Starting Pitching is Overvalued…

This article has 107 Comments

1. I agree with almost everything you say Mark. Ryu is a pitcher and not a thrower. He can survive with a slower fastball. Wood and Stripling need to be in the pen. Right now we need two starters. Urias will be one. Jurrjens or Oaks will be the other. My bet is it will be Jurrjens. They always go with the experience over youth.
   The one that still makes me mad is Hill. We signed a 37 year old to a 3 year contract with blister problems. Dumb.
   They have decisions to make when some come off the DL. Dayton for Hatcher. Segedin for SVS. Segedin can play first and left field. Taylor can play center. You have to keep those two as bench players. Now my two problem children. Joc and Puig. Those two are a disappointment to me. I think you have to keep running them out there, If they continue on the path they are on we will see Bellinger and Verdugo. Toles needs to play every day.

   1. I think Hill will be fine. It’s a blister. Someone can figure this out.
      –
      Ryu has been at 91 MPH a few times. I think he can be effective. People need to remember he has been out 2 years. It takes time…
      –
      Actually, Masterson has had the best stuff between him and Jurrjens, but Oaks has been nails.

   2. It’ll be Wood or Stripling as a starter for now.

      They won’t make a 40 man change unless they are forced to, or until they are able to move Kazmir to the 60.

2. One DL I forgot is Forsyhe. I would cut Utley. I know that is not popular, but he is batting under 100. He is a great guy and great player, but h has lost it. If no one picks him up, I would assign him as a roving infield instructor.

   1. Chase is not doing this for the money. I believe that if he has lost it, he is the type of guy who will walk away. The next two weeks should prove to be interesting.

3. I am not sure about Hill. I saw an interview and he said rest is the only cure. That is fine, but he is a curve ball pitcher. That will put a lot of stress on the finger and more blisters.

   1. I heard that Hill is experimenting with a different grip on his curve ball. That might solve the blister issue but it might reduce the spin he now has.
      .
      When he finally pitched for the Dodgers last year he was able to pitch as a guess more than 10 games. After resting that middle finger this winter, it is surprising that it heated up so quickly this season.

      1. I’m not a pitcher and I didn’t stay at Holiday Inn Express last night but …

         In my limited experience with blisters–weekend yard work– rest heals but does not prevent a blister. Repeated small doses of the activity causing the blister will many times toughen the skin.

         I would try starting Hill in the bullpen. One or two inning stretches to toughen up the skin, then stretch him out.

         1. That’s what I think too.
            –
            I think a winter of rest was actually bad. He should have been pouring concrete!

            1. Actually from what I have read about blisters, and the skin that blisters form on, and the skin below, you don’t really want to build up a callus.

               And wouldn’t you think after all last year, Hill would have done that, by now?

               Nolan Ryan use to slice off his top layer of his skin, where blisters formed on his hand, and that worked for him.

               And from what I read about the second layer of the skin, just below the top skin, blisters don’t form on that layer of skin, below the top skin, so what worked for Ryan, makes a lot of sense.

               I believe he used a surgeons, scalpel, to slice the top skin off.

   2. Idahoal

      Hill said that the blister he had last year, was much bigger then any blister, he had ever had, and he also said then, that the off season, would be the answer to his problems, because it would heal his big blister or sore, he had.

      And I guess the front office took him for his word, on that.

      But even Mark said, that Hill primarily will be throwing mostly curves now, so he is going to have to deal with this problem.

      Because Mark said that Hill never use to throw so many curves that much before, so he didn’t know for sure, that the off season, would heal it for good.

      And Mark was just using his common sense about this, and that is why I expect more, from the front office, about this.

4. I still believe that Kasmir will bounce back. I haven’t read anything that says his hip tightness is arthritic or irreversible.
   .
   McCarthy’s stuff is impressive. I love that he is earning his paycheck as too many have repeatedly commented that signing him was an example of FAZ wasting money that could have been better used elsewhere.
   .
   I have liked Stewart for quite awhile now and look forward to see what he will do in May.
   .
   Oaks could be a good #5 and be an innings eater. It would be great if he were more than that.
   .
   Jurrjens briefly showed that he has the stuff to be a #2 but that was a few years ago. If he is pitching well now, why not give him the ball until he regresses if he does.
   .
   Between Dixon, SVS, Segeden, and Thompson, it seems like Dixon needs to get a chance. If Joc goes on the 10 day DL, why not showcase Puig in CF. It might add to his trade value. While Joc is out, maybe Toles, Kike’, and Puig could be the outfield.

   1. Bum

      Remember it is still early.

5. Yeah, I would like to start hearing about the “better way” from the complainers.
   .
   We all know 7 inning studs would be welcome and .300 BA, 30 hr, 100 RBI two-way players would also be nice. But where were those guys for FAZ to pick up at less than the cost of Denali XL? Can’t believe Mark doesn’t have butt warmers though.
   .
   Even last season’s 20/20 hindsight FAZ blooper, J.A. Happ, is now at sickbay, with FOREARM inflamation, replaced by long-time favorite Matt Latos. Happ’s rotation mate 24 yr old Aaron Sanchez is also on the shelf with blisters. Seems like pitcher injuries can happen to ANYONE!
   .
   Maybe there is something to the FAZ pitcher DEPTH plan. Make that the whole organization DEPTH plan.
   .
   https://jaysjournal.com/2017/04/22/blue-jays-j-happ-suffers-setback-20-pitch-side-session/

   1. And please, no DeLeon and Peraza for Hamels trade scenerios, like some delusional posters insist on. LSD is a killer!
      .
      Anybody noticed this comparison?
      .
      Hamels, 33 yrs old, 23.5M salary, signed through 2019
      .
      2016, 200 IP, 3.32 ERA
      2017, 26 IP, 2.77 ERA
      .
      Jerad Eickhoff, 26 yrs old, 552K salary, controlled through 2021
      .
      2016, 197 IP, 3.65 ERA
      2017, 24 IP, 2.55 ERA
      .
      Eickhoff is one of the FIVE players the Phils received from Texas.

      1. Plus catching prospect Jorge Alfaro the Phils #3 prospect who is hitting very well at AAA, OF Nick Williams their #4 prospect who is hitting better at AAA than he did last year, and Jake Thompson who is struggling at AAA after being called up last year. The fifth, Alec Asher, was just traded to Baltimore for cash or player to be named. I do not think the Phillies are upset about the trade, and I do not think the Rangers are upset. I think this will work out for both teams.

   2. Boxout

      Most pitchers don’t throw curves for their primary pitch, so that pitcher’s blister, is not the same problem that Hill, is going to have to deal with.

6. Looking at the 40 man roster a move would have to be made to bring up any of the 3 starters mentioned above. Joe Gunkel is the obvious candidate unless Ethier or Kazmir is moved to the 60 day DL. My gut is Wood gets another start and he is really just getting stretched out and Maeda gets another start as well then a decision is made. They are trying all sorts of things with Hill and if successful that would help a ton.
   –
   What to do if Joc goes to the DL? Thompson can handle CF but has yet to have a hit this year. If Toles can handle CF maybe he slides over and Puig has done it in the past. Kike can play there for now or bring Eibner back but Bellinger would look good there, arbitration clock or not. AC posted a great link yesterday that bringing a first year player up before June 1st could make them ‘Super Two’s’ with 3 years of arbitration control instead of 4. I don’t think it makes sense to call up a guy early and start the clock if they won’t be everyday players and this is just a short term situation until Joc is healthy and he may just need a few days.
   –
   Huge test for Ryu today and the Giants are reeling. He can keep them off balance with breaking stuff and spot the fastball low in the zone and gut out a win if the bats give him 4 or 5 runs to work with. Kershaw going tomorrow means the bullpen can be used early if needed and Roberts will go all out for the win and Jansen could come in for more than 3 outs.

   1. From my POV I would play Taylor in center before I would call up Thompson. Thompson is struggling at this point.

   2. From my POV I would play Taylor in center before I would call up Thompson.

7. Ok, I guess the math was too much for me this morning causing duplicate posts!

   1. You can say that again.

8. Only problem is Taylor is playing 2B with Forsythe out along with Utley. SVS can still split LF with Toles and Kike has more experience in CF. I agree there are better options than calling up Thompson until he starts hitting. I have heard nothing about when Gutierrez is returning from the DL. Sliding Puig over puts SVS in RF and weakens the defense in 2 spots. Puig was ok there and can cover a lot of ground but the routes are different. With more time there he would be a good center fielder but he is great as a RF.

   1. Gutierrez was hit on elbow by a pitch this weekend in Arizona. IIRC they were planning to rest him a couple days then re-evaluate. Seemed like he was about ready to return

      1. Here’s and injury update from True Blue LA

         http://www.truebluela.com/2017/4/23/15398384/rich-hill-grant-dayton-franklin-gutierrez-dodgers-injury-notes

         Looks like end of week may be new target date

9. What kind of gas mileage are you getting? I think I have that same twin turbo Ecoboost engine in the Ford Flex I just bought used and I’m average 13.5….something seriously wrong.

   I’m fond of asking the naysayers what their VAS, or Viable Alternative Strategy is. “So…you’d rather have Greinke right now?” “Do you still think signing Samardzija was a good idea?” “Ok….if not Hill or Maeda then who?”

   That usually ends the conversation.

   1. Hisashi Iwakuma off to a bad start for 2017.
      .
      I was hoping the Dodgers would sign Scherzer a few years ago. The Nats gave him a back loaded contract and a front loaded contract with an opt out should have talked him into playing in the West. That would have given the Dodgers a couple of years of Kershaw, Greinke, and Scherzer.

      1. It is probably my mentality, or lack thereof, but I am way against backloaded contracts and hope that the Dodgers do not ever fall into that long term trap. Under McCourt they were starting to go there. I am glad we seem to be past that. It is a bad practice for long term success.

      2. Bum

         I remember you mentioning Scherzer.

         And I remember you talking about the opt out, and back loading his contract.

         Dodger patch had the same type of idea that you had, about signing Cueto too.

         And actually, both you and Dodger patch, seem to have had a smarter way, to fill our rotation with another quality pitcher, without having to make a long contract agreement, so our young pitchers, wouldn’t be blocked.

         And neither one of you, have the info the front office has, or the experience they have either.

      3. Since MLB contracts are guaranteed, what is the real difference (other than cash flow for the team) when it comes to front or back loaded?

   2. I get 15.8-16.5 in the city and 21 to 22 on the road, but I learned early on to use only Premium fuel. When it was new, I drove to Myrtle Beach and back with 5 people and luggage. I ran regular and the E85 and it ran like crap and got 15.5 MPG. I used Premium on the way back and got 21.5 (that’s at 80 MPH). My oil is clean after 7,000 miles (I use Synthetic) and it idles and runs smooth. I have only replaced the tires – nothing else, no tuneup and no brakes at 78K.

10. Mark

    I think what upset me about Hill, is that I showed faith in the front office with his signing, because I thought he had more upside, then the other pitchers they signed.

    And when he couldn’t pitch that far in his last start, the Dodgers went straight to saying, Hill can be used in the bullpen very quickly, after that game.

    So I thought there has to be more with Hill, that we don’t know.

    And he never pitched well in spring training before his first start, either.

    And that didn’t worry me, but to say he can be used in the pen, right after his first game, made me lose faith, with this signing, and made me wonder, if there was more to this.

    Why did they jump to that, so quickly?

    1. He might have to pitch out of the pen for a while to build up the callous, but he will back in the rotation too.

       1. I think that is exactly what they are talking about. Build up the callouses over fewer innings and longer time until he is ready to go 6+ innings. I did not get that this was being considered as a permanent move.

11. A bitcher’s reply: Stop being fixated on 100 pitches or 150 innings and start developing starting pitchers to pitch 9 innings. I would start with college kids only, and only those who are front line, Friday pitchers. Forget high school kids. It takes too long for them mature. No pitcher younger than 21 will be drafted. Friday college pitchers, I think, are supposed to complete games. Once drafted, they continue to pitch once a week and are only taken out when they suck. At the second year, they go every 5 days, with 7 innings the goal. The third year, the same with 9 innings the goal. This would be an organizational thing starting with rookie ball. Don’t even think about pitch counts. Pitch counts don’t matter; getting hitters out into the 8th inning matters. If arms blow, so be it. After one TJ, you are on probation, and there is no 2d TJ for the organization. Let someone else deal with it. The pitch count is the worst thing that has happened to starting pitchers since lowering the mound. All teams, including ours , have starters whose goal it is to pitch to 100, not to win and complete games. It stinks.

    1. So, Kershaw and Urias would not be on the team? BTW, Kershaw is a once-a-generation talent.
       –
       I agree on the underlying premise of drafting fewer HS players, but I think some flexibility is needed for pitchers like Kershaw and Urias.
       –
       Insofar as the pitch counts, I have no opinion…

12. White was so-so yesterday. Lots of balls. Sborz got lit up at AA.

13. Wow – what a straw man argument. Are you trying to say that during the life of his contract, Brandon McCarthy has provided more value per dollar than the others on your list?
    Kershaw
    2016 – 149 IP, 97 H, 11 BB, 172 K, 12 – 4, 1.69, .72, $34.6MM
    2015 – 233 IP, 163 H, 42 BB, 301 K, 16 – 7 , 2.13, .88, $32.6MM
    Lester
    2016 – 203 IP, 154 H, 52 BB, 197 K, 19 – 5 , 2.44, 1.02, $25MM
    2015 – 205 IP, 183 H, 47 BB, 207 K, 11 – 12, 3.34, 1.12, $25MM
    Greinke
    2016 – 159 IP, 161 H, 41 BB, 134 K, 13 – 7, 4.37, 1.27, $34MM
    2015 – 222 IP, 148 H, 40 BB, 200 K, 19 – 3, 1.66, .84, $25MM
    Strasburg
    2016 – 148 IP, 119 H, 44 BB, 183 K, 15 – 4, 3.60, 1.10, $10.4MM
    2015 – 127 IP, 115 H, 26 BB, 155 K, 11 – 7, 3.46, 1.11, $7.4MM
    Hamels
    2016 – 201 IP, 185 H, 77 BB, 200 K, 15 – 5, 3.32, 1.31, $23.5MM
    2015 – 212 IP, 190 H, 65 BB, 212 K, 13 – 8, 3.65, 1.23, $23.5MM
    McCarthy
    2016 – 40 IP, 29 H, 26 BB, 44 K, 2 -3, 4.95, 1.38, $12.5MM
    2015 – 23 IP, 24 H, 4 BB, 29 K, 3 – 0, 5.87, 1.22, $12.5MM
    –
    And if it’s so dumb not to sign pitchers for more than $48MM, what about Kershaw? Didn’t Lester help get the Cubs to and through the Series? Do they get there without him? Do the Rangers make the post-season without Hamels? The Dodgers got 6 innings from their starters 66 times in 2016 and 102 in 2015 – do you think that Zach Greinke’s absence has anything to do with that?
    –
    Max Scherzer is signed for about $200MM – is that a bad deal? Is it possible to sign a pitcher for big money and have it work out for the team?
    –
    On the other hand, have the Dodgers really gotten value for the bulk of their “old and infirm” pitchers? I think not.

    1. Scherzer is one of the few good deals. McCarthy’s deal in based upon what he is making this year or you could say that he is making $36 million THIS year.

       1. You could say that only if you were a fool.

14. There are two ways of looking at value; in terms of pricing, and in terms of ability/success. It is clear to me that Friedman was referring to value in terms of pricing. It is somewhat incredulous that some would think that Friedman was actually referring to starting pitching and its influence on winning as to being overvalued. IMO, Friedman was saying that the price for that starting pitching is over-valued. Is he wrong? There are 11 players currently with an annual salary at $25M or more, and 8 are pitchers; Greinke, Price, Kershaw, Scherzer, Verlander, Lester, Hernandez, and Strasburg. Of those pitchers, only four have WS appearances; Price (1 with Tampa Bay in 2008 as a rookie reliever), Scherzer (1 with Detroit in 2012), Verlander (2 with Detroit in 2006 and 2012), and the only pitcher in that group with a WS ring, Jon Lester (3…2 with Boston in 2007 & 2013, and 1 with the Cubs in 2016). There are six more pitchers making $20M or moreannually; Hamels, Sabathia, Cain, Tanaka, Zimmerman, and Cueto. Four of these pitchers have WS appearances, Hamels (2 with Phillies in 2008-2009), Sabathia (1 with Yankees in 2009), Cain (2 with SF in 2010 and 2012), and Cueto (1 with Royals in 2015).
    .
    Of the eight with WS appearances, Lester is the only pitcher to win with two teams, the one he was drafted by (Red Sox) and the one he signed as a FA (Cubs). Price, Verlander, Hamels, and Cain also made the WS with the team that drafted them. One was a FA (Sabathia), and two were with teams they were traded to (Scherzer and Cueto). Cueto was the only deadline trade pitcher to make it to the WS in this group. Of that group, 4 appeared in multiple WS (Verlander/Lester/Hamels/Cain), and all four appeared in multiple WS with the team that drafted and originally signed them. Only Lester went on to win with another team.
    .
    It would appear to me that the best results come from the combination of pitchers and the teams that drafted them, rather than via deadline trade or FA. IMO, Friedman is doing it correctly by stockpiling the farm with potentially outstanding starting pitching, and waiting for it to develop, rather than signing FA pitchers or trading those prospects. I know a lot of FAZ critics wanted the Dodgers to go after Sonny Gray in 2015. That would not have worked out too well back then. So which #2 is available? It is easy to complain, but determining a solution is not as easy. Chris Archer and Jose Quintana seem to be the two closest to the #2 level that may be available. And no, you are not going to get either one with a package of Grandal/SVS/Kike’/Hatcher/AGon/ Thompson/Toles. Not only is it not comparable value in terms of baseball talent or financial cost; there are not enough 40 man slots open to fill 5 or 6 or 7 players. So the idea of quantity for quality trade is not going to come unless you include players not on the 40 man; in other words high level prospects. Think Cole Hamels and Chris Sale. Trades for Archer and Quintana are going to start with some combination of Urias/Bellinger/Verdugo/Buehler/White/Alveraz. How many of those are you willing to move for a chance. You might be willing to trade high level prospects for either because of their current contracts, but how high and how many?
    .
    FAZ traded Cotton/Montas/Holmes for a chance with Hill. They almost got to the finish line. I know close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, but they did not leverage their future for that chance. I am okay with the decision. Regardless as to how well any of the three do with the A’s, none of the three would have given the Dodgers a chance last year or this year, and probably not next year or the year after that. That is the cost for a pitcher that was leading the league in ERA, regardless as to how fragile.

15. From Houston Mitchell of The LA Times
    –
    The e-mails have been coming in really fast, and very furious. “This team will never win.” “Management obviously doesn’t have winning as a priority.” “The season is basically over at this point.”
    –
    Those are actual quotes from actual e-mails I received Friday and Saturday after the Dodgers got blown out by Arizona twice.
    –
    Now, most of you are still on board with the Dodgers, and realize that you can’t really judge anything by an 18-game stretch. So, this next part is not for you. You can go ahead and skip to the next section of this newsletter. I will meet you there after I talk to the 20% or so of Dodgers Dugout subscribers who seem to think that 2017 is a disaster,
    –
    Now, most of you are still on board with the Dodgers, and realize that you can’t really judge anything by an 18-game stretch. So, this next part is not for you. You can go ahead and skip to the next section of this newsletter. I will meet you there after I talk to the 20% or so of Dodgers Dugout subscribers who seem to think that 2017 is a disaster,
    –
    OK, you 20%: Calm down. Relax. You can’t judge a team by 18 games. I can pull an 18-game stretch from almost any team in history and make them look bad. But here’s the real problem: If you are giving up already, then you might want to find a new hobby, because following baseball is not for you. You are the type of person who complains about the taxes after winning the lottery. And I’d hate to be one of your children. “Son, I was really proud of you the last three or four years. Really proud. Told everyone what a big fan of yours I am. But, that last report card had a ‘C’ on it, so your mom and I are going to have to let you go. You are obviously a total loser, and we want you to find someplace else to live. Don’t worry though, we’ll be back as soon as you get an ‘A’ and say we were behind you all the time.”
    –
    Don’t get me wrong, because there are flaws on this team (Scott Van Slyke? Chris Hatcher?) and it is entirely possible that this team will be a disappointment. It is also entirely possible that they will right the ship and be in first place at the end of the season. It is far too early to tell. If you want to throw in the towel now, then the exit is over there. And there are no re-admit privileges.
    –
    Amen Brother!

16. MJ: “Bum
    I remember you mentioning Scherzer.
    And I remember you talking about the opt out, and back loading his contract.
    Dodger patch had the same type of idea that you had, about signing Cueto too.
    And actually, both you and Dodger patch, seem to have had a smarter way, to fill our rotation with another quality pitcher, without having to make a long contract agreement, so our young pitchers, wouldn’t be blocked.
    And neither one of you, have the info the front office has, or the experience they have either.”
    .
    Well before you give the job to Bum or Dodgerpatch, consider this:
    .
    Scherzer is signed through his age 36 season with his current $210M/7yr contract, it runs for another 4 years after this year. While Scherzer has looked good the first two years of the contract, WILL IT CONTINUE???
    .
    Cueto is signed through his age 35 season and owed another $84M after this season and an additional $5M to buyout his age 36 season. His current ERA is 5.25!!
    .
    Backloading Scherzer’s contract makes it HARDER to move him if he starts sucking. Opt-outs benefit the player ONLY, what is the current betting line on Cueto opting out?

    1. Boxout

       Both Bum and Dodger patch, wasn’t going to resign them, after their opt out, so the Dodgers wouldn’t have to pay all of the money, that is back loaded.

       And at least these two pitchers, pitch well enough, to want to opt out, after two years, unlike Kazmir.

       1. And I am meaning an opt out, after two years, if that wasn’t obvious.

          And it is probably to early, to worry about Cueto.

       2. Why would Scherzer accept a back-loaded contract with an opt-out?

    2. It was the Nats that back loaded their contract offer that Scherzer accepted. I wanted to front load the contract so that Scherzer would opt out after two years and than go East where he prefers to live.
       .
       Contract Notes:
       Signing Bonus: $50,000,000
       $105,000,000 deferred to July 1st in each of 2022-2028 ($15M year)
       All Star: Gold Glove, Silver Slugger: $100,000
       LCS MVP: $150,000
       WS MVP: $250,000
       MVP, Cy Young Award: $500,000 (2nd: $250,000, 3rd: $150,000, 4th: $100,000, 5th: $75,000)
       After 2019, trade block ability kicks in

       1. OK that makes more sense, I ‘d consider an assistant GM job for you, but the FAZophobes would make too much hay with:
          .
          FAZBUM

       2. Bum

          Why would you want to front load it and pay more money?

          A pitcher is always going to opt out, on there performance, not the first two years, of the money they will make.

          Let the other team, that wants to sign them, after the opt out, to pay most of the money.

17. Here’s our complete Prospect Team of the Week:
    .
    C: Will Smith, Rancho Cucamonga Quakes (Class A Advanced). Dodgers’ No. 14 prospect)
    7 G, .440/.548/.920, 4 R, 3 2B, 3 HR, 6 RBIs, 5 BB, 5 K, 4 SB
    .
    Smith tallied a hit in all seven games last week for the Quakes, with six of his 11 hits going for extra bases. Three of those hits were home runs, largely thanks to his first career multi-homer game on Sunday, and he also stole four bases in as many attempts. And though he started a majority of his games behind the plate, Smith started two games at second base, as well as one at the hot corner.

    1. Obviously I didn’t include the complete list.

    2. AC, when do you think Smith will move up?

18. Stewart is in the long-toss phase of his throwing program and is scheduled to start throwing off a mound next week. Stewart said he has been told May 20 is the target for him to be pitching in games for one of the Dodgers’ minor-league teams.

19. I think this was from MLB Rumors:
    .
    A Major League team can control a player for six seasons after the player accrues 172 days of service time. As long as they call him up sometime after April, they can play him as much as they want without the risk of losing a year of control.

    Dodgers left-hander Julio Urias “might” make his first big league start of 2017 in the coming week, manager Dave Roberts said Saturday (via Ken Gurnick of MLB.com). Urias would step in for Alex Wood, who Gurnick notes would return to the bullpen after making a start in place of the injured Rich Hill on Friday. The 20-year-old Urias tossed 5 2/3 scoreless innings and 93 pitches Friday with Triple-A Oklahoma.
    .
    As for Hill, who has dealt with chronic blister issues since last year, he has “tinkered” with a new grip during his latest DL stint, per Roberts. Hill has also tried to cure his problems with pickle juice and rice, among other methods mentioned by Gurnick. It seems the 37-year-old has made progress in his recovery. “It’s toughened up for sure,” Hill said of the blister.

20. Mark, the font is getting too small IMO. I’m eating carrots but…

    1. Bum

       Mark has some subliminal thing going on here, and I think it has something to do, with FAZ.

       1. MJ, I am missing the subliminal message. Mark is pretty “in your face” with those that are second guessing FAZ. I think Mark is aware that FAZ will readily admit that they have done things that didn’t work out as they hoped they wood.
          .
          I think FAZ have made good and bad decisions and the good ones have positioned the Dodgers to have a better chance to get to the WS perennially and their bad ones have not put the team at a disadvantage, especially financially.

          1. Oh my. did I really type wood instead of would. Yikes.

       2. MJ, please disregard my first reply. I just figured out what you were saying. Fine print may be subliminal.

          1. You adjust the print size on your computer. I have nothing to do with it. You can make it as big or as small as you want. If you are using Windows, hit the THREE DOTS at the upper RH side of the page and the drop down will give you the ability to zoom in or out.

             1. That works on a Chrome Book as well. Thanks.

21. McCullough has a good informative mailbag.
    .
    He touches on Bellinger coming up (don’t hold your breath,) Maeda’s struggles, and (more obliquely) the Dodgers hitting woes.
    .
    http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/la-sp-dodgers-mailbag-cody-bellinger-20170424-story.html

22. Wow. So let me get this straight. Anyone who complains about the obvious flaws of the Dodgers is instanly labeled as a “quitter” or deserter? If you point out areas that need to be improved in order for the Dodgers to win a championship then you are instantly labeled as “giving up on the season”. Can’t we point out flaws without giving up? It is possible for people to have two conflicting thoughts in their heads at the same time. Nobody should be telling anyone how to feel or what to think about the Dodgers. We all understand it’s a long season, and being a long season isn’t an excuse for poor strategies.

    I don’t hate the front office, but I do hate some of the strategies and philosophies they have on the game. Starting pitching is overvalued? Perhaps it is only because it’s the name of the game and if you don’t have it you won’t get very far, or will struggle to the finish line.

    Things don’t have to be this hard for the Dodgers. Look at things closely. Spouting off excuses like “Long term contracts to pitchers never work out”, or “there was nobody else available”. There were quite a few talented durable starting pitchers available during the 2015-2016 offseasons. Guys like Johnny Cueto, Jon Lester, John Lackey, Jason Hammel are just a few that come to mind. And no Cueto is not going to have a 5. something ERA the entire season.

    Those guys are expensive because hold onto your hats here, they are good, and you get what you pay for. Do you think the Cubs regretted paying 150 million for Jon Lester? You think they want that money back? Or perhaps maybe he was worth every penny based on the fact that he helped them win a World Series. We saw how dominant he was in the NLCS. Do you think the Giants regret signing Cueto after he had a Cy Young type season in 2016? He may lead them to another championship in future seasons. Yes some aces break down or are not worth the contracts they are signed to, but that does not mean teams should just forget about signing healthy pitchers, or forget about getting valuable innings from their rotations.

    It’s just common sense, and hey this is the Dodgers here. They have the financial resources to sign like 10 Greinkes, or 20 Cuetos. We’re not talking about the Rays or Padres here.

    Yet Dodger management decided to continually sign and or acquire injury riddled pitchers that can’t pitch more than 5 innings per start. That’s not a good strategy for long term success in a long baseball season no matter what economy you are in. This isn’t about value, or trying to reinvent the game. This is about not burning out your bullpen because the rotation can’t provide the adequate innings needed so that the relievers don’t have to pitch 5-6 innings every single game without their arms falling off.

    It’s common sense. If you don’t want to spend the money in free agency, then you have to either make a trade and gasp give up a few prospects, or call up the prospects and let them pitch at the major league level. Leaving the 4th inning strugglers in at the major league level only makes things harder for the club. Again there is an easier way to win, it doesn’t have to be this hard.

    The Dodgers need workhorses in the rotation and we should all be able to critique the club without being labeled quitters. There is no need to defend executives or their wallets. I root for the Dodgers, I do not root for executives, nor do I feel the urge to defend them as if they are my relatives.

    Let’s see how this season plays out

    1. Scott,
       –
       You evidently missed one sentence in my article:
       –
       Present me a better way and I am all in, but insofar as I can tell, this is the best way to build the farm while building for a World Series… THIS YEAR!
       –
       It’s easy to criticize, but most of the bitchers present no solution. So, here’s your time: Tell me what they should have done…

    2. Scott,
       .
       None of that made any sense, precisely because you don’t seem to base it on the following sentence that you wrote:
       .
       Those guys are expensive because hold onto your hats here, they are good, and you get what you pay for.
       .
       The problem is you often don’t get what you pay for. More times than not, they don’t return value on your investment.
       .
       Most, if not all, of the MLB teams look for 6 innings per starter. 7 is a godsend. Again, in your words “The Dodgers need workhorses in the rotation.” What in sam hell does Workhorse mean? Quick question: Would you rather have a pitcher go 7.1 with a 2 WHIP, or 6 with a 1.3? It’s not a hard answer.
       .
       You can root for the Dodgers. You can root for executives. You can defend whomever you want. But you should base your arguments on reality, not hope and illusion.

       1. Bluto,

          You’re a baseball fan and don’t know what a workhorse is? It’s a starting pitcher that gives a club quality healthy innings. The Dodgers are not getting that right now and haven’t had durable innings from the rotation since 2015.

          You can get value from good healthy durable pitchers. 4th inning strugglers with long history of injuries don’t provide that. You’re also forgetting the tole these 4th inning strugglers put on the bullpen. Reality is you need innings from your starters.

          1. Workhorse = Jeff Samardzjia.
             –
             59-76 – 4.11 ERA – 1.27 WHIP
             –
             $90 Million Contract.
             –
             I’ll take my chances with McCarthy and I’m two years in the hole…

             1. Samardzia was the most overrated player in baseball. I jumped for joy when SF signed him.

                I wasn’t happy when they gave Mcartthy 4 years. Not because I assumed he would be injured but because I was skeptical that he could repeat the one good half season of baseball that he had in NY.

                He’s still prone to the long ball but everyone has to be happy with what he’s done so far.

                During the offseason I said MCCarthy was the one who had value but there’s no way they can trade him now.

          2. Well, I know what I THINK a workhorse is. That’s a pitcher who will go 6 with a 1.5 WHIP, or a decent FIP (less than 3.3). That means, to me, Hill is a workhorse (without blisters of course.)
             .
             That’s for me, what do you think a “workhorse” is? I’m generally interested.
             .
             I remember people claiming Dreifort was a workhorse. Others may say it was Maeda for the first half of last year. Others may say Chris Archer. Even others Strasburg.

             1. Hill is constantly injured so no he is not a workhorse bluto

    3. Even though it is hard to reply when a poster starts with:
       .
       “It’s just common sense, and hey this is the Dodgers here. They have the financial resources to sign like 10 Greinkes, or 20 Cuetos. We’re not talking about the Rays or Padres here.”

       I will give it a go with the four pitchers you named.
       .
       FAZ takes over in November 2014, Lester is available, Signed a $155M/6 yr contract at age 31 with a full no trade clause prior to the 2015 season. Even though Dodger payroll in 2015 was $305M and Cubs was $135M the “common sense” thing to do was get in a bidding war with the Cubs? I guess if someone believes the Dodgers have the financial resources for “10 Greinkes, or 20 Cuetos” and the Cubs are the Rays or Padres, OK.
       .
       Hammel played for the Cubs from 2014 through 2016. I guess Dodgers could have outbid the Royals $18M/2 yr contract for 34 yr old Hammel this offseason but his current 5.30 ERA wouldn’t help much.
       .
       Lackey wanted to play for the Cubs as I recall, but you wanted to sign 37 year old Lackey for $32M/2 yrs? Sounds like a FAZ move, except FAZ wouldn’t have given up the first round pick. Hindsight is 20/20 and he was pretty good year in 2016. This year’s 4.88 ERA and 1 and 3 won/loss record, not so much.
       .
       Cueto had rumored elbow issues and the 30 yr old signed a $130M/6 yr contract with the Midgets. Even though Dodger payroll in 2016 was $279M and Midgets $183M the “common sense” thing to do was get in a bidding war with the Midgets? How good is your crystal ball on that 5.25 ERA? How about that elbow?
       .
       What were your next choices, get in a bidding war with the DBags for Greinke? Boston for Price? It’s always fun to look at the high priced successful free-agent signings and say your team should have signed them. But when those high priced signings/trades don’t work out it has long-term effects, EVEN IF YOU ARE THE DODGERS!

       1. Damn, you are good Boxout. Where do you find all of the time and dollar parameters to lay down. I can think about all of those deals and remember I was glad the Dodgers didn’t do them but only in glittering generalites. Love your point by point specifics which gets to the nubbins. Verdict awarded in your favor.

23. Hey Mark,

    I just did. There were several talented durable pitchers available on the market that wouldn’t have cost any prospects. Yes they were more expensive but hey the Dodgers can afford it being the richest club in mlb.

    Otherwise you leave the 4th inning strugglers on the field while the kids develop on the farm and that can get really frustrating.

    1. What’s frustrating?
       .
       The Dodgers played the Cubs tough in the NLCS in a season where Kershaw was lost for 2 months. They have a top farm system, a front office (that you may not appreciate) that’s widely admired in MLB, and a good media market.
       .

       1. Bluto

          Scott didn’t say, he hated the front office.

          He just doesn’t like, some of their strategies.

          And we probably wouldn’t have got that far, without our young pitchers, stepping up, after these free agent pitchers they signed, didn’t stay on the field.

          Also the team stepped up after Kershaw went down, and they had one of the top offenses in the National league, during that time.

          And Roberts, and his coaches, were also a big part of what happened last year.

          1. I didn’t say Scott hated the front office. Who even implied that.
             I didn’t say Roberts didn’t have a role. Who even implied that?
             The presence and performance of the Dodgers young inexpensive pitching is, in many ways, why starting pitching could be said to be overvalued.

             1. Well done Bluto, both here and above. To the point and precise without creating implications of communications that don’t exist.

    2. OK, let’s review the ones you presented:
       –
       Johnny Cueto – Cueto is not going to have a 5. something ERA the entire season. Yeah, it might be 6.00. Look Cueto had a great year last year, but I think he will crash and burn. My opinion – I believe that will be a bad contract. I don’t know what FAZ thinks, but I could see them being wary of him.
       –
       Jon Lester – A great signing by the Cubs for 6 years/$145 million. The Dodgers might have been able to get him by paying a lot more, because he had history with Theo and David Ross who also signed with the Cubs. At any rate, to be fair, the cubs had just blown up their team and even with Lester, their payroll was $120 million. The Dodgers were almost $110 million more than that THE YEAR BEFORE Friedman came to town.
       –
       John Lackey – 20/20 hindsight! He was old but held up last year. This year, he is looking very old and Fans of the Cubs are very concerned.
       –
       Jason Hammel – The Cubs resigned him as he wanted to be there. I doubt LA could have signed him unless they paid a whole lot more.
       –
       It’s interesting that you mention Cueto as the Giants also traded for Moore and Samardzjia who are disasters… so far. It is being rumored that the Giants may blow it up like the Cubs and re-build.
       –
       The Dodgers also had $43 million a year in Adrian Gonzalez. When the Cubs signed signed Lester, the salary of the Cubs ENTIRE STARTING LINEUP was $56 Million. Add in the fact the Dodgers were paying Gonzo (I include Crawfish, whom they were forced to take) and Ethier $71 million! You can’t compare that.
       –
       I don’t know if you were one of the ones who wanted Sonny Gray, but that didn’t work out too good. There are always exceptions – Lester seems to be, but it’s a long deal. Will Theo sign Arrietta? I have my doubts. The Cubs still have a lot of good prospects – they will likely trade some for Pitching.
       –
       The Dodgers have lots of young arms on the horizon and I believe they will be fine this year. I told you the same thing last year when fans were raging against FAZ. I’m telling you the same thing now.
       –
       The trade for Hill almost worked – 1 game away! It might not seem like it right now, but the Dodgers are better than last year. I look at the big picture and don’t make knee jerk reactions after 18 games. Still, I am always presenting ideas to get better. The difference between 2015 and now is that we have lots of trade pieces. They could trade for a starter, but there is no way they trade Urias, Buehler, White or Bellinger. Alvarez, Calhoun and Verdugo – I think they could be had in the right deal for a stud young pitcher… but there aren’t many. Teams overvalue them.
       –
       What Bluto said!

    3. Scott, LADodgerReport’s negativity and whining was attracting negativity and whining commenters. It’s one thing to say FAZ should have done X instead of Y and another to just say FAZ made a stupid decision and therefore are stupid.

       1. Thats your opinion Fred. I don’t think anyone is whining over at LADR. People just want the dodgers to do better and they can see like many people can that signing and acquiring imjruy riddled pitchers is a poor strategy for success. That’s all.

          1. You are a nice guy Scott, but, Fred’s got you on that one. You are not being objective if you can make your statement with a straight face and full belief in what you said.

24. DODGERS PLACE JOC PEDERSON ON DL,
    RECALL BRETT EIBNER
    –
    LOS ANGELES – The Los Angeles Dodgers today placed outfielder Joc Pederson on the 10-day disabled list with a right groin strain and recalled outfielder Brett Eibner from Triple-A Oklahoma City.
    –
    Eibner, 28, appeared in three games for the Dodgers going 1-for-5 (.200) in his first stint with the big league club. Eibner, who was first recalled on April 19, posted a .344 (11-for-32)/.389/.656 slashline with eight runs, a double, three home runs and eight RBI in 12 games with Triple-A OKC.
    –
    Pederson, 25, left yesterday’s game against the Diamondbacks in the sixth inning with right groin tightness and finished the game going 1-for-3 with a run scored, a double and a walk. Pederson has appeared in 18 games with the Dodgers this season, batting .220 with six runs, three doubles, a home run and seven RBI.

25. Lineup:
    –
    1. Toles LF
    2. Seager SS
    3. Turner 3B
    4. Grandal C (you know I called that)
    5. Gonzo 1B
    6. Puig RF
    7. Utley 2B
    8. Hernandez CF
    9. Ryu
    –
    Against RH Matt Cain who has a decent 3.31 ERA but has been lucky. IMHO

    1. Mark

       I am actually really proud of Grandal, his off season work, has seemed to pay off.

       He is hitting 300 against righties, and his over all average, is 250 right now.

       It took him a while to hit his third HR on the season, but that is because he is trying to be a better over all, hitter.

26. Even though I’m as frustrated with Rich Hill and his blister-plague as everybody else, still gonna go out on a limb and say someone is going to figure out how to keep it properly healed. Then look out, the damn guy is just nails and flat out filthy when he is on and healthy. Would YOU want to face him in the play-off? Hey, I know he’s old, but he is a young-old, not alot of miles on that arm. Let’s not bury the guy yet, or we might be asking for some ketchup with our crow come September.

    Also, gotta love Fox Sports, they just put out an article about the D-bags and Rock show taking over the NL West. Already kicking the Dodger Dog to the curb. I’m feeling kind of sparky because it seemed like we totally got our asses kicked in AZ over the weekend, yet we still only lost 2 of 3 and showed a pulse yesterday. Besides the butt load of problems everyone(including myself sometimes)keeps talking about that we have, figure this: The D-Bags and Rockies are playing lights out right now, we are still in transition, trying to figure some things out, and yet we are only 4 games out. 4 GAMES OUT! We can make that up in a week or less. And we will, The D-bag manager said the one thing he fears the most is injuries to his pitching or bullpen. Also, the Rockies now have 3 rookies in their starting rotation because of injuries this coming weekend if my info is correct. It’s already starting, the war of attrition, which we will win every time. Now, enough of this crap, on to Bagdad by the Bay tonight! (Still killin’ me Dodgerrick, that was classic)

27. I am a Doctor, well… a Water Doctor! 😉
    –
    In retrospect, if Rich Hill indeed rested all winter to let his blister heal, that may have been a mistake. I can see him back at the end of the 10 days and pitching 2 or 3 innings a couple times a week to build a callous. Maybe a gradual stretching out. Hindsight? 20/20. Who knew?

28. I checked in on some old friends today:
    –
    Jose De Leon still has not pitched.
    –
    Jose Peraza – .217 with a .256 OB%
    –
    Scott Schebler – .175 with a .257 OB%
    –
    Zach Lee – 5.63 ERA
    –
    I envisioned better!

    1. You could even, if you wanted to harp on the schadenfreude of it all, look at Grant Holmes’ numbers in the As’ (the Oakland team name is tough on grammar) system.

       But let’s hope they all do well.

29. Put Puig in the 2 hole and move everyone else down one spot. Agon clogs the bases in front of Puig, even though Yasiel has not been getting on base much lately. Eibner may be just keeping the seat warm for Gutierrez. I predict that Cain will get hit hard tonight and Ryu pitches a good game. Puig and Grandal are about to get hot.

    1. I agree. Puig has had luck with balls batted in play.

       1. Bad luck

30. Test

    1. Why are you testing me?
       😉

31. Does Puig have the best arm in baseball, and the most acurate

32. A couple of early observations:
    Ryu’s pitches aren’t crisp. Fastball doesn’t move much unless he elevates it. Hasn’t shown the curve much. Hitting 90 on the gun, but not much there.
    –
    Dodgers letting a lot of hittable pitches from Cain go by. Lolllypop curve, nothing fastball, some right down the middle. Plate discipline doesn’t mean letting everything go by – they should hit the hittable pitches.
    –
    Giants have brought up one of their top prospects, Arroyo, to play 3b due to injury and struggling offense. maybe the Dodgers should do likewise?

    1. Rick

       I saw that Ryu reached 91, and 92.

       1. But not much movement – unless he elevates

33. Dang, the Giants have that great starting staff which has the worst ERA in all of baseball – 5.02! Ouch!

34. Justin Masterson just pitched 7 shutout innings as OKC won 3-0. He allowed just 1 hit.
    –
    Move him to the head of the class!
    –
    Rios went 5-5 and now is hitting .364 for Tulsa.

35. Can we puleeeezzzee get a few hits and score a damn run! It’s Matt friggin Cain, not a right handed Sandy Koufax! We should have pounded this guy by now.

36. Ryu has stopped throwing his slider. Big curve, lots of changeups. Giant’s broadcasters said that their scouts say his fastball isn’t the same; they also estimated that he threw 65% changeups tonight.
    –
    Cain hurt

    1. Orel said Ryu threw about 35 change-ups.
       –
       I have always said that the change up in the best pitch in baseball.
       –
       The key is to spot your fastball, which he was doing.

37. I think Ryu pitched very well tonight – 6 IP, 1 Run.
    –
    McCarthy pitched 7 yesterday.
    –
    Kershaw almost always goes 7.
    –
    3 out of 5 starters are pitching meaningful innings.
    –
    Things are improving.

38. OK, we’ve got them right where we want them!

39. Giants’ pen still a problem for them

40. Disappointing loss there.

    1 run against Cain won’t cut it.

    Home plate umpire not helping in the 9th.

41. Ps

    Romo ain’t all that anymore.

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