The Joc Pederson Era Needs to End

Let me start this off by saying that I believe Chris Taylor is a better Centerfielder than Joc Pederson RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW!  Joc is much slower than Chris and maybe he runs better routes, but he is in no way an “elite” CF.  Chris has had little outfield experience but has become a very good LF and lets’ not forget the first catch he ever made in CF.  Joc seems to be always fighting a “slump.”  As fans, we are always hoping he gets better.  But, I think he is who we thought he was, and we should let him get away!

Look, this is a very good team, but any team can get better.  If Joc had 40 HR and a .220 batting average, I could dig it, but he has just 11 HR, is a poor baserunner and looses concentration frequently in the field and to top it all off, he is not smart or savvy! Send him to OKC like SVS and move on.  Chris Taylor needs to be the everyday CF.  Send Joc to OKC and call up Henry Ramos.

I don’t know how he will do, but the Dodgers may have another Chris Taylor on their hands with Henry Ramos…  but I think Ramos is worth a shot.  He is a 25 year-old switch hitter who, in 121 AB’s, is hitting .406 with a .460 PB% and 1.104 OPS. The dude is knocking on the door (actually he is kicking the door in) and Joc is not showing anything. Doc is loyal to his guys, but the time has come to move on. Send Joc back to OKC and let him work on his swing, just like Chris Taylor, Yasiel Puig and Henry Ramos.

Maybe Joc can do what Yasiel did when he was demoted last year.  I hope so… but I am not holding my breath.  We don’t need two all-or-nothing players in the lineup everyday (Joc and Yasmani) and Joc is the odd-man-out because of Grandal’s defensive value.  I thought this would be a breakout year for Grandal.  His BA is better but his power numbers are down and his OB% has declined.  Still, there is  a lot of time left.

Rants and Raves

  • Yadier Alvarez’ line last night: 5 IP/2 H/3 ER/6 BB/3 K – his AA ERA is 3.57.  He might need better control….. ‘ya think?
  • Is anyone still looking for regression in Chris Taylor?
  • The Natural just keeps taking what they give him.
  • If the ump refused to move last night for Utley, them he is dead wrong and should be suspended. That’s just dumb!
  • After Ryu struggled through 5 last night, the pen held fast.  Watson is good as a middle guy, not a high leverage guy.
  • Chris Freakin’ Hatcher?  Hopefully knows something we don’t!
  • Great story about Dennis Santana

 

Posted by Mark Timmons

We started LA Dodger Talk in 2001. This site is about giving another perspective outside of the average day-to-day reporting. We don't do game recaps or such things -- lots of sites do that well. I value sabermetrics, but don't think they are the "end-all-be-all.". This is where you should start your day as a Dodger Fan. Welcome! We'd like to hear your voice.

This article has 73 Comments

  1. I know the return of Adrian has probably been discussed a good deal here but I would like to know how everyone feels about it now that it has become very close. In my opinion to take Bellinger out of the lineup would be like taking a lot of the fire from the team. I also feel that change for the sake of change is not good. Bellinger is hitting better than I think Adrian can hit at this point in his career. This change is not good in my opinion. Not for any games. Bellinger does not need the rest that Roberts thinks he needs. So goes Bellinger, so goes the Dodgers.

    1. If A-Gon is healthy and productive, he should play. Cody goes to LF. Cody is better at 1B, but Adrian’s bat could be huge… if he is healthy.

  2. Sorry, I should have also commented on todays post. I agree with Mr. Timmons that Joc should return to Oklahoma City to find his swing and I also think that Ramos should have an opportunity at some point. Chris Taylor has done done an outstanding job and should remain in the lineup in my opinion.

    1. Some sentiment to putting Agon on first, Bellinger to LF, Taylor to CF, and Joc to OKC…
      Another option is Bellinger to LF, Taylor to second, Forshite to the bench. Other options also. General consensus is Agon has more to offer than Joc or Forshite.

    1. Six or seven, maybe fifth if he’s doing well… I would put Puig behind Bellinger, then Agon- the catcher, then either Joc or For-shit and the pitcher.

        1. It will be. He has an $8 MM option for next year, with a $1 MM buyout. Even FAZ isn’t crazy enough to pay him $8 MM next year, but some of the people here think so because Timmons said so….

          1. Timmons also said Barnes would be very good, that Bellinger was ready, that FAZ were geniuses, that the rotation would be a strength of the team and that the Dodgers would go to the World Series this year. Where did you stand on all of that? Don’t make me look it up!

          2. I too believe that this is all of Forsyth. If FAZ is truly genius they will not spend 8MM on him with so many other options.

  3. Don’t worry Cody and Chris will both be in the line up. The point is that we would be better with Chris in center, Cody in left and Adrian at first. I know Cody is a better defensive first baseman than Adrian who is good and Cody seems to hit better at first. But we will need a productive Adrian through the playoffs. In the series Adrian would DH. This would make our amazing offense even better.

  4. I see Adrian hitting behind Cody for protection and not to clog up the bases for the speed we have at the top.

    1. I agree with Jonah putting Adrian down in the lineup exactly for the reason you stated. Speed. Agon is extremely slow.

    2. I agree with Jonah putting Adrian down in the lineup exactly for the reason you stated. Speed. Agon is extremely slow.

      1. Our future at catcher is Kay Bear! Will Smith is good too, but Kay Bear was “special” written all over him.

        We have another year of Barnes and Grandal. I like both. At the time the Dodgers traded for them, I said so and many disagreed with me.

        Lots of Dodger fans dislike Grandal, but I guarantee 3/4 of the GM’s in baseball will be lined up if he goes on the market. He is still TOP 10, maybe TOP 6 in baseball.

        I said in Spring Training that Cody was ready… and he was. I would love to have his defense and speed at 1B, but if A-Gon is healthy, he has to play. Maybe his decline was from injury more than declining skills.

        With Logan at 2B, the Dodgers have a great defensive infield. I also don’t get the dislike of Logan. In all of baseball, among 2B with 250 or more AB’s, Logan Forsythe is #6 in OB%.

        DJ LeMahieu (last year’s batting champ) is hitting .310 with a .372 OB% while Forsythe is hitting .236 with a .363 OB%. Do not underestimate Logan’s value to this team!

        1. Mark

          Forsythe hasn’t hit righties at all this year, and there are far to many rightie pitchers in baseball, to carry an everyday player in the line up, that doesn’t hit righties at all.

          Forsythe seems like he is a sure handed defensive player, but he is not a defensive savant, so that is not a reason, to have him in the line up everyday, when he isn’t contributing on offense, much at all.

          Taylor will play second just as well as Forsythe would, if he is playing there, most of the time, next year.

          And Taylor is younger, and he would be a great addition to are mostly all young infield.

          And I don’t think Roberts is doing any favors for Forsythe, by hitting him, fifth.

          But Forsythe does hit lefties much better, then he hits righties, so his bat against lefties in the post season, might be valuable, for the team.

  5. Totally agree on joc. Grandal is very streaky. He goes into deep slumps but also can get red hot! He and Barnes are a terrific catching tandem. I think our biggest deficiency is second base with Forsyth. Apparently Taylor is not the answer defensively. I don’t know that I am just getting that vibe from posters. Forsyth may be solid defensively but he definitely has no business in the fifth spot of the batting order. How about Barnes at second? Might have to try the wild horse another spot in batting order as teams are not pitching to him now. Against lefties: Taylor cf, seager, turner , bellinger 1b, Hernandez cf-lf, Barnes c, puig, Forsyth the strikeout king. Against right handlers: Taylor cf, Seager, turner,bellinger left, Gonzalez first, grandal, utley, puig

  6. I’ve never agreed more with a post then this one! Joc must be a good person, but does not help this team.

    Puig has earned at least a shot to move up, Agon is the last person we want running in front of the wild horse. Like Mark, I agree Agon should bat 6th for aging and for being a left handed behind Bells does not work.

    Taylor
    Seager
    Turner
    Bellinger
    Puig
    Agon
    Grandal
    Forsythe

    Hell, try the Ramos kid out until Agon returns, just end the Joc era already, it’s been way to long

  7. Here’s why Cody shouldn’t move to LF: his splits:
    1B – .309 (BA), .385 (OPB), .713 (SLG), 1.098 (OPS)
    LF – .202, .276, .430, .706

    Leave Cody at 1B. Let Gonzalez come off of the bench.

    Joc isn’t the only regular having a bad season. What about Forsythe?
    Forsythe: .236, .363. .312, .675
    Joc: .219, .333, .426, .759

    Really – a .312 SLG.?

    1. When he moved to 4th in the lineup, is the same time he moved to first. When he played LF, he hit all over the lineup when called up. I think batting order had more to do with it.

      Forsythe is not doing well, but replacing Joc with an Agon will hopefully impact the team, if Agon shows up of course. Bat Forsythe 8th.

      1. Exactly. Those stats are quite misleading as Belly hasn’t played LF in a long long time.

        If he was playing both positions consistently for the last 8 weeks, then those stats would have some relevance. But right now? Meaningless

    2. Rick

      When Cody was playing in left field, it was also his first two months, or less, in the majors, and he was just learning to adjust, so I don’t know if his stats while he was playing in left, are a true reflection, of where he was playing, or they were more a reflection of him, just learning to adjust, to major league pitching.

      And when he has played in leftfield, he didn’t look uncomfortable at all on defense, so I don’t see that, as any connection, with his hitting.

  8. Mark

    If they are going to have Taylor play centerfield, he needs to start playing it, everyday now.

    Because that will give him more experience in center, before the post season begins.

    He needs to get use to playing in the different stadiums that we will be playing in, until the end of the regular season.

    I know Grandal hasn’t been hitting as well lately, but he did work hard in the off season, and he is doing much better this year, and he is throwing out runners better too, so I give him credit for that.

    I like Barnes a lot too, but we don’t know for sure, how well he will hit against rightie pitchers, since he doesn’t play or hit against righties, to much.

    And we don’t know how well he will hold up, playing everyday, but I agree, he is a player!

    I just don’t understand why Roberts is hitting Joc and Forsythe behind Cody, in the line up.

    I would bat them seventh, like where Roberts batted Chase, last night.

    And I do think Chase is a much better option against righties, then Forsythe is..

    To Cody’s credit, having these weak hitters hitting behind him, hasn’t effected his hitting, because he is still hitting, and hitting in runs.

    And I do think we are seeing a better Chase this year, at this point in the season, because he has not over played to much, and wore himself out.

    And Chase has made a pretty good adjustment, coming off the bench, so I think Roberts should give him, more playing time, against righties.

    Because I think Forsythe has been given more then a chance, to hit righties this year, and he is still not hitting rigthies, at all!

    And I don’t think Forsythe and Joc, trying to over work their counts, is helping them hit any better, so I think they need to change their strategy, and stop watching good pitches go by.

    They need to attack any good pitches that they get, instead of waiting until they have two strikes, and become easy outs, for pitchers!

    1. I agree about Utley MJ, he has been making solid contact, and deserves a few more starts against RHP. His defense is still good and he’s an excellent base runner. Forsythe has trouble with a hard slider from RHP just like Kike and neither should face them until they adjust their swings.

      Joc spends more time out of the box than in it while hitting and still does not seem ready when the pitch is thrown. He has become an easy out and either pops up or rolls over for a ground ball to 1st or 2nd unless he is just missing the pitch completely. He is trying to pull everything and seems in a deep mental funk right now.

  9. If Agon and Ethier hit when they return there will be no need for Joc on a playoff roster. Eithier can pinch hit and play corner OF moving CT3 to CF or Cody to LF when Agon plays in the field. I agree Joc looks completely lost and out of sync with his swing. His AB’s are woeful and non-competitive.

    He’s probably also looking at a trade in the off season for more puzzle pieces to improve depth. Joc, Kazmir, BMac, maybe Ryu might be on the trading block in the off season just to deepen the farm and to further complete the plan by FAZ to acquire MLB ready depth at nearly every position.

  10. I think we all agree we have a better option than Joc. Taylor can play second. There is no question about that. It is just a question where you want to put everyone. Utley is looking pretty good to me. Platoon Utley and Forsythe. Put Agon on first. Taylor goes to center and Bellinger to left. Taylor and Bellinger are going to play regardless. Let Either be the DH and pinch hitter, if he comes back strong.

    I would never move Puig from batting 8th. Why mess with success. Grandal should bat 7th and Agon 6th. Let the two slow runners bat at the end of the line up.

    I would like to see Ramos have an opportunity. I hope they call him up in Sept.

    Hatcher has been reinstated. I hope he is on a short lease. Let him throw about four times. If no good, let’s end it. If good, let him throw some more. Put him in high leverage situations. It may cost us a game or two, but we need to know.

    1. Idahoal

      With the point you made, and others have made, about our slow runners, hitting at the back of the lineup, I was thinking, maybe it would be better, to hit Puig ninth, and hit our pitchers eighth.

      This way, Puig would be a second lead off hitter in our line up, and then he wouldn’t be blocked, by any slow runners, that are hitting, or running, in front of him.

      And Puig should not feel any more pressure hitting ninth, then he feels, hitting eighth, like he has, most of the year.

      But I am still a little leary about moving Puig out of the eighth position, and trying to over analyze, the line up, and possible messing, with Puig’s, current success.

  11. I agree with you Mark. If Utley asked the ump to move and he was thrown out for that reason, the ump should be suspended. It was wierd. It looked like they were just having a conversation. It is going to be the interesting today to find out what really happened.

    1. I really can’t understand this fixation on Puig hitting 8th. I would rather he hit 5th or 6th, and I would give him a try in CF, too.

      1. I agree Jonah, there is a lot of concern to moving Puig but none to moving Cody or Chris or others. Strange. If you don’t want to mess with success then don’t change the current lineup. We will see what the W/L record is with these changes.

        1. Have you noticed how, when the GM or Manager does something, most posters immediately latch on to it as a great idea and really harass any posters that disagree with them? Then when the GM or Manager gets around to changing his mind and makes a counter move, once again most posters think it’s a great move and completely forget they used to be against it. That is the definition of a follower.

          1. It’s called credibility. When leadership has it, then decisions made are accepted, especially is there is a logical and convincing foundation for that decision.

            You know what I notice? I notice some people tend to take an opposing position in spite of nigh overwhelming evidence that they’re wrong simply to be a contrarian; that somehow doing so makes them an independent thinker, more objective ….a realist. Actually, the opposite is true. Folks who doggedly hold on to a discredited position are like flat Earthers.

          2. Puig has had problems for a long time, hitting in the clutch, especially at the top of the line up.

            Because he puts to much pressure on himself, and he often over swings, because of this.

            And Roberts has experimented with Puig, higher in the line up at times this year, but when Puig has been moved up in the line up, he hasn’t been able to produce, like he has, hitting eighth.

            It isn’t like Roberts, hasn’t tried that!

          3. Puig is not the same hitter he was in the past. Less anxious and isn’t pressing as much. He’s won some battles in clutch situations the second half of this season and to think he can only do that in the 8 hole is ridiculous. I hate seeing innings or games end with Puig on deck because Utley, Forsythe, Grandal, or Joc are getting more AB’s.

            If it’s not broke don’t fix it, right? Well, the 5 hole is broke. I’d rather see Forsythe drawing walks there than what Joc is doing, but I’d rather see Puig there and I find out now if he can handle it or not.

      2. Hitting Puig 8th seems like a confortable place in the order with him this year since he has the highest BA in that position. I would not hit him 5th since he is only hitting .033(1-30).

  12. I think jonah and package are quite the duo. Here are some others.
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    Andy
    Situation comedy popular in the United States from the 1920s through the 1950s.
    Ant
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    Dec
    Anthony McPartlin and Declan Donnelly, popular presenters of light entertainment television programmes in the UK.
    Anthony
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    and
    Ben
    The Flower Pot Men.
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    Ted
    From the movie ‘Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure’
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    Tool Company
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    Major figure in The Book of Ruth in the Old Testament of the Bible. Boaz is Ruth’s second husband.
    Bob
    and
    Ray
    American comedy duo from the 50s and 60s
    Bogart
    and
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    1940’s movie duo and married couple
    Bonnie
    and
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    Brahms
    and
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    Cockney rhyming slang for intoxicated
    Brooks
    and
    Dunn
    Singers
    Bubble
    and
    Squeak
    Potatoes and scallions [onions]
    Burns
    and
    Allen
    Burton
    and
    Taylor
    Butch Cassidy
    and
    The Sundance Kid
    Western
    Cagney
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    Cain
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    Captain
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    1970’s Band that sang “Love Will Keep Us Together”
    Castor
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    Celestial stars which are named after the twin sons of Zeus and Leda. Both Stars in the constellation Gemini.
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    Classic Feuding families from USA
    Hollywood
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    The most famous intersection in Hollywood
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    Jack
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    Neighbours Australian soap fame. Kylie Minogue and Jason Donovan. Played characters Charlene Mitchell and Scott Robinson.
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    Disney dogs who romantically shared a plate of spaghetti
    Lancelot
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    Laurel
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    TV show
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    Lenny
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    Lewis
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    Lilo
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    Little
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    Comedy Duo
    Live
    and
    Let Die
    Song by Wings from the James Bond movie of the same name.
    Lone Ranger
    and
    Tonto
    Lucy
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    Charlie Brown
    Lucy
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    Ricky/Desi
    Mario
    and
    Luigi
    From the video game Mario Brothers
    Marks
    and
    Spencer
    High street retailer
    Mary Kate
    and
    Ashley
    The Olsen twins
    Mason
    and
    Dixon
    Masters
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    Johnson
    Mickey
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    Minnie
    Cartoon
    Morecambe
    and
    Wise
    British comedian duo
    Mork
    and
    Mindy
    TV Show
    Mutt
    and
    Jeff
    Mutt and Jeff was an American newspaper comic strip, created by Bud Fisher that ran from November 15, 1907 to 1982.
    Oscar
    and
    Felix
    The Odd Couple – played by Jack Klugman & Tony Randall on TV, Walter Matthau & Jack Lemmon in film.
    Ozzie
    and
    Harriet
    Parsley
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    Thyme
    Peaches
    and
    Cream
    Penn
    and
    Teller
    Magicians
    Peters
    and
    Lee
    A successful British folk/pop duo of the 1970s, comprising Lennie Peters and Dianne Lee.
    Pinky
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    The Brain
    Cartoon characters who have starred in the American animated television series Steven Spielberg Presents Animaniacs, Steven Spielberg Presents Pinky and the Brain, and Steven Spielberg Presents Pinky, Elmyra & the Brain.
    Pinky
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    Perky
    A children’s television series first seen on the BBC in 1957.
    Popeye
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    Olive Oyl
    Porgy
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    Posh
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    Procter
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    Punch
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    Judy
    Classic beach puppet entertainment which was suprisingly violent
    Ren
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    Stimpy
    Rhubarb
    and
    Custard
    Richard
    and
    Judy
    British TV presenters
    Rocky
    and
    Bullwinkle
    Rodgers
    and
    Hammerstein
    Rod Hull
    and
    Emu
    Comedy Show ’70’s
    Romeo
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    Juliet
    Romulus
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    Remus
    Twins brothers who were the founders of Rome
    Rosencrantz
    and
    Guildenstern
    Sage
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    Onion
    Salt
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    Pepper
    Their central role in western cuisine dates back to the court of Louis XIV, where salt was thought to whet the appetite and pepper was the only spice not considered vulgar.
    Samson
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    Delilah
    Sears
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    Roebuck
    An American mid-range chain of international department stores, founded by Richard Sears and Alvah Roebuck.
    Siegfried
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    Roy
    Famous Las Vegas stage show with their white tigers
    Simon
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    Simon
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    Publishing Company
    Siskel
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    Ebert
    Movie Reviewing Duo
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    Wesson
    Gun Maker
    Sonny
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    Cher
    1960’s singing duo and 1970’s variety show couple
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    Patrick
    Stanley
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    Starsky
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    US cop show
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    Jerry Stiller and Anne Meara, a husband and wife comedy team, were a big hit in the 1960s and ’70s. Parents of comedian Ben Stiller.
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    Tippeecanoe
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    Tracey
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    Cressida
    Tweedledum
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    From Alice in Wonderland
    Waldorf
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    Muppet show!!
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    TV Sitcom
    William
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    Cousins who married and jointly ruled as king and queen of England from the Stewart dynasty
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    Zag

  13. I am hopeful that posters here can/will express intelligent, informed opinions without personalizing things or being rude to others who don’t share their opinions. That has largely been what has occurred thus far; please don’t revert to name calling, fun making, rudeness, etc.

  14. Yes, I think we are starting to push the envelope.

    Let’s disagree without being disagreeable.

    What Rick said!

  15. Well said Dodgerrick. Posters on this board are not followers. They are very capable of thinking for themselves. We do it without being nasty.

  16. The ball is flying out today and Perdomo is a ground ball pitcher. The Dodgers are trying to hit the ball in the air, which will work but you have to let the ball get deep and stay behind it against this type of pitcher. Maeda is a fly ball pitcher and he will have to mix his pitches up better and the outfielders are already getting a workout after 2 innings.

  17. Give Maeda credit, he has settled down nicely and is piling up the K’s and keeping his pitch count down, he may go 7 innings today.

  18. Looks like I spoke to soon as another fly ball sneaked out to LF for a 2nd 2 run HR for Spangenberg and after a walk Roberts had seen enough of Maeda today and goes to the pen. At least it’s not Hatcher coming in.

  19. Baseball America has Grandal top 3 defensive catchers in the league. That surprised me. I’m not convinced AGon is more than a .250 hitter right now. I don’t know what it will accomplish to insert him in the lineup on a regular basis. Unless he shows he can drive the ball again, he should be a bench player or occasional platoon player. Still a good guy to have around though. Who goes down? Pederson?

  20. 1. The list was too long.
    2. I didn’t cherry pick the list to find negative duos. It is merely famous duos, all of them.

  21. Mark, I’m beginning to think you’re right about Joc. Even with my limited gray matter I could figure out that it’s not a good idea to keep hitting ground balls into the shift. I would think that by now Joc would have figured out that by cutting down on his swing, and trying to hit the ball up the middle, would result in hits all over the field, depending on how he was pitched. But what do I know? Maybe Joc is just a misunderstood genius.

    I don’t know anything about Dennis Santana, but reading that piece from TBLA reminds me about Drew Jackson. I remember that when he was acquired from Seattle during the spring, I read that he had a very powerful arm. Having looked at his underwhelming minor league hitting stats, I have wondered whether or not the Dodgers have considered converting him to a pitcher. He’s still young at 24, and it would appear that he probably has the aptitude to make a change given that he’s a Stanford graduate. Anybody know if he’s being considered as a candidate for a change, since it doesn’t appear that even with his power, that he’ll ever be much of a hitting prospect.

    I have no comment about Henry Ramos, since other than numbers I don’t have a clue as to what kind of prospect he is, nor anything about his readiness to compete at the MLB level at this time.

    Regarding the Hatcher move, and the demotion of Kyle Farmer, I couldn’t really understand the reasoning behind it. Maybe it’s just temporary to provide some additional pitching before rosters are expanded in September. I liked the idea of carrying a third catcher who also has the flexibility to play the infield, especially since Farmer showed poise at the plate at bat after at bat. I like having the option of using one of the catchers off the bench to hit without having to worry about one of them getting hurt late in a game. But maybe it’s temporary, and that the Dodgers have the intention of carrying a third catcher during the playoffs. Or maybe Hatcher has undergone a transformation that none of us is aware of. Since I trust FAZ, I have to believe that there is something perfectly plausible in their thinking.

    I don’t know what Agon will offer in the final month+, but with their commanding lead in the standings, and home field advantage in every playoff series, including the WS, virtually assured, the Dodgers have room to experiment. If anything, should the Dodgers manage to get to the WS, Agon, if he is performing well with the bat would be a really good choice to DH in the AL park. And even in NL parks, a lively Agon bat would be welcome, assuming he can play adequate defense at 1B with Bellinger shifting to LF and Taylor to CF. The only thing that I worry about is Agon clogging the bases with his sloth-like speed (although, “speed” is a misnomer).

  22. One other thing about Farmer being sent down. It’s possible that the Dodgers want him to get regular playing time over the next few weeks, rather than spending his time mostly on the Dodgers bench. Might as well keep himself sharp. I still think he could be a valuable piece in the postseason.

      1. Buehler struck out five hitters today, in two innings, to get his first save, for the season.

        He threw 22 strikes, and eleven strikes were swing and misses.

        Our secret weapon for the post season, we now have a very good, set up guy!

  23. Wow, I just logged on and saw some long post with nearly 5000 words by Bluto.

    Dude. WTF was that?? Meanwhile (and more importantly), if we go 26-19 the rest of the way, we set the all time NL wins record

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