. This division , like the NL Central, is going to be high and tight all year, nobody is going to run away and hide. We just have to hang on until our guys get back.

  16. If Headley clears Waivers, would he be short term fix in the infield?
    Always a slow starter -!he might catch fire in the second half?
    Can’t lose for the league minimum?

  17. Not many talk about the lousy pitching. Is anyone any good? The Jansen show set the table for the rest. Bullpen and starters. Right now I see our savior as Striker Buehler. He stays in the rotation. NO MATTER WHAT. Kid Gloves are off with him. ONCE AND FOR ALL. It’s his time. He should get 100 pitches each start. The bats need Turner. Obviously. He’s not THAT good but with this lineup, he is.

    1. Baseball runs in cycles. As a hitter there are times when you can square up pitch after pitch, And there are other times when you can see the fastball coming down the middle and not be able to make contact, The Dodgers will be fine and I expect this team (after JT comes back) to go on a run. We have way too much talent to play like this, But I still keep in mind Marks example of the Giants. If that’s the case we can look forward a few good years. Be Patience and no one can hurt you.

  18. Is it just me or why did they pull Stripling too early in the 6th? Yeah they got a few hits, but he was looking great. At least let him finish the 6th.

  19. Love Doc, but horrible call yanking Strip. This is all Doc, and I cant’ believe I am calling him out. Damn,,,, 4-3 and the air just went out of Dodger Stadium. I got nothing. Strip was cruising.

  20. If they lose this game, you are talking full on torches and pitchforks for Doc, Strip just had Votto shaking his head on a nasty ass breaking pitch and you pull him for match ups, He had so much left in the tank, you pull a Lasorda and ride that wave into shore. I am friggin speechless…

  21. Treating this three times through the order thing as cement dogma is tough. I mean it has merits to pull the guy, but there needs to be room to negotiate context. Stripling was rolling, and in come J .T. Chargois who immediately serves up the lead. It’s doubly not smart when you don’t actually have a good bridge guys in your bullpen.

    1. Totally agree, he was at 79 pitches and doing well. If Doc was going to yank him if someone got on why let him bat with 2 on and 2 out? Chargois has blown 3 saves now and picks up the loss, maybe he needs to go down and reset or maybe he is not 100%. The hitters showed signs of life and did not strike out as much. Baby steps at this point but Stripling pitched well and so did Stewart last night. Muncy is a scrapper but can’t wait to see JT.

  22. This season is becoming lost quick, , too many holes including Roberts.

    Our famous bullpen moves, let the pitcher hit and then pull him immediately in the following inning. Roberts does that constantly, not hitting for a guy in the top half and then not letting him go more then one or two batters.

    Like your roster Mark, but doubt we are getting close to that anytime soon.

    Again though I don’t feel positive about any facet of our game right now. We are doing everything way below average.

  23. How’s that vaunted Dodger depth working out for us? Chargois was a nice find but it’s obvious why the Twins exposed him to the waiver wire and he made it all the way to the 29th team to be claimed. Horrible roster construction and that’s on FAZ.

    I’ll take it all back if we turn it around with the same players, but if we don’t I’ll be here all year and into the off season extolling their “small minded and small market” approach and their not ready for primetime BS decisions. This is freaking LA, the second largest market in the USA. A proud franchise and one that I thought Guggenheim would invest in to make it a top notch product everyday….all day! Sadly, the shareholders will get paid and the fans will watch in misery as our vaunted depth gets us a 4th place championship trophy.

  24. Losing three straight is basically getting swept. Four straight would be absolutely pathetic. It’s already been a long season.

  25. Mark:

    Might want to write a story about Bellinger and how his shit is wearing thin with the Dodgers. Doc benches him for not hustling in SF, then says in a post game conference about players needing to make adjustments and then tonight he bunts down by two runs in the bottom of the 9th on a 3-0 count.

    That’s the worst fundamental baseball I’ve seen in a long time. It’s my gut and only that, but Doc wouldn’t look at him as he came back to the dugout and I think Doc is so tired of Bellinger not making an adjustment on the offspeed stuff and on the hands and then when he tries to bunt on a 3-0 count you’ve got to wonder what they might do with this guy. I’ll go out on a limb and say he sits Sunday……just a hunch.

  26. 3 in a row to the Reds? Let them come from behind? But of course, the Dodgers don’t come from behind.

    7 under .500, 8 games out. 24% of the season gone. 7th worst record in MLB, 4th worst in NL. The teams behind LA are mostly trying to lose. It looks like the Dodgers are trying to lose too.

  27. Today was the first game in God knows how long that I gave ZERO attention to. I didn’t watch, listen, follow gamecast, check online or on phone for score or update. Nothing. I just knew the game was over and who won because of the espn app automatically updating me after games are over.

    And I see we lost 5-3 and Chargois got the loss an Bailey is now 1-5 (meaning he was 0-5 until today). Ho hum. Looking forward to being swept by the worst team in baseball (aside from LA) tomorrow

  28. Even against my heart (I’m dodger fan since 1980) I think it’s time to let Kershaw go, it was very important to win the division and sell tickets, but at the important time, in playoffs, it has not helped much, let’s stop thinking with our hearts and start using reason … This is my humble and personal opinion!

  29. Right now… Today… The Dodgers are not mediocre, but a very bad baseball team. The evidence is they have lost series to the Marlins, Padres, and now, the Reds. From I can tell , most of the players offensive numbers are down from last year. The bullpen statistical numbers are significantly down from last year. The bottom line is that team needs to have a lot better performances across the board. There isnt a magic wand or switch available. No one player can get the team better. The Dodgers CAN get turned around….
    But I am guessing that 2017 Giants said the same thing about getting turned around, and we know didnt end so well for them.

  30. I realize Baltimore may not want to dance but tell me why going hard after Machado is so wrong? There are no surefire prospects outside maybe Ruiz so any package would not be that disabling. I think White or Alvarez, Christian Santana, Sheffield, and one more lottery ticket pitcher gets close and if Orioles want to help us financially Forsythe. A slightly bigger name replacing Santana or Sheffield if they want to make sure we stay under the LT. Machado and the return of Turner turns this season, this confidence boost would carry over into the pen and we would have a shot at our 6th division title in a row. And then as our front office always reminds us it is a crap shoot from there.

    Even in the worst case scenario we don’t make the playoffs and we don’t resign Machado. Oh well we are still in about the same position for 2019, what gives with this train of thought??

  31. My take on the Forsythe trade was that Logan would have to prove he could play in a pennant race.
    He mostly failed, though he did some nice work under greater pressure in the post-season.
    So not a great move, not an awful one by the FO. As is his nature, Mark overstates his case:-).

    Well ahead coming down the stretch in 2017, an unmotivated squad finished 14-22 (I started with their win
    against the Brews August 25, and ended with last game of season, a win against the Rocks, IIRC).

    Add the 14-22 to this year’s start at 16-23, and you have a team playing .400 baseball, a record of 30-45.
    To get to 90 wins this year, they have to go 74-49, or roughly .600. Doable? Sure. Likely? Doubt it.

  32. This loss is on Doc. You let the starting pitcher hit and then he pitches to one batter and he gets one out and then taken out. Why? Then we give up four runs. If Bellinger does not sit today then Doc has lost the team. Talk about a stupid mistake. Bunting on a 3-0 pitch. He could of done it 3-1. You must place that bunt on the line or it goes foul. Not back to the pitcher. Maybe it is time for a club house meeting. I am getting tired of the same crappy baseball every night.

  33. We have Hill today and he is the one starting pitcher I have little faith in. I hope I am wrong and he has a good game. If he does Doc will take him out after four innings.

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